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Author Topic: Words for Genitalia  (Read 21159 times)
HoS'etlh
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« on: 12 06, 2005, 10:13: PM »

 Embarrassed

OK, before any barbs are thrown regarding my mind being in the gutter, I am creating an anatomical description of a body using Klingon words.

So, does anyone know of a list of Klingon words for both male & female genitalia?
« Last Edit: 12 06, 2005, 11:34: PM by HoS'etlh » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 12 06, 2005, 10:43: PM »

Un fortunately, Maltz (MO's alter ego) has been pretty tight-lipped about this. The only thing we have even getting close to this is {qIvon}, which is more like a general "naughty bit" than anything else.

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« Reply #2 on: 12 07, 2005, 08:49: AM »

What about "Qa'Honies" for males!!!

sorry...couldn't resist.
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« Reply #3 on: 12 07, 2005, 12:09: PM »

Thanks to Voragh, Ca'Non Master of the Klingons, we have the following 'semi-official' words to use:

------------------------------

Klingons - or at least Okrand's publishers! - seem to be somewhat prudish. As you can imagine, there has been speculation but we actually know very little definite. Years ago veteran Klingonist Glen Proechel came up with:

    *{loDjan}  "male organ, penis"

    *{moQDu'}  "testicles (lit. "spheres").  Variant *{moQHomDu'} (lit. "small spheres"}.

    *{moQ'a'Du'}  "breasts" (lit. "large spheres"}

    *{chabDu'} "breasts (female), 'boobs'" (lit. "pies, dumplings") has long been unofficial.  See Krankor's article in HolQeD 12.4 for a discussion of unofficial slang.

Okrand actually approved one such slang term {ngech} "woman's cleavage" (lit. "valley") at qep'a' wejDIch.  SuStel reported:  "I think I remember someone hearing about {ngech} at the qep'a' and beginning to pester Okrand about {chabDu'}. He didn't want to answer that one, and I felt for him."

The only definitely sex-related words we know of are verbs:  {nga'chuq} "sex" (i.e. "perform sex, always subject"; cf. HQ 1.3), {ngagh} "mate with" and - possibly - {Sep} "breed" used only once in KGT (p.89) WRT animals:

Klingons generally {Sep} ("breed") small animals such as {gharghmey}    ("worms").

Continuing the sequence, we have {yatlh} "be pregnant" and {bogh} "be born".

------------------------------

So there you have it. Now go out and spice up your Hol!

Qapla'
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« Reply #4 on: 12 07, 2005, 11:13: PM »

For anatomical purposes there is one other slang term I am aware of.  While not strictly genitalia,  the buttocks are generally considered a naughty bit.   So wether you are compiling a list of body parts for a language guide, or looking to translate hyoomin swear words for your nonKlingon friends.   The slang term for a rump is 'o' [literally, aft].

    If you actually try to use any of these to curse in character, I will make fun of you for swearing like a child of an Earther.  Please see Curse Warefare for information about how to swear like a Klingon should.
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« Reply #5 on: 12 14, 2005, 07:51: PM »

Note that Proechel's suggestion of loDjan is nothing more than a compound of loD man, male and jan device. There's nothing special about it, and in my opinion it's not even a very good description. I've occasionally encountered the slang term Hurgh, which has a certain...vISovbe'bogh.

We're mostly resigned to the fact that we're not likely ever to get official names for certain body parts. Keeping the dictionary "family-friendly" does seem like a reasonable goal to me.

That said, there is an actual word in Klingon for buttocks: Sa'Hut.
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« Reply #6 on: 12 15, 2005, 12:04: AM »

Quote
quoth Qunchuy:  We're mostly resigned to the fact that we're not likely ever to get official names for certain body parts. Keeping the dictionary "family-friendly" does seem like a reasonable goal to me.

I hardly think that providing names for genitalia drives a language out of a G rating. There is no shame in children (and adults) learning the proper names for their {qIvon}*. I for one would rather have the “correct” terms than see others try to fill the void up with rude slang -- that is what drives the lexicon out of the realm of “family friendly”.

I intend no offense to Voragh or HoSetlh, and appreciate their efforts in areas that TPTB are too cowardly to approach.


*”naughty bits”
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« Reply #7 on: 12 16, 2005, 05:44: AM »

I hardly think that providing names for genitalia drives a language out of a G rating.
As long as Viacom claims ownership of the language, it's not what you or I think that matters.

