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Author Topic: Klingon homosexuality  (Read 85390 times)
Kesvirit
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« Reply #50 on: 07 18, 2006, 12:53: AM »

I see no “assuming” here. Nor do I see anyone being rude or obnoxious, promoting a double standard, or spell-flaming. In any argument, the burden of proof lies upon the person making the claim, and you need to work on bolstering yours. You say this thread is not worth your effort, yet you come back to it... If you are too close to the subject matter to keep from taking counterarguments personally, leave it until such a time as you can and move onto another topic.

In summary, the Forum Etiquette and Posting Guidelines state: “If you disagree with someone's opinion, that's fine -- you can agree to disagree. Never insult or attack someone personally just because they do not agree with you. You can defend your own opinions with facts, research, logical reasoning, and links to relevant material. That is the diplomatic way to handle things and is what is expected of our forum members.”

-=- Kesvirit
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« Reply #51 on: 07 22, 2006, 05:02: PM »

Well, I am late to this discussion, but I did read what everyone had to say.  My question is:

Does anyone know of anything specific in Trek canon that indicates a definite Klingon attitude about homosexuality, whether among themselves or not?

For example, has any reliable Klingon character ever stated flat out "Klingons think <fillinblank> about same sex relationships". If so, please name the character, and the episode/movie and scene in which this occurred.

My understanding is that Worf had a relationship with Dax.  If you do or don't think that qualifies, then please explain your reasoning.

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« Reply #52 on: 07 22, 2006, 05:43: PM »

Hello and welcome to what has been and will probably continue to be a rather heated discussion.  Most of this debate has been caused by the fact there is no canon information.

I personally don't thnk the Worf/Jadzia relationship counts for two reasons.

firstly Jadzia (as opposed to Dax) was female - and in my opinion a very beautifful one at that.  Speaking from a purely physical viewpoint this was a straighforward heterosexual relationship.  Of course, the symbiont did complicate things from a mental viewpoint, giving Jadzia the memory of being male in previous lives.

Secondly Worf grew up in the Federation rather than the Klingon Empire and thus would probably not have absorbed any prejudices that the Klingons may or may not have had regarding the matter.  He is not a typical Klingon.


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Kesvirit
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« Reply #53 on: 07 22, 2006, 08:55: PM »

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TPM...  For example, has any reliable Klingon character ever stated flat out "Klingons think <fillinblank> about same sex relationships".

Klingons are in general a contentious lot, and it is naive to think that that all Klingons hold the same beliefs about anything, let alone something as complicated and highly charged as sexuality. No one can claim to speak for an entire Empire in such a fashion. (Except for possibly a Chancellor or other highly placed personage on a diplomatic mission, but that would be more like claiming the royal “we” for specific purposes of negotiation/misdirection/stalling/whatever.)

I agree with Kehlan that Worf/JDax relationship was not homosexual in any way, both for the reasons she stated and because it is my understanding that the symbiont itself does not have a sex. The biological sex of the combined individual belongs solely to the host.

-=- Kesvirit
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qoSagh
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« Reply #54 on: 07 22, 2006, 11:08: PM »

Wow, while I was on vacation, we moved into new territory. I never thought of how a Trill would muck things up. I think that Trills are considered to be the sex of their current host, thus Jadzia Dax would have been considered female, while Kurzon Dax would have been male. I actually think it would have been much more fun and interesting if DS9 had made the next host Male instead of Ezri Dax, but that is my opinion. Either way thinking of Jadzia as male is just as silly as thinking of Worf as Klingon (OK it was a cheap shot).I have to agree with the thought that the Worf/Dax relationship was not a homosexual one.

This subject, as with most of the topics on these forums, is debated because of there being no cannon source material. In a way, anything definitive from Paraborg, would make debate a moot point. That is one of the best things about these forums (and Klingon fandom in general), is that we debate those subjects that Paraborg has never seen fit to address. But I think that almost every post has been about giving Klingon cultural examples, no one has resorted to simple one word YES or NO posts.

