Klingon Imperial Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
04 20, 2018, 04:39: AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
The boards are having problems with email. We are advising members to set your secret questions and answers in case the board can't send email to let you reset lost passwords.
11897 Posts in 1665 Topics by 692 Members
Latest Member: smithassignment1
* Home Help Search Calendar Login Register
+  Klingon Imperial Forums
|-+  Klingon Language & Culture
| |-+  Klingon Religion & Beliefs
| | |-+  Can Klingon Gods be Killed?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Can Klingon Gods be Killed?  (Read 10038 times)
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 761


"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« on: 04 25, 2005, 03:51: PM »

[Discussion of further issues with the running of this site taken to private messaging -  Klythe]

In Any Event, As I Do Not Myself wish to Stray to Far from the Topic, I Would Counter the Original Title of this Topic: Klingon Gods, were they really Killed or Not? With the Following, Are the Klingon Gods Able to be Killed? This Question Could Well Answer the First... Because it Differentiates Between what is Mortal and What is Immortal, Natural From Supernatural Etc... Either way this is significant to our discussion, because We may not be Translating "Gods" Correctly... What Would a Klingon Consider to be a God? Would it be the Same as Humans Define (Or Fail to Define), The Term?

 
« Last Edit: 04 25, 2005, 07:10: PM by Klythe » Logged

Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
qoSagh
Warrior Bard of the Ontological
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1167



WWW
« Reply #1 on: 04 26, 2005, 11:52: AM »

I think the general term god or gods would be defined somewhat the same everywhere. Supernatural entities that have control over the environment of mortals. As for killing gods, well I am not sure. I previously posted about the book where gods died from not being worshiped anymore, and I seem to remember the story "The five billion names of God" in which a monestary that had been collecting the names for centuries bought a computer to speed up collection. They believed that finding the last name would bring the end of the world and move us all onto something better, not specifically killing God but at least changing our relationship with God.

As for the Klingon gods, we only have the anticdotal evidence. Worf told Wesley that the Klingons had killed all thier gods. Now I will be the first to say that a conversation between those two is hardly a reliable source, but it is canonical by virtue of being in a TNG episode. In Barge of the Dead, didn't Torres meet the Klingon who killed the gods? I thought she did. I would think that the existance in the afterlife of one with that title, and the continued non-contact between Klignons and gods would be some sort of proof that detah is possible if not all ready completed.
Logged

qoSagh qlIStIy
meycha of the qaptaQ www.qaptaQ.org
Prothonotary of the Desert Rite
"I would kill the children of a thousand planets, just to see you smile."
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 761


"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« Reply #2 on: 09 11, 2005, 01:54: PM »

It has been some time since this Topic was addressed, however I Feel there is Merit to it...

While the Discussion between Wesley and Worf may have made the Concept of Klingon Gods being Killed Cannon, (As does the Story of the Forging of the First Klingon Heart Told During the Worf Dax Wedding), this may not Take the Precedent of being the "Truth" so much as being part of a Belief System... Star Trek in General has Carefully Avoided Attempting to Answer any Trully Supernatural or Metaphysical Discussions about The Existence of a God Head (Or a Pantheon of them for that Matter), though there have Been Multiple Examples of Trek Showing "Primitive" People as being Duped by Powerful Beings in to Worshipping them as Gods, or Even of Benevolent Powers Careing For Their more Primitive "Charges" in a Manor which suggests a God-like Relationship...

I am not Sure that any of these Beings were Ever Proven to be Immortal however, or Invincible... Anyway, I Like the Concept of Gods Losing Power as their Significance within a Given Culture Is Devalued...

There is a Great book (Well I Thought it was a Great anyway), By Neil Gaimon Called American Gods, Which Attempts to Address What Happens when People Begin To Substitute One God Concept For Another... Baiscally The "Old" Gods are Being Replaced by their Modern Counter-parts... The only Point of Mentioning this Book is that The Gods were "Dieing" Because they Had Been Replaced in the Human Psyche by Modern Technology and Consumerism...

