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Author Topic: Four words for yes? What the khest?  (Read 12782 times)
K'Gor tai Reshtarc
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« on: 12 20, 2005, 05:47: AM »

My human alter ego knows very little about the Klingon language. What do you suggest as a starting point? Also i would be grateful for the next successive steps.
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« Reply #1 on: 12 20, 2005, 07:34: AM »

To which Klingon language does the one refer?  As for klingonaase, this thread contains more information than any other source I have seen.

As for learning the {tlhIngan Hol}, the first step is to ontain a copy of The Klingon DIctionary (aka “TKD”) by Marc Okrand.  It contains all the grammar and instructions you will need. Price-wise, used bookstores are best. If you can't find one at a local bookstore, you can order one online here.

Once you are armed with TKD, you will probably want to avail yourself of the Klingon Language Institute (aka the KLI).

I am also trying to compile a list of tlhIngan Hol resources outside the KLI. If you find any in your explorations, I invite you to add to it.


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« Reply #2 on: 06 17, 2006, 07:59: PM »

I am a newcomer to the Klingon Language, or the tlhingan Hol, but I like the it very much. As I am part Vulcan I find it hard to understand why there are four words for 'yes'. It is illogical. Not to offend Klingons out there, but there is really only need for two:
lu' and luq.
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« Reply #3 on: 06 18, 2006, 07:02: PM »

I am a newcomer to the Klingon Language, or the tlhingan Hol, but I like the it very much. As I am part Vulcan I find it hard to understand why there are four words for 'yes'. It is illogical. Not to offend Klingons out there, but there is really only need for two:
lu' and luq.
Why do Humans have more than four? Yes, yeah, sure, ja, da to name but a few. For one, the two "groups" of lu'/luq and HIja'/HISlaH have different meanings. Although they could both be interpreted as an answer to a question, they don't have to be. HIja' has the specific meaning of being an answer to a yes/no question and a command to start talking, which neither lu' nor luq have. The reasons for this could very well be over-use and consequent ambiguity and lack of clarity of one or a regional use of another.

Why does the one deem only those two logical and not HISlaH and HIja'?

lu' = yes, okay
luq = yes, okay, I will
HIja' = yes, true (answer to yes/no question)/Report!
HISlaH = yes, true (answer to yes/no question)
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« Reply #4 on: 06 18, 2006, 07:45: PM »

You do not see it properly. Any two will do, going back, I would choose Hija' and luq now. A Vulcan has one direct meaning for yes which is the word 'yes', and an indirect word, which are the words 'I will'. So, it makes perfect logic to only use two words. As for humans, they do not know how to preserve matter and anti-matter as of yet, so I don't think they will grasp the concept of logical meaning for the word 'yes' very high in thier priority.
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« Reply #5 on: 06 18, 2006, 09:39: PM »

So, it makes perfect logic to only use two words.
You measure the language of a race that is full of passion and emotion with a language of a race that has suppressed it's emotion because it  was too bloody? There is also the case of regional differences, clipped language etc.

As for humans, they do not know how to preserve matter and anti-matter as of yet, so I don't think they will grasp the concept of logical meaning for the word 'yes' very high in thier priority.
I see from your use of their language that you don't yet deem them worthy of  vulcan respect...
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« Reply #6 on: 06 19, 2006, 03:47: AM »

I for one hope to never be considered "worthy of respect" by a d'walsk. That being said, comparing and one race to another is likely an exercise in futility. The environment that a language grows in, probably has the most to do with specific intricacies. Remember how many Eskimo words for snow or for that matter Klingon words for war.

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« Reply #7 on: 06 19, 2006, 03:52: PM »

    Don't get me started.  Eskimo doesn't really have any more words for snow than say Engish does. We have snow, sleet, flurries, powder, slush, etc.  Eskimo is much the same.  And last I checked, Klingons don't really have that many words for war, I have yet to hear a word for war that did not have a very close English equivallent.  And I would very much love to have.
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« Reply #8 on: 06 19, 2006, 08:01: PM »

Maybe, and I denote Klingons when I say this, they have focused too much on 'war' as you call, and too little on the development of their language since ancient times. I am not even sure that Klingons (except for on Qo'nos) had a lanuage as such back in 800 - 900 C.E. Do you? As for your statement on 'words for war' as I have called it. Maybe they had no other sounds that were pronouncable, in the situation ofcourse.
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« Reply #9 on: 06 19, 2006, 08:29: PM »

I am not even sure that Klingons (except for on Qo'nos) had a lanuage as such back in 800 - 900 C.E. Do you? As for your statement on 'words for war' as I have called it. Maybe they had no other sounds that were pronouncable, in the situation ofcourse.