Being disagreeable is a Klingon virtue, doing such with a flair of honor is a Klingon artform.
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« Reply #55 on: 07 25, 2006, 02:07: AM »

I just happened upon this discussion. Wow! Much debate.  To directly answer qoSagh's post: No. There is not any (Canon) example of homosexuality in Klingon culture. Heck, the only two examples I can recall in all of the Trek Universe are the TNG episode "The Outcast" (featuring the gender neutral race called the J'naii) and the DS9 episode "Rejoined" (which centered more on the taboo of two former Trill mates continuing a relationship in other hosts.)  My only offering is something inspired from reading this discussion; with previous mentions of the Greeks, I bring up a warrior culture and their perception from another.  In the stage play "Someone Who'll Watch Over Me, by Frank McGuinness, three men of various nationalities are held captive in a dark cell in Lebanon. They maintain their hope by using their imagination. One character recounts the only story his veteran father ever told him as a child:

"My father was a soldier during the war. He left a stranger. He returned a stranger. I could never tell him that to me, he was a hero. That suffering, his suffering, wasn't for nothing. We spoke very quietly about the war. Or my father did rather. How very frightened people were, but were afraid to show it. Don't show fear. Even if you're a coward. One night, out of the blue, I'd fallen asleep and woke up on my father's lap. He was crying. And he was saying to my mother, 'You must not tell what it was like there. You must never tell him.' And I felt the most terrible pain in my ear. I said, 'I am awake. And I have a pain in my ear.' He rubbed my ear. And he sat me on his lap and said, 'There is a place called Sparta. Brave soldiers come from there. When they have pain they show it by controlling it. Don't be afraid of pain. Don't be afraid of controlling it. You have been raised by a very strong woman. Sometimes the bravest men behave like woman. Before the Spartan's went into battle, THEY COMBED EACH OTHERS HAIR. The enemy laughed at them for being- effeminate. But the Spartans won the battle.'"
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« Reply #56 on: 07 27, 2006, 12:39: AM »

OK I’m back. I just can’t help myself! I’ll try to be less aggressive.


When the humans (or the Federation as a whole) deal with a new race, it is as equals. They embrace their differences, and work toward that new race joining the federation.

If the UFP embrace their differences and work toward them joining the federation, then surely that joining process would also bring about change to ALL beings culture and attitudes involved.

When the Klingons meet a new race, it is always as adversaries. Klingons either kill that race and take what they need through conquest, or subjugate that race as servants and take what they need through conquest. There is most likely no celebrations of each other’s differences.

They may well have tried to do just that with the humans in the early series but they have not succeeded and the contact they have had with the federation has made the Klingons a much more “agreeable” species to deal with in later series.

Change in all species is inevitable and part of evolution. If they were a “real” species they would never remain as you are suggesting.

The qaptaQ way of life is often summarized by the principle of Nal Komerex Khesterex: That which does not grow, shall wither and die.

Cheers
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« Reply #57 on: 07 27, 2006, 08:06: PM »

Yes, the qaptaQ way of life is often summarized by the principle of Nal Komerex Khesterex: That which does not grow, shall wither and die, however I fear that we are not looking at growth in the same way. To grow is not always to change or adapt. To grow is more often to become stronger, larger, to exert more influence on ones environment.

As I have said before, the expansionist needs of the Klingon Empire would probably drive thier outlook on such issues. A warrior race does not grow by nature without excessive breeding. One can not exert more influence by adopting the ways of your enemies. Calling a loss a victory does not make it so. The idea that Klingons would change thier opinions to coincide with the conquored after conquoring another people, is the very dangerous path of khesterex.

I also do not see the Klingons as more agreeable between the series. Yes there was a treaty, one which was broken several times on screen. The Klingons withdrew from the treaty at least twice, this is not the act of someone who has been influenced by the other side, as it were.
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« Reply #58 on: 08 06, 2006, 10:42: AM »

I know the books aren't regarded as canon, but has anyone read the new Star Trek: Vanguard series?  book one, Harbinger, has a Klingon female called Lurqal, who is posing as a Terran.  She is having an affair with a vulcan female named T'Prynn.
In the story, Lurqal muses that they will never let her enter Sto-Vo-Kor and that the dishonour of her next life is a small price to pay for such love in this life, and that "not only had she forsaken Klingon tradition for the touch of other women, but that of all the women she might have loved, she had lost her heart to a Vulcan"


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« Reply #59 on: 11 24, 2006, 04:24: AM »

No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. In addition, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.

Homophobia is a truly human trait and religion has contributed to the most negative and destructive attitudes towards sexual issues, especially homosexuality. (No offense intended to the religious)

One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong.

“Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species," explains Petter Boeckman, who is the academic advisor for the "Against Nature's Order?" exhibition.