In Terms of The Klingon Connection, I am Inclined to Point Out that There has been More Klingon Culture Created within Fandom then has ever Been Cannon... So it may be Fair to Suggest that these Questions are Valid (Especially Since the Majority of the Discussion is Taking Place between Two Priests of Non-cannon Orders...<Chuckle>...)

For Myself I am Inclined to Pose the Arguement that if Ever their were a People who might Successfully Challange and Kill their Gods it Would be The Klingons...
Logged

Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
qoSagh
Warrior Bard of the Ontological
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1167



WWW
« Reply #3 on: 09 11, 2005, 06:38: PM »

I agree that if anyone can kill a god then probably it would have to be a Klingon. An interesting thing about the ever changing paracanon, is that despite the Klingons reportedly killing the gods, they are still a very ritualistic culture. Klingons seem to have ceremonies for everything, even drinking tea.

This has of course been somewhat of a problem when researching elements for ceremonies. Regardless of what actual earth religion or organization I use as a resouce, the are all centered around the current existance of one or more gods. Writing ceremonies for a post god religion has often been challenging.
Logged

qoSagh qlIStIy
meycha of the qaptaQ www.qaptaQ.org
Prothonotary of the Desert Rite
"I would kill the children of a thousand planets, just to see you smile."
Klythe
ngem Sargh lIghwI' pagh cha'
Administrator
Thought Master
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1071


When a show of teeth doesn't work, bite deeply.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: 09 11, 2005, 07:20: PM »

I agree that if anyone can kill a god then probably it would have to be a Klingon. An interesting thing about the ever changing paracanon, is that despite the Klingons reportedly killing the gods, they are still a very ritualistic culture. Klingons seem to have ceremonies for everything, even drinking tea.

This has of course been somewhat of a problem when researching elements for ceremonies. Regardless of what actual earth religion or organization I use as a resouce, the are all centered around the current existence of one or more gods. Writing ceremonies for a post god religion has often been challenging.

    You might want to look into This study of the rituals of the Nacirema people.  They were once a highly religious society that has since become highly secularized and somewhat technological.   Keep in mind as you read that the Nacirema do not see what they do as ritualistic, to them it is just the way things are done.  Also, this was written half a century ago, the culture may have shifted slightly and it may have changed a few of the details of the rituals, but it is still a fairly accurate description of thier backward culture.
« Last Edit: 09 11, 2005, 08:42: PM by Klythe » Logged
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 761


"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« Reply #5 on: 09 11, 2005, 09:35: PM »

qoSagh,

You Know I Thought about Mentioning the Ritualistic Side of things in my Above Statement but was Pressed at that Moment for Time...<Chuckle>... It Certainly is Very Curious that An Apparently Aethistic or at Least Agnostic Culture Should be Soo Religious in their Attention to Ritual and Tradition... Though Even in Western Culture we Have the Beginings of Once Religious Ceremonies Such as Graduations, Weddings and Funerals Becoming much less about Organized Religion than about the Ceremonies themselves...
Logged

Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
qoSagh
Warrior Bard of the Ontological
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1167



WWW
« Reply #6 on: 09 12, 2005, 08:49: PM »

The study of the Nacirema was interesting, I will have to do more research because I would love to study the details of some of thier rituals.

As for the secularizing of our own human rituals, I suppose we are at a point in the development of such a trend. I have found more of this in England (or at least English web sites) where there is a cottage industry of civil celebrants. So I suppose that this might be a path that the Klingons have already gone down by the time we see them in the 24th century. Who knows what 300 years will do to human ceremonialism.

Getting back to topic a bit, I am not sure that mortal/imortal is a deciding factor in godhood. The ancient Egyptians had thier god-kings who were born, lived and died. Yet still the Pharoh was still considered a god. They also had supernatural gods as well, and I think some myths may have involved a least one god killing another, but I'm not all that up on Egyptian stuff. Christianity certainly has the concept of God made man, and death at the hands of an enemy is central to the faith. So there is non-klingon evidence of gods dying. Although both these cases depend heavily on the concept of an afterlife. We do know that Klingons have such a concept, although I don't know of any reference to the gods being present in the afterlife.