That far back, (and I admit to not being sure how long ago 800 - 900 CE is) I very much doubt that klingons had space travel so all Klingons would have been on Qo'noS. And if I am wrong and they did have space travel back then, well a culture does not develop space travel capability without the capability to speak and communicate.  Either way, your logic is flawed.   For someone who has admitted to being a newcomer to the Klingon language, you seem to be claiming an expertise that you do not have.  SoplaHtaHwi has already explained to you why here are several variations on words for Yes.  If you think that two are enough, come to that, why not just one word for yes?  Language, any language, including Vulcan is not logical and does not need to be.  That is the beauty of language.  and before you argue the logical nature of vulcan language, it has its fair share of irregular verbs - and any language that is 100% logical would not have irregular verbs. 

I am not sure what you are trying to imply with these posts.  Are you deliberately trying to be insulting?

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« Reply #10 on: 06 19, 2006, 08:38: PM »

I beg your pardon... Are you calling me 'insulting'? To be illogical, is insulting. To fight, is insulting. I, sir, have done nothing of those reactions! As for Vulkansu, we do have a logical structure of language. I must admit that Klingons are a different, illogical race, which I can see as a disadvantage for developing logical language.
A Vulcan has one direct meaning for yes which is the word 'yes', and an indirect word, which are the words 'I will'. So, it makes perfect logic to only use two words.
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« Reply #11 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:09: PM »

No, I am not calling you insulting, I am asking if you intended to be insulting.  I am not a sir, by the way, I am female (which is completely irrelevant to this discussion so don't worry about it)

Your own arguments and your own logic are flawed.  You say you are a novice at Klingon language but you are not willing to listen to those who try to explain things to you and you keep insisting you are right (despite all the evidence) and that everyone else is wrong.  You have been presented with a logical argumetn by several of us here.  You have ignored the points we made (whether you agree with them or not, they won't go away because you ignore them).  Instead you have focused on a perceived insult. That's illogical.
Your refusal to learn from your mistakes is illogical.  Your insistence on Vulcan superiority is illogical.  (Vulcans rule one planet, Klingons rule an empire - so now who is superior?)

In fact there is so much illlogic coming from your direction I can only guess that you must be in an advanced state of Pon Farr.

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« Reply #12 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:12: PM »

I can only say this: logical language
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« Reply #13 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:17: PM »

Okay, I understand that some of your arguements have been quite logical, but back to the proper conversation, do you not deem it logical or correct to have the words Hija' and lu' only for klingon word 'yes', in your opinion? Oh and as for your Vulcans control one planet - Klingons have a whole empire stuff is true, but lacks thought. Vulcans win battles of the mind meaning their one planet is just as strong as the Klingon Empire. Am I befuddling you yet?
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« Reply #14 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:21: PM »

Thank you SoplaHtaHwi, that is exactly the point I was trying to make, although I didn't know about Lojban.  A logical language would have completely regular grammar and spelling, which no natural language has, whether English Klingon or Vulcan.
(Ok, I know the last two are invented languages in reality but from a role play point of view they are real, natural spoken languages)

Kehlan

(quick addition as Vulcan Lord posted at the same time I did)  Why two words?  Why not one or three or four?  Why are you so hung up on the logic or lack of logic in klingon language?.
Again on an irrelevant note, I suspect you have a different definition of the word "strong."  I do not want to get into an argument as to which species is better or superior, I have several Vulcans on my crew and have the highest respect for them.  Vulcans and Klingons are strong in different ways and that should be celebrated, not condemned.  It was the Vulcans after all who invented the concept of IDIC - or have you forgotten its meaning?  I do wonder why you are here among Klingons as you have done nothing but criticise us since your arrival.
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« Reply #15 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:24: PM »

I am glad that we have come to a minor truse. I suggest you take a course on Vulkansu, as I am doing Klingon. You can really pick up some simalarities and differences between the two. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:24: PM »

Thank you, that is exactly the point I was trying to make, although I didn't know about Lojban.
the pages of the KLI are actually hosted on the server(s) of lojban.org.
Interesting to note is that lojban was once known as loglan... They changed the name of the language, as it was more logical than the old name (I guess...)
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« Reply #17 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:27: PM »

Logic, is indeed a virtue that so many many endeavour to possess.
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« Reply #18 on: 06 19, 2006, 09:33: PM »

Logic, is indeed a virtue that so many many endeavour to possess.
your use of the comma here is illogical when adhering to the few rules that the Human English (sometimes misnomed Federation Standard) language has.
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« Reply #19 on: 06 20, 2006, 04:02: AM »

 
    I would like to remind everyone that these forums are hosted by the Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps and as such all members are to treat eachother with respect and diplomacy.   Klingons who don't recognize Vulcans have their own kind of honor and Vulcans who don't try to understand that Klingons have their own sort of logic are both strongly advised to think very carefully about what they are posting to any of the forums, as well as reread the Posting guidelines.   
   