From the middle of October until next summer the Norwegian Natural History Museum of the University of Oslo http://www.uio.no/ will host the first exhibition that focuses on homosexuality in the animal kingdom.

I have 5 dogs, 2 of which are homosexual females (and that is not because there are no males around).

Even the male lion is know to be bisexual.

I’ll leave it there for the moment but I’m coming back.

Cheers

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« Reply #60 on: 11 25, 2006, 05:25: AM »

And to think that this topic lay dormant for so long, only to be periodically revisited. This has been one of the best debates we have had around here.

Now, I may be splitting hairs on this, but since the only species that have been encountered by humans (as of yet) have been earthbound, the status of their heterosexuality or lack there of is not all that relevant. We can not even begin to know what will be encountered (Animal, Mineral or Vegetable) once we travel in space.

As for homosexuality being unnatural, since social debates among humans only discuss human traits, there is no definitive answer to this being right or wrong. There are plenty of things that are permissable in the animal kingdom that are not so among civilized humans. I would think this is a well known historical fact to the klingons, as they took the time to differentiate between animals and people linguistically (but that is a whole other debate).

The quote about homosexuality is common in a number of species says it all, or more accurately does not say it all. Were homosexuality the norm in all of nature, I suspect the quote would have said something like in every species or in all species. As it did not, then there must be, at a minimum, the possibility of a species where heterosexuality is the norm. And since the quote is a modern human quote, this possibility must exist within the limited sample of the earth we currently know. I would think that given this material, it would be impossible for such a possibility to not exist given the number of species that would have been discovered and documented by the era when Klingons were revealed to humanity.

Some animals eat their young, but people do not. This noes not make it natural for humans (or Klingons) to do so. But we really should let this debate refocus on Klingons and not on humans, lions or dogs. So here goes.

I am not familiar with the Vanguard series, what time period is it set in? I personally consider the books to be part of the extended canon, as much of fandom and indeed my own characters have been developed after reading various Trek books. The idea of a Klingon posing as a human suggests TOS, but I wonder what makes the love affair so dishonorable? Is it that it is with another woman, or that it is with a Vulcan, or a combination of both?

The character does seem to imply that the love of another woman is at least non-traditional, if not outright forbidden. That would seem to argue against such things being considered natural by Klingon society as a whole. Loosing one's heart to a Vulcan (unless they have undergone the operation to remove telepathic ability) is not only distasteful but might be seen as a security risk.

I have recently seen a fan film series that takes on this topic, in that two male characters are involved with each other, one a human and the other Klingon. From what I saw of the episode, it was a quick shock value kind of thing between two lesser characters. I do not know if this will develop into a major plot device or not. This is at least as canon as the books, unless they start getting off on really strange tangents.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #61 on: 11 27, 2006, 01:46: AM »

Permissible, natural and norm (or normal) are 3 different things. Just because it isn’t “the norm”, doesn’t mean it’s unnatural. Just because it’s “permissible” doesn’t mean it’s natural. Heterosexuality is the “norm” in MOST species, that doesn’t make homosexuality “unnatural”
So are you saying that civilization makes homosexuality “unnatural”? I agree!

Quote
The quote about homosexuality is common in a number of species says it all, or more accurately does not say it all. Were homosexuality the norm in all of nature, I suspect the quote would have said something like in every species or in all species.

Not at all, the research on this issue can only go so far….They cannot hope to study ALL species. So the claim can not be made in general terms.

Quote
The character does seem to imply that the love of another woman is at least non-traditional, if not outright forbidden. That would seem to argue against such things being considered natural by Klingon society as a whole. Loosing one's heart to a Vulcan (unless they have undergone the operation to remove telepathic ability) is not only distasteful but might be seen as a security risk.

 
This book was written by a human…with a human perspective and possibly a homophobic one.. Even the most talented of writers will pen “their personal, social views” in the form of fanfic……What makes this book canon and others not?? Is it the writer or the content…or neither? It is a serious question.

All we have to go on is based on human observations of ours and other species.…….
It is stated by some researchers that homosexuality is a natural birth-control mechanism to counteract over-population..(I personally don’t accept this premise though some do)
If one is to accept this premise, then Klingons would also face this same phenomenon, as their focus is on breeding and expanding their speicies. AFF?

Quote
I have recently seen a fan film series that takes on this topic, in that two male characters are involved with each other, one a human and the other Klingon. From what I saw of the episode, it was a quick shock value kind of thing between two lesser characters. I do not know if this will develop into a major plot device or not. This is at least as canon as the books, unless they start getting off on really strange tangents.

