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Author Topic: Klingon House Structure  (Read 15617 times)
maq'mang
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« on: 11 05, 2004, 05:52: PM »

This is a post I made on the Klingon Line Families ListServe sometime last year and I would like to hear others opinions on the subject.
 
Methinks you were looking for a little more guidence than "do what you want". I would recommend reading Ford's Final Reflection for some insight on Klingon Houses or Lines. Most Houses consist of at least one person and go up from there. They pick a Name for their House and then a Seal or Logo. The House Leader or epataI is the "first" position and some have a proctor (A member who handles the day to day House business while the epataI is busy being High Muckety Muck) Some Houses go as far a electing a House Champion, but in my opinion and understanding of Klingon culture, that is a bit redundent for if someone was to take issue with a house it would be logical that it would be handled by the nearest House member, Klingons being what they are. Some Houses seek members any way they can but I would caution against this method for if one embraces the attitudes and nature of the Klingons, In their culture, you literally are "your brothers keeper" as in what one person does reflects on all the House and vice versa.

KAG uses Honorifics for half promotions but for us mavericks or  independents (as well as a few other organizations out there) honorifics are used as indicators of ones level or "rank" in ones House. When I disiminate Honorifics to House members in my "area"it is based on their knowledge of "Klin" and their actions as a House member in relation to the rest of "Klingdom". I hope this helps and good luck on your undertaking for you get out of it what you put into it.
« Last Edit: 11 05, 2004, 06:00: PM by maq'mang » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 11 05, 2004, 06:40: PM »

Wow, someone who knows what honorifics are for. I have always hated the fact that some people get their honorifics from thier military commander and not thier epitai. Now I do think that someone who was advancing up the military ranks (or any professional ranks for that matter) probably would also advance in family ranks. But this would be because they would bring more glory and notice to the house.

Politics aside, think about what it does for the Bush family to know that they are the firs family to have father/son presidents in amost 200 years, and only the second in history. So while the election as president in and of itself does not entitle George W. to a higher honorific, the circumstances surrounding the presidency and the attention that the president gets as well as the act the president does, probably would entitle him to such a promotion.

So if A Klingon was promoted to Captain and given a ship of his own, the family would gain status and prestige as he does what captains do, so would end up promoting him. But the Honorific would not come automatically or from the military.

Also as for house logo's FASA always said that not all houses had them, but that the Emperor handed out the right to have a personal one as a reward. Although it doesn't keep with my usual Klingon Arogancey theory, it would be kind of fun to be in a house that had not yet distinguished itself but was strongly working towards such a goal.
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« Reply #2 on: 05 19, 2006, 08:07: AM »

What about those who are alone in their house so far?

Like me for instance. So far I am pretty much the only one in my House. I am currently a vestai, but should I be an epitai or something?

Does it matter that I carry two house names? Kal'Shika vestai-ram'Iw sI'tulsa. Should my line mother in the adopted House give me a higher honorific for my biological House?
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« Reply #3 on: 05 22, 2006, 06:00: PM »

    Personal honorific, military rank and rank in house each appear to be separate things.   You can be epetai of your house as a vestai or zantai, but that does not entitle you to use the epetai honorific as part of your name.   When Krenn founded his own house he did not claim to be Krenn epetai-Rustazh, I don't think during the course of the book he ever was referred to as epetai, but he did use it to 'ennoble' Dr. Tagore, who had no military or house standing in the Klingon Empire...

    How the personal honorific is earned is unknown.  It could be age, reputation, renoun, position, influence or something else entirely. 
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« Reply #4 on: 05 22, 2006, 08:11: PM »

Personal honorific, military rank and rank in house each appear to be separate things. You can be epetai of your house as a vestai or zantai, but that does not entitle you to use the epetai honorific as part of your name. When Krenn founded his own house he did not claim to be Krenn epetai-Rustazh, I don't think during the course of the book he ever was referred to as epetai, but he did use it to 'ennoble' Dr. Tagore, who had no military or house standing in the Klingon Empire...

 How the personal honorific is earned is unknown. It could be age, reputation, renoun, position, influence or something else entirely.

There is another "Dimension" to this discussion as well, which is... Club specific policiy...

If One belongs to an Organization, or Club which recognizes/uses Honorifics, chances are that there is a policy in place already.

