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Author Topic: Discomendation  (Read 13005 times)
qoSagh
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« on: 11 22, 2004, 05:49: PM »

I know we have seen the basic simple ritual for discomendation, crossing the arms and turning the back on the dishonored one. But I have begun working on a more fomal ritual that holds dual purposes. It formalizes that previous quick action, but also acts as the severance between an individual and a group (be it a unit or the empire as a whole).

I had started thinking of this a while ago but picked it up again after some events in a recent role-playing game required the discomendation of one who was not physically present. It did not seem right to use anyone as a live proxy, because they would then be the recipient of the rite.

Now I am not all that sure that such a ceremony would be widely used, but it is not unthinkable to have a later formal ceremony. After all, we have the death yell, yet I also wrote (and sadly performed) a Klingon Funeral. We have seen mating rituals but also Klingon weddings. Oddly enough I have not been able to find many such ceremonies in any tradition on an internet search, which made me thinks this subject cries out for debate.



 
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« Reply #1 on: 11 22, 2004, 07:10: PM »

Can you describe the situation why the decision was made to discommend one who was not present?   It sounds cowardly and dishonorable, to discommend a warrior "behind his back".  Assuming evidence is incontrovertable and the offense repugnant, or the one to be discommended refused to appear in the one's defense, I think the more Klingon thing to do is to resolve to discommend immediately, and and put the word out.  Any who encounter that one in the future will perform the actual discommendation rite.   I do not see Klingons performing discommendations without giving the opportunity for the accused to defend against the charges.
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« Reply #2 on: 11 22, 2004, 11:21: PM »

any more on this - maybe a rite of dishonorment to a dead warrior?
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qoSagh
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« Reply #3 on: 11 23, 2004, 03:47: AM »

Well the crime was a simple one. The setting was the 22nd century (Enterprise era) a planet claimed by the andorians but that claim not recognized by any other government. Forces present on the Planet were Klingon, Orion, Human, as well as various "privateer" vessels. One such independant vessel, with a predominantly Klingon crew lead by a Klingon Captain was encountered by an Imperial Klingon vessel. The Captains of both agreed to act together in the furtherance of Klingon interests. The Independant Klingon Captain it turned out had no intention of doing so and had infact lied about working with his Klingon brothers & sisters, instead selling them out in return for money from the Orions. Game rules donot allow for imediate execution so he was transported aboard the Imperial vessel.

The Game Master being a feddie at heart is a big proponant of long trials. the trial was to be held on a Klingon controlled world. The trial was presided over by a less than conservative Klingon, who imposed time limits on the prosecution but not on thedefense. Just prior to the verdict being handed down, a ship penetrated the planet and transported the criminal abourd to rescue him.

Thus, since the verdict was never handed down, but the criminal ran away rather than face justice he has admitted guilt. He was to be discommendated. Such a ceremony would then be held in absentia.


As a side note I know of two events, one where a council was convened minus one councilor and once where a member was thrown out of an organization, where an empty chair was used as the proxy. Both events happened in Klingon clubs.

As for a rite of dishonorment for the dead, I had never thought of that. I simply would withhold celebration of the funeral, which is a symbol of honor, if asked to perform one for a dishonored one.

 
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #4 on: 11 23, 2004, 08:41: PM »

    I would think that fleeing justice warrants a much harsher punishment than discommendation and banishment.    Archer did not flee and he was sentenced to 'life' or rather more accurately slowest death at rura' pente'.   The original crime is pretty much treason, I'd have given him to Rura Penthe if he did not flee.   After he fled, I'd have ordered he be recaptured or killed, at the Bounty Hunter's discretion.   Obviously GMs aren't perfect, and there are game constraints in play.  I understand this.  I am mostly talking about what is more Klingon, to the best of my understanding.

    Still, I would have to say that if a warrior had a chance to dispute the charges and failed in the attempt or failed to make an attempt for reasons other than undue interference from him enemies or other parties with an interest in the warriors discommendation), I maintain that the council or the court would merely issue the sentence of discommendation, and leave it to each Klingon who encounters him in the future to perform the discommendation ceremony.   I think this makes the most sense, even for people who were present for their sentence and received the ritual from the council or court.  Any Klingons encountering the discommended, would perform the ceremony again until the dishonored warrior left.