When we talk about the possibility of male human with male klingon, I would think that the “fundamental” differences between the two would make this union almost impossible……to a point, I suppose lol. Yet you see this as possible canon! Don’t wanna go there!!

Cheers

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« Reply #62 on: 11 27, 2006, 07:46: AM »

El ninjo, I did not get the impression when reading this book that the author was homophobic.  The scenes between the two characters in question were well written and did not try to condemn them.

The autor seems to be taking the same view of many of us here - that homosexuality does happen in most specoes as you suggest but that the Klingons are not a tolerant bunch and don't particularly approve.  And let's be honest about it - klingons are NOT known for their tolerance.

If we here on earth can be so intolerant, why do we expect Klingons to be any different?

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« Reply #63 on: 11 27, 2006, 09:59: PM »

The fact that it is impossible to study every species, is exactly my point. We can not assume that simply because something exists in some (or even many) species that it will exist in another (or all other) species. It does not matter if we are talking about sexuality, hair color or political beliefs. We can only base theories on Klingon by what we know of Klingons, not what we assume they might have in common with humans, or for that matter kangaroos.

As for what makes canon, I came across an interesting definition a few years ago that basically says there are three categories.

Canon - Whatever Paraborg comes out with (this tends to change a lot)
Extended Canon - The various projects like books, comics and most fan fiction that are more or less consistent with canon, but are not strictly authorized as such. (This sometimes includes former canon, like FASA)
Non-Canon - This is the stuff that directly contradicts well known canon and doesn't seem to care.

I tend to find that these definitions sum it up nicely, and that most books fall into the extended canon. With the advent of web based video's, these mostly fall into that category also. Even thought I do not think that Homosexuality would exist among Klingons, It would take more than one minor thing to move a book into non-canon. Unless the relationship is going to be a major plot device that will have many subplots depending on it, it is of minor significance.

I was once involved in an ongoing RPG/Story, before Enterprise, so we didn't have much knowledge of the Andorians other than TOS. Once character played an Andorian character and wrote long sections about life back home, with 4 different sexes and 4 way marriages, that deviated so far from known canon that I had no problem considering those facts non-canon. Once Enterprize came out, and we saw more of the Andorians, this became further away from known canon.

I also don't think it is fair to brand an author homophobic, simply because they wrote about a character that realizes her homosexual relationship would not be accepted on the Klingon homeworld.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #64 on: 11 29, 2006, 06:05: PM »

Once character played an Andorian character and wrote long sections about life back home, with 4 different sexes and 4 way marriages, that deviated so far from known canon that I had no problem considering those facts non-canon. .

Actually, if published novels are considered semi/extended canon then this is more canon than you realise.  The concept of Andorians having four sexes appears in several of the novels.  I can't remember now exactly which boos but I think it was the ones about DS9 that vcarry on the s tory where the TV show stopped.  (If I remember, I will post the titles later)

One of the Andorians in the book committed suicide and it threw the other three into complete turmoil.  It actually went into it quite deeply,portraying them as having a reproductive problem in that it takes four people to produce one child and not enough children were being born to sustain the population.

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« Reply #65 on: 11 29, 2006, 11:09: PM »

I did't say the writer was homophobic….but possibly homophobic. I wasn’t labeling anyone anything but simply pointing out that this could be the case.

In the episode "Rules of Acquisition", Pel is a Ferengi who is in love with Quark. Pel is really a female pretending to be a male, in order to have a career in the sexist Ferengi society. When Pel confesses to Dax that she is in love with Quark, Dax indicates she had guessed as much. She then asks Pel if Quark was aware of the infatuation, to which Pel responds "he doesn't even know that I'm a female," which suggests that love between males is inconceivable in Ferengi culture. However, Dax appears genuinely astonished to learn that Pel is female; evidently she had assumed Pel was male and therefore the "love" they had spoken of was homosexual, and Dax apparently regarded it as perfectly normal. Dax is perhaps the most worldly member of the crew, and her attitude suggests that homosexuality is generally much more accepted in the 24th century than it is today

The Dax and Kahn symbionts had been married, while the Dax symbiont was joined to a male host and the Kahn symbiont was joined with a different female host. However, by reuniting the two Trill would be violating a Trill taboo against re-establishing relationships of past hosts. Hence, the two women agree to part ways at the end of the episode and Jadzia Dax would return to dating men. However, none of the crewmembers express any disgust or loathing of the brief lesbian affair, and Capt. Benjamin Sisko's conversation with Jadzia makes it clear that the gender of Dr. Kahn was a non-issue.