If on the other hand One is not a part of a group which normally uses Klingon Honorifics, (A Klingon in a Federation Fan Club or SIMM perhaps, or someone who is just getting into Klin-dom (Klingon Fandom), and has not yet invested in their history and full character development. Or maybe someone who simply likes playing a Klingon but does not belong to a group)... I would argue that Honorifics may not even be a part of the discussion...

Remember, that Honorifics are  a Fanon embraced idea, we do not see them in Canon sources (Unless you count the heavily debated title of DaHar Master). So from this perspective Honorifcs are somewhat "Meaningless" unless put into a relevant context. (Such as the Policies of a Club or other Organized structure).

Overall, to avoid the "Cheese-Factor" I would encourage that Honorifics be used sparringly, and unless granted to you by One of a superior station or Rank, that individuals should probably err on the side of conservatisim.

This, to my mind at least, is very much like Rank. We can all go around calling ourselves "Admiral", "General" "Grand Vizer", "Thought Admiral" or whatever we want because it is all make-believe after all. But... When a Rank, (Or an Honorific) is granted in recognition for hard work, by those who have seen that hard work in action, then it becomes somewhat more meaningful...

My Two heavily opinionated Darseks...

maj! (Good)...
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« Reply #5 on: 10 19, 2008, 06:03: PM »

It has been a while since I have stalked these halls and since I started this thread way back when, I thought I would post and see if I could resurrect it. We spoke of Honorifics but never listed them. Here they are in the order they are granted.

1) taI (The One)

2) vestaI (The One of Battle or Battlelord)

3) sutaI (The One of Discipline or Maturity)

4) zantaI (The One of Destiny or Fate)

5) epataI (The One who is Honored)
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« Reply #6 on: 10 20, 2008, 04:00: AM »

Ah, welcome back, maq’mang! Now I have a name to put with those vaguely familiar bootsteps I heard clunking down the hallway.

Abbot, I will see your two heavily opinionated DarSeqmey and raise you two more.

Quote
1) taI (The One)

2) vestaI (The One of Battle or Battlelord)

3) sutaI (The One of Discipline or Maturity)

4) zantaI (The One of Destiny or Fate)

5) epataI (The One who is Honored)

The second-nearest thing to klingonaase “canon” comes from an Arpanet (sp?) post that came out shortly after TFR. This list is often referred to as The Wiener Primeval after compiler Stewart Wiener.  Anyone wanting to refer to it is advised to copy it and save it as text; it has come and gone from many web pages over the years, and each time I want to cite it the link I used last time is gone and I get to find it all over again. 

While it correlates with my repeated reading and understanding of TFR, it is incomplete.  Whether this is because the book relies heavily on the “show don’t tell” dictum or whether it is because of the emic (insider’s view) presentation of an alien culture is unclear. Perhaps Wiener did not wish to make further conclusions on based on inadequate or missing evidence.

I have never seen the above list of definitions, and I believe that whoever made it is doing just that. Where did this list come from? Did it originate from a gaming system, was it created for use by a particular organization or house/line...?  Klinfolk are known for taking vaguely defined precedents and expanding upon them. The key is to make them internally consistent while contradicting precedents as little as possible. Will the one enlighten us as to its history so that we may have some sort of context in which to argue it further?

I also ask why you use a capital “I” at the end of each word.
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« Reply #7 on: 10 31, 2008, 03:05: AM »

Simple answer on Why The I is to refer you to any edition of the Klingon Dictionary. No lower case i. All uses are I.
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« Reply #8 on: 10 31, 2008, 01:57: PM »

Simple answer on Why The I is to refer you to any edition of the Klingon Dictionary. No lower case i. All uses are I.

Note that the transcription used in The Klingon Dictionary also has only capital S, and entirely lacks z. There is no example of a syllable ending in two vowels like -aI; one would expect instead -ay.

Keep in mind, though, that The Klingon Dictionary describes tlhIngan Hol. The honorifics you posted are associated with Klingonaase, an entirely different language. For Klingonaase, John Ford's The Final Reflection is the appropriate spelling reference.  In that book, spelling follows English conventions: proper names and sentence-initial words get capitals, and everything else is lower case.
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« Reply #9 on: 11 02, 2008, 09:03: PM »

Not a big fan of Grand Vizer here, I tend to use my rightful title of Grand Poobah, but only when attending the secret wink winks at the you know where.
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