   * Suddenly thinks of a whole new topic for Klingon Sciences *  Would tracking honor and careers for so many individuals have an effect on Klingon Brain Structure?
« Last Edit: 04 17, 2008, 05:51: AM by Klythe » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: 11 26, 2004, 04:47: PM »

Quote
   Still, I would have to say that if a warrior had a chance to dispute the charges and failed in the attempt or failed to make an attempt for reasons other than undue interference from him enemies or other parties with an interest in the warriors discommendation), I maintain that the council or the court would merely issue the sentance of discommendation, and leave it to each Klingon who encounters him in the future to perform the discommendation ceremony.   I think this makes the most sense, even for people who were present for thier sentance and recieved the ritual from the council or court.  Any Klingons encountering the discommended, would perform the ceremony again until the dishonored warrior left.
It all comes down to what ones position is on what is canon. I recall reading a Next Gen. book where there were some Klingon mercs who where dishonored in a "severe" manner. The author never got into what it was they did but the were stripped of their "Klingon Identity" as well as any vestiges of Honor. It was presented that one did not ask what happened but just accepted it and took their dishonor at face value. There was a name for it but like the title I can not recall. I also remember that one of the mercs regained his honor but it took death to do so. It was never stated but implied that death by honorable sacrifice was the only way they could change their status or lack of status if you will, or a life of Kahless like feats and even then it was not assured they would succeed.
Again, I wish I could think of the title. Gotta go through the books and reread it. Would be interesting to further this topic.


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« Reply #6 on: 11 28, 2004, 06:06: PM »

If we remember from our favorite unKlingon, his fathers discommendation extended to him & Kurn. I believ for either 3 or 7 generations. That took the line name away, and prevented them from addressing the council. I assume that is what is meant by taking away ones Klingon Identity. Even when a pro-federation plot device was needed to return his "honor", many did not recognize the new status. Aparently Gowron could do this back and forth, because after the second time, Kurn could not take living this way and wanted an honorable death, which of course was denied to him by his Federation lap dog brother.

Normally I try not to site house Mogh as a source, but in matters of Dishonor, they may be the best cannon source we have.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #7 on: 04 20, 2005, 06:36: AM »

Quote
Thus, since the verdict was never handed down, but the criminal ran away rather than face justice he has admitted guilt. He was to be discommendated. Such a ceremony would then be held in absentia.

As a side note I know of two events, one where a council was convened minus one councilor and once where a member was thrown out of an organization, where an empty chair was used as the proxy. Both events happened in Klingon clubs.
Since "Life Imitates Art" I put forth this situation.

In Klingdom we hold personal honor paramount. If one harms another in a club in a dishonorable manner then departs, well like you said they would be discommendated in abstentia, but how would that organization lable one so discommendated?

They pop up later somewhere else and put forth their past affiliation with an honorable organization, are accepted with open arms based on the organizations vaulted reputation.  Shocked

"Creatures of habit", the dishonorable individual then harms someone else and therby drags down the honorable organization's reputation. angry

In Klingdom we alow a character an honorable death, there should be a dishonorable death sentence that can clear the stain and warn others in the process.

Something suitably Klin. Any Ideas?  :blink:

 
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« Reply #8 on: 04 20, 2005, 07:19: AM »

qoSagh,

I Think that Simple is Good when it Comes to The Discommendation thing... And that If A Warrior is Summoned to Stand Before Judgement and Is Not Willing to do so... Then Their Honor has already Left them... And Nothing that we can Do can Puntuate that any More than their Own Lack of Integrity... Once Word Gets Out Few Would Help them, And Many Might well Kill Them...

As Far as the Game Goes... Is The GM Asking For Input on this? Or are You Just Curious About the Implications In General?


maq'mang,

Ok... So At this Point are we Talking Strictly Role-play orare we Discussing Along the Lines of Excommunication from the Club?

In Role-play Terms a Dishonorable Death Might be Described as one without Purpose... Perhaps Rura'Penthe (SP?) Pretty Much Already answers that...

But When it Comes to Dealing With Club Politics... Ohhh Boy! Suddenly He Said, She Said Stuff Starts to Poke it's Nasty Little Head Up... Because we are NOT actually Klingons...

The Only Thing I Can Imagine Would Be if The Various Organizations Leadership Were Able to Communicate well Enough to "Warn" Other Clubs When a Member Did Something Nasty... Or at Least For Club Leaders to "Verify" The Conditions or Current Standing of a New Member within their Previous Affiliation...

I Have Longed For this type of Repore Between Organizations, But Unfortunately Many Of Them Exist Specifically Because One Group of People Sees Things Differently than Another... (I Have Witnessed Various aspects of this Over the Years)...