And why is everyone assuming that qIvon is any more "naughty" than, say, kneecap? It's listed as an unspecified body part, not an "unmentionable" one.
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« Reply #8 on: 12 18, 2005, 03:57: AM »

I do not believe that “everyone” does. I for one inferred the meaning of {qIvon} to mean one’s “unmentionables” by the context in which I have seen others use it. (“Klinthropoid see, Klinthropoid do.” }}: P )

This is how real languages develop and spread outside the lab. If those who create proprietary languages fail to provide clear meanings for their words, they run the risk of having those words used incorrectly.
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« Reply #9 on: 12 19, 2005, 12:00: PM »

This is the first time I have considered what qIvon actually means.  I agree with Kesvirit's point that not giving a clear definition allowes for unintended interpretation.

This particular interpretation of gIvon leads me to wonder if warp technology is as safe as they lead us to believe.  After all Kor's left qIvon ached every time his ship hit warp 8.  If that is the case I might not want to travel at warp 8 on a regular basis.  Consider what would happen to said qIvon after prolonged exposure to the  warp 8 ship.  Just a thought Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: 09 15, 2010, 07:14: PM »

This particular interpretation of gIvon leads me to wonder if warp technology is as safe as they lead us to believe.  After all Kor's left qIvon ached every time his ship hit warp 8.  If that is the case I might not want to travel at warp 8 on a regular basis.  Consider what would happen to said qIvon after prolonged exposure to the  warp 8 ship.  Just a thought Smiley

I thought his qIvon hurt because he was 150 years old. I mean, if everyone's qIvon hurt at warp 8, then I'm sure they would do something about it. Also, if it were that widespread, Dax couldn't have used it as proof of her identity.
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« Reply #11 on: 09 15, 2010, 07:44: PM »

Ah, I've long interpreted qIvon as meaning simply "body part", rather than any specific body part.  However, a search reveals that I was wrong; I guess I'll have to update my translation of "Amazing Horse" (in which I translate "its winkie" as loDnalqIvonDaj, or "husband-body-part") Wink
Anyhow, I certainly hope it doesn't mean anything too naughty, considering there is the old proverb "When the qIvon is cold, the blood is hot."

Anyhow, didn't they mention qIvon in the round of hokey-pokey where Marc revealed that the word for "rear end" was Sa'Hut?
Was abybody here at that qep'a'?  If so, what was it you put in, put out, put in and shook all about?

P.S.  I like the way -Du' {plural, body parts} is used to turn spheres into naughty parts above...  ...although I'm not quite comfortable with referring to a woman's mammaries as "great testicles" Wink  D.S.
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« Reply #12 on: 09 17, 2010, 02:16: PM »

I am 80% positive that qIvon refers to testes, and I suppose I'll use it as such until canon specifies. I have seen information claiming a qIvon is a Klingon body part, implying that members of other species don't have it. Another source reported it as meaning "knee." Both are obvious misdirections to me. Since Okrand has not specified what it is, I am almost positive that it wasn't used in that song, as that would require everyone to put *body part* in and put *body part* out and shake *body part* all about (and if my believe as to its true meaning is accurate, would require a lot of inappropriate pelvic thrusts that I will refer to as "the Elvis dance"). I'm sure somewhere would have been like
                                                                                                        buy' ngop: tagha' mu' qIvon lo' per 'oqranD
                                                                                                        Good news! Okrand has finally specified the usage of qIvon!
                                                                                                                                   cool
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« Reply #13 on: 09 17, 2010, 02:34: PM »

I don't think qIvon is a male-only body part. The section from TKW:

Quote
If the qIvon is cold, the blood is hot.
bIrchugh qIvon tuj 'Iw

It is not clear what a qIvon is, aside from the fact that it is a Klingon body part, so the real meaning of the saying is a little obscure. It probably means something like "Even though some parts of the body may be cold, a Klingon's blood is hot" - this is, he is ready for battle.

It's "a Klingon body part" not "a male only Klingon body part"... and this begs the question, why would a Klingon have cold balls and why would that become the basis of a saying that is common enough that it ends up in the book of Klingon sayings?

Personally I think it's some kind of internal organ, since Klingon's have redundancy it would make sense that the left one could ache when hitting warp 8 (at least for Kor). Marc did say Maltz was "embarrassed" to talk about it, but I have a feeling that it's the same kind of "embarrassment" Worf experiences when asked about the smooth-headed Klingons in More Tribbles, More Troubles. Since we have words for "mate with" (ngagh) and perform sex (nga'chuq) (which must have come from Maltz too) he doesn't seem to be "embarrassed" talking about sexual topics ("hasty mating on the battlefield"). To me this suggests that it's something deeper, more personal to Klingons, something they would want to hide information about but would be common knowledge within Klingon society.