In addition to the (almost universal) lesbianism in the mirror universe, a mild touch of male homosexuality was introduced when Garak offered sexual favours to Worf.

The last season of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1999) had an episode titled "Field of Fire" in which Dax, now in the body of a new female host, has to track down a Vulcan murderer on the space station. One of the victims was a Bolian, played by a male actor, who was described as having a co-husband in addition to a wife. This led some fans to suggest that this episode was asserting that same-sex marriages were eventually given legal recognition in the Star Trek future.

Andorians are also a warlike species. Andorians engage in group marriages of four as a rule.
Why do we “expect” Klingons to have traveled the same paths we humans have….. Why do we so readily accept that Klingons would be “intolerant” of such things or view these things in the same way we do?….Could it not be, that Klingons travel a different path (as indeed they have) and view homosexuality as no more abhorrent than eating live worms or uncooked meat.

Cheers

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« Reply #66 on: 11 30, 2006, 01:34: AM »

Quote
I did't say the writer was homophobic….but possibly homophobic. I wasn’t labeling anyone anything but simply pointing out that this could be the case.
...
Why do we “expect” Klingons to have traveled the same paths we humans have….. Why do we so readily accept that Klingons would be “intolerant” of such things or view these things in the same way we do?….Could it not be, that Klingons travel a different path (as indeed they have) and view homosexuality as no more abhorrent than eating live worms or uncooked meat.

     Could be.   But none of us are saying that Klingon homosexuality really is tolerated, because we have no direct evidence to support it, but you are right.  It could be.  Could also be that Klingon Homosexuals are publically rutually tortured to death.  Nothing to support that, but it is possible.   Could be that there are no Klingon homsexuals, since we don't have a full understandinging of Klingon genetics.  We believe given what we know of terran biology that it is not improbable that there would be, but Klingons are not hyoomins.  We don't know for sure either way, and we may never know for sure.   It is good that there is speculation on both sides.  Gives us something to argue about.  Cheesy Klingon Grin

Quote
Once character played an Andorian character and wrote long sections about life back home, with 4 different sexes and 4 way marriages, that deviated so far from known canon that I had no problem considering those facts non-canon. . .

    This is long held fanon (Flikster Leslie Fish wrote about it in the 70s).   And it is supported by a canon, a comment by Data in TNG: "Data's Day" that "Andorian marriages require four people unless...". (source memory-alpha.org).   I wonder if perhaps this came from a crack McCoy might have made about Andorian reproduction being very complex... (I may be falsey attributing here, as I can't find any source to back that up.)

This book was written by a human…with a human perspective and possibly a homophobic one.. Even the most talented of writers will pen “their personal, social views” in the form of fanfic……What makes this book canon and others not?? Is it the writer or the content…or neither? It is a serious question.

    Put Gene Roddenberry on that list of talented writers who deliberately write in their political views into their fiction.  In fact, the whole reason Gene Roddenberry created Star Trek, perhaps the first truly believable Science Fiction shows on TV, was to present his political views in a format that would slip by the censors as well as some in the audience who otherwise would not be receptive to his vision or messages.  I may not agree with his vision, but I respect his talent as a writer. 
 
    Without Gene's original vision and bias we wouldn't be here discussing it.  So the question becomes which authors we trust and which we don't.  Officially sanctioned, licensed and branded works have a bit better reputation because they are reviewed and edited before being published to avoid completely embarassing the publisher.  But a lot of crappy books have been published anyway. Cheesy Klingon Grin   So each of us that will have to make that decision for ourselves based on our experiences with previous Star Trek and Klingon works.

    It's not overly suprising in a universe where a bathroom is never seen, that a contraversial issue like this would not be covered.

Quote
KLYTHE:::::::::when Klingons are said not to be able to cry

Klythe I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, but Mr. Spock ONCE said Klingons lack tear ducts, although Klingon myth states that Kahless once filled the ocean with his tears.
When you say klingons are unable to cry, are you inferring that they don’t have any feelings/emotions?