Perhaps that is why the veqlargh is so mean, he was left behind by the rest of the gods, or was considered so inconsiquential by the Klingons as to have not been killed/vanquished with the rest. That of course probably needs it's own thread, as I imagine psychoanalyzing the veqlargh could take quite some time.
Logged

qoSagh qlIStIy
meycha of the qaptaQ www.qaptaQ.org
Prothonotary of the Desert Rite
"I would kill the children of a thousand planets, just to see you smile."
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 761


"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« Reply #7 on: 09 14, 2005, 02:21: PM »

Good Point about the Human Historic/Mythic References to Gods Being Killed... I Think that the Impression I Had (From Worf's Comments) was that the Klingon Gods were "Gone"... (For the FASA Fans the Saying about Justice Belonging to the Strong Suggests at Least Ambivolence on the Part of Klingons about the Fate/Existence of the Gods).

 In Human Religions Gods Who are Killed in their "Earthly" Forms are Usually Reborn in some other Form... And Certainly the Whole Point of Being Pharoh was to Live, Die and Be Reborn as a Godling... Within Christianity there is Definately the "Promise" of a Continued Existence, and Even the Christ is Said to be Expected to Return... In Eastern Philosphy Reincarnation instead of Ressuerection Heads the List of After Life Promises and Many Religions seem to Proclaim a Cycle to the Whole Process...

So I Am Left Wondering... If The Klingons Did (Literaly or Figuratively), Kill their Gods, Does the Dramatic and Seemingly Ramapant Use of Ritual Suggest some Level of Over-compensation? IE, the Gods are Dead Now it is Left to Us to Really Make sure that Things are Done Correctly/ That Order be Maintained Not by Fear of a Reprisal of God(s), but out of Duty Because there are NO Gods to Hold us to our Beliefs?
Logged

Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
qoSagh
Warrior Bard of the Ontological
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1167



WWW
« Reply #8 on: 09 14, 2005, 06:52: PM »

Although this gets into revisionist history, I take the FASA quote about Justice belonging to the strong, to mean that whoever rid the world of the gods, was the stronger of the two in combat. Justice, in this case at least,  is a literal commodity that belongs to the victor in a fight.

Interesting idea that Klingons do rituals because they have taken on the responsibility that was once that of the gods. That could go a long way to explaining the rigid code of honor. Klingons have become guardians of their own destiny. That actually begins to flesh out my questions about the veqlargh, a bit more. Hmmmmmm.
Logged

qoSagh qlIStIy
meycha of the qaptaQ www.qaptaQ.org
Prothonotary of the Desert Rite
"I would kill the children of a thousand planets, just to see you smile."
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
Thought Master
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 761


"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« Reply #9 on: 09 16, 2005, 11:08: PM »

I am Curious about the veqlargh Point? Care to Elaborate?
Logged

Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
torqey
Klingon Conversationalist
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 133


An honorless klingon is like a profitless ferengi!


« Reply #10 on: 04 14, 2009, 05:24: AM »

[Discussion of further issues with the running of this site taken to private messaging -  Klythe]

In Any Event, As I Do Not Myself wish to Stray to Far from the Topic, I Would Counter the Original Title of this Topic: Klingon Gods, were they really Killed or Not? With the Following, Are the Klingon Gods Able to be Killed? This Question Could Well Answer the First... Because it Differentiates Between what is Mortal and What is Immortal, Natural From Supernatural Etc... Either way this is significant to our discussion, because We may not be Translating "Gods" Correctly... What Would a Klingon Consider to be a God? Would it be the Same as Humans Define (Or Fail to Define), The Term?

 
Worf, in DS9, did say that they were all killed...
Logged

3 Jem'Hadar battle cruisers? No problem. A tribble on the bridge? Call for backup and send your strongest warriors.
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!