It's not knee, that's qIv.
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« Reply #14 on: 09 17, 2010, 02:51: PM »

It seems I was wrong about it being mentioned during the Hokey-Pokey game.  I based it off of a paragraph I read on the mailing list, and which SuStel reports was written for HolQeD 14.2:

Quote
It was during the [qep'a' 2005] cabaret, and Krankor observed that it's difficult to really do the Hokey Pokey in Klingon without being able to say 'and that's what it's all about.' In years past, it's all sung in English, except for the actual names of the body parts. 'You put your {qIvon} in, you put your {qIvon} out...' and so on. So Marc asked Krankor, if the word, were, say {bop}, how would you use it? Krankor replied that he'd say {'e' bop} 'that's what it's all about.' To which Marc responded, 'that's what it is'.

Supposedly, the writer shared my previous misconception that qIvon simply meant "body part", rather than some specific body part that we don't know much about.

Thanks for posting that explanation, qurgh; I tried finding the proverb in my audio book version on iTunes, but it seems it skips some of the sayings (or has them in a different order).
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« Reply #15 on: 09 17, 2010, 05:17: PM »

That is an excellent explanation, qurgh. I still hold my original opinion, however. That reminds me of when Saavik said male Vulcans go through Pon Farr, even though women do, as well. Or when Spock said Klingons don't have tear ducts, yet Kahless cried a river.

If it is an internal organ, somehow, I don't see a Klingon being embarrassed for it. They are apparently quite proud of having three lungs, two livers; etcetera. I feel it is possible that perhaps it is something genital related, but not genitals themselves. You pointing out that it is specified as a "Klingon" body part could mean it cognates to English "gonads," which refers both to testes and ovaries. There are some tribal cultures (one in Papau New Guinea comes to mind) that have absolutely no qualms about discussing the act of mating itself, but feel that referring to genitals or associated processes is taboo if not outright forbidden. At this point, I feel that all of the theories are possible (except the one concerning qIv [even though Klingon has several synonyms, I don't believe this to be one of them]).

It's "a Klingon body part" not "a male only Klingon body part"... and this begs the question, why would a Klingon have cold balls and why would that become the basis of a saying that is common enough that it ends up in the book of Klingon sayings?

That's like asking "Why is it insulting to say 'You wear a green hat' or 'You are a turtle' in Chinese?" or "Why do many dialects of Spanish refer to 'testicles' as 'eggs?'" What you are asking is the very heart of etymology itself. "Why does 'buy the farm' mean die? Why do we say 'Don't count your chickens before they hatch,' and why is so a so widespread?" Discovering the answer to the examples I gave would require research, which is the foundation of etymology. The more alien the culture is to your own, the less sense the explanation will mean to you. Perhaps the explanation has been lost to the sands of time, and no one knows why they say something, only that it is customary to say it at a certain time or to express a certain thing a certain way. Klingon sayings are no different. In the Klingon Way and Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, Dr. Okrand gives etymologies for many words and phrases, yet in this instance, Okrand deliberately says there isn't much information to go on, and even gives an educated guess as to the aphorism's meaning, indicating that no one is really sure: "It is not clear what a qIvon is, aside from the fact that it is a Klingon body part, so the real meaning of the saying is a little obscure. It probably means something like..." If, hypothetically, qIvon really does mean "testicle" or something related, there are all kinds of reasons it would be become a saying amongst the culture at large. I researched Chinese and Dutch proverbs, and some of them baffled me. Dutch proverbs mention buttocks a lot, and Chinese proverbs mention ancestors a lot. Some of the Chinese sayings were so obscure, old Chinese aren't even sure why something is said anymore, only that it still is.

In a related note:
I knew the word for "knee," but is DeSqIv strictly for pot handles or can it be used for an actual elbow, as well? If not, what is the word for elbow?
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« Reply #16 on: 09 20, 2010, 10:53: AM »

I guess this is a meta-answer, but I know Marc and I can't imagine him coming up with a Klingon saying that is: "If the balls are cold, the blood is hot". It would also push the book out of the PG13 comfort zone that Star Trek sits in if Okrand reveled that the qIvon is a sexual organ.

Also, the phrase contains "the qIvon" not "the qIvons", so the English translation has it as a singular noun. The description also has "a qIvon" is "a" Klingon body part, not "the qIvons" are "Klingon body parts". To me, this is more evidence that Okrand had a singular body part (or a body part that is normally singular in English) in mind.
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« Reply #17 on: 09 20, 2010, 01:45: PM »

I guess this is a meta-answer, but I know Marc and I can't imagine him coming up with a Klingon saying that is: "If the balls are cold, the blood is hot". It would also push the book out of the PG13 comfort zone that Star Trek sits in if Okrand reveled that the qIvon is a sexual organ.

Also, the phrase contains "the qIvon" not "the qIvons", so the English translation has it as a singular noun. The description also has "a qIvon" is "a" Klingon body part, not "the qIvons" are "Klingon body parts". To me, this is more evidence that Okrand had a singular body part (or a body part that is normally singular in English) in mind.