    I'm saying, I'm leaving the possibility of adding a tongue-in-check icon open, because we have icons for other expressions of emotions we have not seen in Klingons, regardless of whether they are implied or contradicted by canon.   Personally, I tend to use }}:P  to indicate I'm not being entirely serious.  Tongue-in-cheek could be something like:  }}:P)  

    Ford asserts Klingons express emotions differently, some are not expressed when felt, but are internalized used later giving the Klingon more emotional energy.
As for what makes canon, I came across an interesting definition a few years ago that basically says there are three categories.

Canon - Whatever Paraborg comes out with (this tends to change a lot)
Extended Canon - The various projects like books, comics and most fan fiction that are more or less consistent with canon, but are not strictly authorized as such. (This sometimes includes former canon, like FASA)
Non-Canon - This is the stuff that directly contradicts well known canon and doesn't seem to care.

    And things can move from Canon to Non-Canon, like the entirety of the animated series except perhaps one episode.   Also there is what is "Official" which is things Paramount has authorized directly, but aren't canonical.  Since canon can and does contradict itself, there is very little that is pure white, it comes down to how much grey there is in any source.   It's all part of the fun. Cheesy Klingon Grin

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« Reply #67 on: 12 01, 2006, 12:27: AM »

And what would any discussion of alien cultures be without the various shades of greys?

As for debates, I think that even without as much speculation as we have put forth here, we would still find things to argue about. That's part of the fun of Klindom.

I had never come across the canon references to 4 sex Andorians. I did a search on the Internet that brought me to several sites that did not mention anything at all about sex, and thought the author was making this all up. I guess that they were not.

Dax, while worldly, probably has views at least formed while growing up trill. Being that Trill frequently change sexes, I can see her (or any trill) being much more accepting of homosexuality than many other races. I can also see the Ferengi being even less tolerant than most races, because of their already known treatment of women. Since they do not allow women to conduct business, there is a whole new connotation to being considered effeminate among Ferengi than there would be among humans. Telling a Ferengi male that he was not permitted or able to earn profit, is possibly the worst insult one could hurl at him.

I have never expected Klingons to have traveled the same path as humans, on the contrary we know of many ways those paths diverged from one another. But humans in general are allot more accepting of homosexuality than I think Klingons would be. But let us not make the same mistake twice, and assume that the Klingon path was the same as any other race, be it Andorian, Vulcan, Bolian or Trill. From what little we have been given of all these cultures, we can also see that each walks a very different path. I think that Apples and Oranges would, in the 24 Century, still be different from each other.

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« Reply #68 on: 12 04, 2006, 11:17: PM »

I haven't visited these boards in a long time, but just checked up on the last thread here (by qoSagh).
I could not, as of yet, find the original mention here of four Andorian sexes, but I can attest that in the Races of the Federation book (published in the first couple of years of the Next Gen series), the reference page for the Andorians states they have marriages made up of four partners. I cannot recall any reference to four types of sexuality there, but one can assume a straight male, female, and a bisexual male and female...It is funny that, seeing this was an officially sanctioned reference book, how much the back stories have drastically changed for numerous races, especially Klingons and Ferengi. Most amusing is the global map of the Homeworld, wherein the surface is shown as over 80 percent land with small lakes scattered across.  Speaking of which, can anyone please guide me to an up to date map of Kronos?



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« Reply #69 on: 12 05, 2006, 12:11: AM »

This site does mention the 4 sexes, though it is somewhat vaige.

http://experts.about.com/e/a/an/andorian.htm

I did find a reference to these 4 sexes on another site which I am not sure if its canon or not that state the following

Andorians have four sexes: zhen, shen, chan, and thaan. The reproductive functions and appearances of zhens and shens are roughly equivalent to those performed by females in two-sexed species, while chans and thaans are roughly equivalent to males in their biological function and appearance, though shens and chans are often perceived as being somewhat androgenous-looking to two-sexed species. The four-sexed paradigm, is depicted as being responsible for the Andorian species having great difficulty maintaining replacement level population growth and facing extinction.