But It Would Be Trully Incredible If the Leadership of Even a Half Dozen Of The Most Common Groups Could Have a General Meeting... Wow... How Kewl Would that Be? Not Specifically to Discuss Who's Been Naughty or Nice But Just to Get together and Chat... (Guess that is For another Topic though Huh...<Smirk>...)

In Any Event, Honest Communication, And Follow Through are the Only Ways that the Type Of Situation You Described Even Have a Chance of Being Addressed... And Ultimately If Some One developed Such a Poor Reputation within the Larger Fan Community that they were No Longer Welcome in any Group... Well... There's Your Death Sentance...
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« Reply #9 on: 04 20, 2005, 12:15: PM »

Since posting this, I actually finished the ceremony but have not used it yet. I intended it to be one of the shortest ceremonies in our book, it ended up the second longest due to the wealth of source material I found. The GM is not looking for input, but by my group doing this it puts the discomendation on the record for future roleplay.

This was intended for role play only, although I can see where a real life club political event would lead to a role play final act such as this. As for spreading the word among fan clubs, I agree that we just don't have that level of communication and I am not sure it would be good to do that if we did. Sometimes a member who does not get along well in one club may soar to great heights in another one, specifically because clubs are often formed from disagreements and scisms.

In the NYC area, we did for a while have a meeting body called the Confederation of Klingon Clubs, which was a meeting of the leaders of about 5 or 6 clubs from three states. We had parlimentary rules to ensure that all clubs were represented evenly by delagates who had to be from the command staff and able to make binding decisions. We were there only for communications and could not change each others rules or promote or demote anyone. We could mediate disputes only if it involved members of two or more clubs and all parties agreed to the mediation.

Oddly enough the group worked too well. We disbanded it because cooperation was so high that the idea of a specific meeting to cooperate was unneeded. By the end club leaders called each other on the phone jsut to chat, and everyone was invited to everyone elses events. Most of those clubs are now defunct, but for a while it was glorious.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #10 on: 04 20, 2005, 07:41: PM »

Sounds like a Pretty Kewl Group, And I Have Seen a lot of Decline of (Organizational), Klingon Fandom Since the End of DS9... Course we are More or Less in the Sticks here, So Likely there are Things Going On that I simply do not Know About... But it Seems like Many of the Klingon Sites that I Stumble Upon are Not Regularly Updated anymore...
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« Reply #11 on: 04 04, 2008, 08:42: PM »

While honoring achievements generally deserves a decent amount of energy utilized in recognizing the achievement or event, I'm not sure Klingons would waste their time putting a lot of effort toward someone who's dishonored themselves.  I think a simple folding of arms and turning of the back on a dishonored one (even figuratively if they're nor present) would be sufficient.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #12 on: 04 14, 2008, 04:52: PM »

There are many reasons for such a ceremony. The first is of course to add a certain formality to the proceedings. There is something about a fully staged and prepared for ceremony that makes one remember it better. Second of course is to add a potential activity to the list for the club. At the height of the qaptaQ we tried to hold a different ceremony at every convention. While there are similarities among them all, the need to have something different at different gatherings is important to keeps things from getting stagnant. There is also the fact that while Klingons do not generally abide failure, as humans playing a role, some of our human sensabilities often intrude or at least intertwine with our Klingon ones. In this regard, having the opposite of an induction ceremony shows that we are not fearful of admitting to who our members were, even if they no longer participate in our branch of Klindom. It also shows that we will stand up proudly and make such admissions as gentlemen, not sulk in the shadows spewing falsehoods and rumors. This is very much about reclaiming the dormant honor from a highly dishonorable situation. While it was written for role play, I have seen similar acts in fandom that were clearly done out of character, and this was an attempt to merge the best of both and abandon the worst of both.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #13 on: 04 15, 2008, 07:41: PM »

By all means, if a ceremony or ritual makes playing a Klingon more fun, then it certainly should be done!  I just have a hard time seeing the Klingons (in concept as we see in the movies and shows) wasting their time, resources, and energy on performing a ceremony for the dishonored.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #14 on: 04 15, 2008, 10:01: PM »

Of course one other aspect of all our ceremonies is that few if any are time sensitive. They are designed to be used at the earliest convenience to commerate something. This is due to the fact that as a Klingon, the needs of a battlefield or even general military movement would not stop for a ceremonial act. So in essence, the standard quick discomendation is done and then the ceremony is held at a later time.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #15 on: 04 16, 2008, 04:54: PM »

I still don'tunderstand why Klingons would do a dishonored one the honor of spending the time, energy, and resources required to perform a ceremony.  They are, after all, dishonored.

But again, that's in the realm of actual Klingons, not applicable for humans playing Klingons.
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