Sure, but the qIvon is a paired body part, as first mentioned in "Blood Oath" (which predates The Klingon Way by two years). It is another example of the writers making up words, but in this instance, Marc didn't give them an alternative. Marc then absorbed the word into canon. Also, the word is untranslated in English. As a result, it can still use Klingon plural conventions, i.e. it never need be overtly stated, similar to Japanese, which has no plural; so The samurai walked to the house, could indicate one or even fifty warriors. Now, when Jadzia was trying to convince Kor that she had been Curzon, she mentioned Kor's rib injury. That failed, so she brings up his "left" qIvon. If it was just another internal organ, it shouldn't have been better than the rib at convincing him, the implication that an aching qIvon is more intimate knowledge than an injured rib. The writers are notorious for this, making up alien words so something can be said on television. That is why Klingons saw petaQ and the like a lot, because they are supposed to curse a lot, but on television, cursing in English wouldn't be acceptable. Now, by saying that you "can't imagine" Marc doing that, are you saying he is family friendly or has an aversion to vulgarity? If I had those qualities, but I wanted to canonize a word without betraying my principles, then I would leave it untranslated and state I don't know what is means. That's just what I would do, and it is what Marc has done. To keep it in the "PG 13" area you mentioned, this is absolutely necessary. Am I saying he absolutely did it for the reasons I would have? Not at all. However, I see no other reason to have a word for "a specific body part not further identified," unless Marc is like "Why not?" and did it for the heck of it. Now, I have never met Dr. Okrand, so you know him better than I do. That puts you at an advantage; though neither of us have confirmation (or denial), since Marc dodges the question. Personally, I'd like to think that I am right; that it is simply an implied meaning. That way, I can actually use the word. We have plenty of words we can't use in casual conversation (have you ever used the word jolvoy' in casual conversation?), but if I don't at least have an idea of what qIvon means, I can't even use it in a Klingon-related story, short of quoting the aphorism or listing it as an injury or transplant a character had at one time. In animal names, we have animals that are decently described (mIl'oD is pretty well summed up by "sabre bear") to slightly described (a lIr is a nocturnal bird, and using metaknowledge, we can deduce that it is probably owl-ish), to even less described animals (I know nothing of the chemvaH, but it is implied to be ferocious),  to animals not described at all (what the heck is a 'er, anyway?). What I'm trying to say is that we don't need words that are specific in usage but have no specified meaning. mIn are eyes. I can use that. qIvon is... something. tangqa' is a bull-ish animal. I can use that. A to'baj is... something. At least jolvoy' means something (transporter ionizer unit) and I can use it, even if only talking about Star Trek. More meaningless words are a little depressing, so any meaning, even if only vaguely implied by canon, is preferrable to no meaning at all. But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the way I want things is the way it is, or even the way it should be, simply a preference and a theory that I hope I defended at least somewhat well. Do I make sense at all?
« Last Edit: 09 20, 2010, 02:20: PM by El Payaso Malo » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: 09 20, 2010, 06:48: PM »

I understand, I just think it's best not to attach a meaning to a word when we have no idea what that word means.

The main reason is, while you know that the meaning you have attached, others may not and will spread the incorrect meaning without knowing they are doing so, as seen at the start of this thread.

qIvon is only an unspecified body part. Nothing more. It can't be used to refer to something else, simply because the speaker lacks a word for it.

Klingon has tons of words that are practically useless. I heard Krankor complain about this many times at the last qep'a' and I agree. Unfortunately all we can do is wait and hope. I'm hoping that the current revival that Klingon is seeing will spur on a new book or something.

Oh, and while I haven't used jolvoy' in casual conversations (I don't have that many casual conversations in Klingon Cheesy), I have used transporter ionizer unit. But then I was discussing transporters with someone. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: 09 22, 2010, 01:35: PM »


    Speculation of possible biological functions of the qIvon if it is not genitalia has been moved to it's own thread in the Klingon Biology section.

    This isn't done to prevent it's discussion as genitalia, as it is certainly implied to be, but to provide open speculation on the topic to see if other creative answers can be found that would better fit an in-universe perspective, if that is possible.
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« Reply #20 on: 09 22, 2010, 01:49: PM »

I will be checking with my brother in reference to his first Klingon name. When we joined the Karizans, it was often customary to choose a name with meaning. This custom fell by the way side as these names could get quite long and unmanageable. However, his first name translated into something along the lines of Big Male Pleasure Weapon, although I don't remember the exact details. I do remember the name was not short enough to roll off the tongue flawlessly (puns intended) however it shows that there have been at least fleeting attempts at translation.
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