SoplaHtaHwI',
    A bit off topic, but yes loglan vs lojban.   Technically they are two distinct languages (or you could call them dialects though the vocabulary is not mutually intelligible most of the rules are.  Loglan was first published in 1960's in a Scientific American...  There was a schism in the students, some were disatisfied with the loglan creator, James Cook Brown.   They split off to form lojban using many of the same design principles, but none of the copyrightable materials such as vocab lists.  lojban instead generated their vocabulary on a weighted model of the most commonly spoken Terran Languages.   lojban is formed the same way loglan was, only instead of being LOGical LANguage they translated the phrase inlo lojban and used the languages own word combining rules to form lojban from LOgJi BANgu.   

   With the death of the loglan founder and the more open participation of lojban, loglan has lost it's influence.  So really no one works on loglan anymore.  Nowadays some Lojlanists say that lojban is a loglan, treating the original name as a common word.

    I could go on more a bout lojban, but I'm far enough off topic as is.  Cheesy Klingon Grin

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« Reply #20 on: 06 20, 2006, 10:49: AM »

My excuses to any toe I may have trod on.
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« Reply #21 on: 06 20, 2006, 03:55: PM »

   Any, that was not meant at anyone in particular, just want to keep things from getting out of hand. 

Back on topic, Logically, 'yes' should have as many words for it as the culture decides to make a distinction.  Merriam Webtster's onliine edition has listed four senses for "yes".  Let's just look at how many words for lojban has that can be expressed by the word 'yes' in English.

"go'i" - (answer to a yes/no question) Yes, The previous statement is correct as spoken.

"ja'a" - afirmativation

"da'inai" -  Yes, in fact.

".ie"  -  uhuh, yes, I agree

"je'e"  Yes, Roger that.  I heard you clearly

"je'u"   I feel that's the truth

"ju'o"  Yes, I'm certain

"a'a"   Yes?  you have my attention, go ahead.

"a'u"  Yes?  I'm interested.

"oi nai"  oh yes, I find this pleasant
"oi nai cai"   YES!  I find this very pleansant!
"oi nai cai ro'u cai" Yes! YES! YES!  (Screaming out during sex.)

    I could probably find a lot more if I kept at it but I have to go to work.  Let's face it hyommins use the word 'yes' for who knows how many things.  Is lojab not logical because it dawns distinctions between all these meanings that can all be expressed in English with various inflections on the one word 'yes"?

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« Reply #22 on: 06 20, 2006, 04:49: PM »

My greatest regrets for any trouble I may have caused among others.
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« Reply #23 on: 09 25, 2010, 10:48: PM »

(Vulcans rule one planet, Klingons rule an empire - so now who is superior?)

Vulcan is a member state of a Federation whose territory rivals that of the Empire in size.

Again on an irrelevant note, I suspect you have a different definition of the word "strong."

Vulcans, on average, are physically stronger than Klingons.

    Don't get me started.  Eskimo doesn't really have any more words for snow than say Engish does. We have snow, sleet, flurries, powder, slush, etc.  Eskimo is much the same.  And last I checked, Klingons don't really have that many words for war, I have yet to hear a word for war that did not have a very close English equivallent.  And I would very much love to have.

There is Suv, Qoj, ghob, HIgh, Qor, tlhaS, vay, lul, and Hargh for verbs; and vIq, may', poH and veS for nouns. Many of those have no English equivalent.
Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: 09 26, 2010, 10:15: PM »

They all have English translations though:

Suv   (verb)   fight
Qoj   (verb)   make war
ghob   (verb)   fight, battle, do battle, wage war
HIgh   (verb)   fight dirty
Qor   (verb)   fight, battle(very minor fight)
tlhaS   (verb)   fight, battle (relatively minor fight)
vay   (verb)   fight, battle (midlevel ferocity)
lul   (verb)   fight, battle (relatively major fight)
Hargh   (verb)   fight, battle (major confrontation)

vIq   (noun)   battle, combat (abstract)
may'   (noun)   battle
veS   (noun)   war, warfare

I don't see poH as being a noun for war in my dictionary, it's only listed as time. Do you have a source for the war definition so I can add it?
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