This is the site.

http://galaxy.imndesigns.com/database/species/members/andorian.htm

qoSagh and Klythe....surprise surprise...I can't beleive it but I agree with both of you. But don't be surprise to see this thread come to life again in the future lol

Cheers


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« Reply #70 on: 10 14, 2007, 04:34: AM »

OK....
This is a bit late for me but oh well... i wanna voice my oppinion
Firstly, I think some people forget the simple fact that if there were Gay Klingons, they would be given a specific task in Klingon culture. Because they cannot reproduce doesnt mean they cannot bring honour to their line. I think also that Klingons would see this as a small small topic: a Gay man can still hold a weapon.
Secondly, I've seen the "That which does not grow, whithers and dies" line being played a fair bit. I feel that this seconds my above statement: He (or She) who cannot reproduce can still fight for the Empire. In that, there must also be heterosexual klingons who dont take up partners at all.
Lastly, I doubt that even if there were Gay Klingons, it would be much of a problem: >10% of a population that doesnt reproduce cannot be a big worry for an otherwise thriving Empire. If it were the other way around, or there were equal amounts of Hetero- and Homo-sexual Klingons (similar to the Spartans) the Empire would be intelligent enough to work out controlled breeding (also like the spartans). I also have a feeling that being "homophobic" might conflict with general Klingon Honour rules.

Hope this enlightens...
naQ the Complete
(i'll also put this in my other thread)
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« Reply #71 on: 10 15, 2007, 04:24: PM »

While looking at this most recent reply, I read some of the past replies and once again jump into the fray. While I do not think that breeding and reproduction is the only reason there are not gay Klingons, it is certainly the most compelling. Way back in FASA we read about the Andorians being considered khesterex by the Klingons, it was said that this was because they had given up their warrior culture. Added with the new information about four part marriages leading to mating difficulties, I would propose this: They had to stop fighting in order to reduce casualties, as they were unable to keep up with population demands.

Now to put this into a Klingon perspective, since the Klingons have not given up their warrior nature, they must be keeping up with population demands, since they are constantly trying to expand outward, they are very likely creating more than they are loosing. This once again puts reproduction in the forefront. Since Klingons as a whole are of this expansionist nature, it follows that likes & dislikes on a wider cultural level would follow this nature. Thus even if a small number of homosexuals would not adversely effect the population, they would be considered distasteful at the very least. That goes to the original basis of this thread, the tolerance or lack there of that Klingons have for such behavior.

I have always found that 10% argument to be nothing but silliness, in that there is no effective way to conduct such a census among humans, so it would follow that it was even less likely to be able to conduct one among Klingons. There is no way to know what the percentage would be, if any at all. However, what percentage of a population that does not reproduce would cause a problem for a warrior culture? I guess that depends on the casualty rates, if the war is going well there is little worry, but if the war is not going well, then could 1% per enough to worry over? Remember that since it takes a while for babies to become soldiers, this reproduction needs to be fairly consistent and constant, in order to replace those who die in battle.

I also do not think that there are heterosexual Klingons that do not marry or reproduce. We have see Klingons who never mention wives or children, but we have never seen one who proudly declares that he has none. This is yet another area where there is a complete lack of canon material. What we have seen is an extreme sense of family among Klingons. The parent/child or even sibling/sibling bond is of great cultural significance to the Klingon race, thus I would think that desire if not social custom, and natural compulsion would lead to all Klingons continuing this way of life.

Little has been said about honor or service, in this debate, but I would also put forth the idea that a Klingon who did not subscribe to the cultural norms would likely not be trusted all that much. So while anyone could pick up a gun, would one who defies what the Klingons see as nature be trusted enough to even get a gun? As for honor, honor is not a tangible thing like gold that one can earn for services, it is more of a concept that can not be touched. So the idea that one that so many may consider unnatural could still earn honor for his line is questionable at best. However, that ones ability to earn honor for the empire ( and by extension the entire Klingon race) as a whole is severely impaired.


The idea of controlled breading and natural birth control are the exact opposite to the concept of a warrior race needed rapid replacements for the casualties of war, and thus if you accept breeding as a social duty, you must not accept controls that are artificially placed on that same breeding.
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« Reply #72 on: 10 16, 2007, 05:40: AM »

[ Deleted excessive quote for readability Original quoted text here.  - Klythe]

This is all true, but it is impossible to think that, if faced with homosexuality, that the Klingons would find a way use it to their advantage? It is what many Terran warrior civilizations have done in the past, and being able to incorporate differences into the forward-motion of a society seems rather...Klingon (to me, at least).

I think also that if a Homosexual Klingon would take up arms and fight or live with honour, that the fact they are homosexual could be socially overridden. I'm not sure on that point exactly, but I do know that there are gay Klingons on Terra, and that the Klingon social structure does serve them (this is of course from experience of local groups)
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« Reply #73 on: 10 16, 2007, 06:53: AM »

Bringing the novels into it again, go read the series of Vanguard books - they feature a female Klingon named Lurqal who is homosexual.....

Personally I still think that if there are Klingon gays, then they would not be well tolerated as a group.  Last year at the SF Ball, someone made the mistake of saying they planned to come as a gay Klingon next time.  It caused uproar! Klinogns are not known for their tolerance.  While I have no doubt tthat gay Klingons exist I do not see them doing the whole gay pride thing....  As for doing a gay Klingon costume, why would a Klingon who happens to be gay, be
distinguishable from any other Klingon in terms of dess and appreance?

Klingons are a warrior culture and very traditional in a lot of ways.  And to compare with modern armies - are gays allowed to serve in the US Army?

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« Reply #74 on: 10 16, 2007, 11:21: AM »

Quote
qoSagh:  I also do not think that there are heterosexual Klingons that do not marry or reproduce.

    Oh, I know there are Klingons that neither marry or reproduce, as this is both a duty and an honor.   Klingons do not chose their mates the same way Terrans do, and I believe would tend towards selecting a mate only after they have proved themselves worthy.  And not all Klingons can.

   Now...  Here is a question that cuts both ways...   A Klingon of either(any?) sex, who is know to routinely dismiss the advances of worthy mates..   At what point would that be seen as being honorably selective and at what point would it become aberrant and suspicious?   We seem to agree that if there were Klingon homosexuals, they would tend to avoid appearing openly homosexual in public due to presumed intolerance.    So an interested potential mate of the opposite sex would have no way of knowing if the one was disinterested in the particular person, generally disinterested in mating(at the time or ever), or is reserving their interest for those of their own gender.

Quote
naQ: Firstly, I think some people forget the simple fact that if there were Gay Klingons, they would be given a specific task in Klingon culture. Because they cannot reproduce doesn't mean they cannot bring honour to their line. I think also that Klingons would see this as a small small topic: a Gay man can still hold a weapon.

    Presuming there is less than full acceptance, gay klingons would avoid publically identifying, so assigning a specific task to homosexual Klingons would be harder to arrange.   If there was active violent intolerance, the task assigned to gay Klingons would likely be "Floral maturation specialist"  tasked with pushing up the daisies from below...

    Fighting is so much more that merely "holding a weapon".   A wall display can hold a weapon, but a only warrior can live to fight.  I don't see anything innate about homosexuality per se that would prevent them from being a warrior though...  I just don't see Klingons bothering with making a special category of warriors who are excluded from social expectations because of their sexual preference.

Quote
If it were the other way around, or there were equal amounts of Hetero- and Homosexual Klingons (similar to the Spartans) the Empire would be intelligent enough to work out controlled breeding (also like the spartans). I also have a feeling that being "homophobic" might conflict with general Klingon Honour rules.

    Spartan homosexuality is from what I have read a bit controversial historically speaking...  Though one thing was clear to me from my research.  The Spartans died out because their requirements for full citizenship (as a warrior) were based on heredity, money and strength.  From what I've read (mostly Wikipedia) to be a citizen, your father had to be a citizen, he had to have enough money to put you through the military training academy, and you had to pass.  If you fail, none of your children would be ineligible, and none of their children so on.   Yes, newer technologies did make the Hoplite obsolete, but the biggest problem was that they every year there were fewer and fewer new warrior/citizens.

Quote
It is what many Terran warrior civilizations have done in the past, and being able to incorporate differences into the forward-motion of a society seems rather...Klingon (to me, at least).

    "Forward-motion of a society' is very much a cultural specific judgment.  Not all cultures move "forward" in the same direction.  All cultures are different and judging them based on your own culture may be useful for you, but is very dangerous when you try to force it on them.   I'm not saying there isn't objective measures of how "forward" or "backward" a society may be, but more care should be used when making those kinds of judgments especially for a very alien culture.

Quote
Kehlan:  Klingons are a warrior culture and very traditional in a lot of ways.  And to compare with modern armies - are gays allowed to serve in the US Army? 

     They weren't until the the closing years of the 20th Century.  If memory serves it was the terran year 1993 when the policy shifted from, "No.  We will catch you and toss you out" to "We won't ask. Don't tell us, because if you do, we'll have to throw you out...".   So they are technically allowed, but officially not allowed.   So as far as 'tolerance' goes, not so much.   And yes, most everyone in America realizes this is stupid, but it's probably the best compromise right now as it is equally unsatisfactory to both sides of the issue.   What is the policy in the UK?
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