Klingon homosexuality

[AS´ti]

I'm also saying that speculation is all we have due to the RP thing.

I'd like to start with this remark. I absolutely agree, since any claim of 'knowledge' outside of quoting canon or taking roleplay a bit too seriously would be a bit too much. I do think (and I believe someone earlier on in this thread made a similar comment) that we have to be careful with projecting political correctness into forming details of an alien culture. Star Trek has more often than not a sort of ideologic view of mankind and in a way, life in general (not just us humans get along, we also have a whole federation of other races to get along with). When I think of Klingons, I think of certain human trades, but more extreme and passionate. To give some background information, I live in Amsterdam which advertises itself as the gay capital of the world (although I'm sure San Francisco will claim the same) and even though I would judge myself bisexual at the most (I kissed a girl once) I'm very tolerant. Because of that, when thinking about passionate fierce Klingons, I would like to envision how a long hot sweaty Klingon combat training session between two males will result in equally passionate and fierce sex. However, just because I'm tolerant and have a naughty streak, doesn't mean that 'a Klingon' would actually be like that (stepping outside canonrules for the moment). Perhaps they would be very homophobic, exiling openly gay members, which would make them a lot less likeable to me, yet at the same time more interesting because I would understand them less and therefor making them more intruiging.

Hm.. not sure if it makes sense what I'm trying to say.

A lot of your response is about homosexuality and it's occurence, display etc. I find it a very interesting topic (btw I work with children so I can relate to your findings) but perhaps it's somewhat offtopic to go into detail about that. Feel free to send me a private message if you feel like discussing it though, so we don't stray offtopic here. To shortly address the dificulties of 'counting gays', yes, you are totally right. Same goes for other illusive groups like homeless (who aren't registered and who move around alot) and such. Plus, there would be the definition issue, when is someone indeed absolute homosexual? When acting it but not being it? When being it but surpressing it (knowingly or not)?

Your remark about polite opinions makes me feel like you would like an apology. I do realize I can be as blunt as strongheaded, especially when talking about things that I'm passionate about (guess why I like Klingons? ). If I however upset you in any way, I do apologize for that. It's not roleplaying persé what I do, but being a newcomer here I figured that I could drop my usual selfcensorship a bit. I appreciate the time you take to reply.

*raises a mug of bloodwine*

Let us drink sister!

[Kehlan]

Crikey, no, I didnt mean I want an apology from you... what I meant by politeness is that we ( as in the community here) can discuss it, but its a controversial subject and we need to avoid projecting human prejudices and whether or not we think 'gayness' is right or wrong.  not sure if I'm expressing myself the way I want to but hope you can see what I'm getting at.

As for the rest of it, I admit to not being an expert on the subject.  Its an interesting discussion, looking at the various scenarios of how things work on this world and trying to guess how it might be in Klingon, or another alien culture.  I don't think Paramount will ever give us a canon answer, even if there is another Star trek film or series but its certainly interesting to speculate.

I tend to think, as Ive said before, that Klingons would be very intolerant.  that said, I could see it happening... picture a ship out on long range patrol, away for years at a time, and mostly men on board, living in very close quarters and sexual tensions are going to rise.  Ive been told that in World War 1, there was alot of homosexuality in the trenches, maybe caused by the stresses of war, close confines with other men and sharing some very intense experiences with them, leading to shared sexual experiences... the men then going home after the war to their wives and children.  I could imagine it being similar for warriors in the Klingon empire.  What I can't personally imagine is a couple of Klingon women openly snogging in a nightclub/bar or two men walking down the streets of First City hand in hand

[El Payaso Malo]

Perhaps they would be very homophobic, exiling openly gay members, which would make them a lot less likeable to me, yet at the same time more interesting because I would understand them less and therefor making them more intruiging.

I understand. On one hand, if Klingons were bigoted toward homosexuals, you would like them less for being less inclusive, but you would find them more exotic due to their ideals being so alien in differing from your own. Is that right?

Plus, there would be the definition issue, when is someone indeed absolute homosexual? When acting it but not being it? When being it but surpressing it (knowingly or not)?

Homosexuality is the sexual or romantic preference for people of one's own sex. One's actions have nothing to do with it, it is one's desires. 60-70% of male performers in homosexual erotica claim to be heterosexual, for example, stating the job is just a paycheck. That is the definition as I use it and have always understood it.

[qoSagh]

It is tempting to say there is not enough data to prove this one way or another, but all the data we do have shows no evidence of gay Klingons. We have seen Klingons in relationships, we have heard descriptions of and seen the aftermath of Klingon sexual acts, yet this has always been portrayed as heterosexual. The preponderance of evidence is that Klingons are heterosexual.

Our classification of animal life on earth is based entirely on what we have observed. If and when we meet any aliens, they may well fall into a category that will have to be created just for them, like say hairy lizards or birds that breath under water via gills. Thus even if we could find an example of every animal species on earth having at least one homosexual member, that does not in and of itself prove that gay Klingons would exist.

...let's say Dad is a warrior with four kids. He wouldn't be home often and his offspring would be more vulnerable to attack than they would be with an extra male around to care for them. What if warrior-dad had a gay brother? If that brother would also be a warrior, he still wouldn't have children of his own to go home to, giving him extra time for his nephews and nieces during his R&R's.. or if he would have another profession he would still be likely to stay close to his youngest family members, giving them more chance of survival.

As for the uncle helping to raise the kids, this is interesting, but since genes cannot be passed on by proxy or osmosis. So no matter how cool an uncle he is, he will have no genetic effect on the nieces and nephews. At best all you can have in this situation is the idea that from being around that gay uncle, there might be an effect on the acceptance that would be held by that family. There is no reliable way to tell if acceptance would be increased or decreased in this situation.

Many warrior cultures such as Sparta had great emphasis on procreation and homosexuality. Homosexuality was the backbone of the Spartan education system. Many parts of Klingon culture were based on samurai. Shudō (衆道) was the Japanese practice of arranging relationships between older and younger samurai for the purpose of growth, sharing wisdom and personal development. This practice was at one time seen as essential to a warrior's experience.

Well the obvious thing here is that Sparta not being in Japan would have little if anything to do with Klingon characterizations being based on Samurai. That being said nothing about the System for for the purpose of growth, sharing wisdom and personal development that you described mentions anything about sexual encounters. One of the things that separate people (including Klingons for the moment) from animals is that not every encounter leads to sexual activity. The person vs. animal distinction is important to Klingons as they thought to differentiate the two in language.

There is a world of difference between a guy getting it on with another guy but ending up in a heterosexual relationship and impregnating his wife.. and two guys living monogamously together as a couple.

There is no confusion here. The main question about the existence of Klingon homosexuality can not make such a distinction and still produce a realistic answer.

I also wonder if attitudes towards homosexuality can affect the numbers of homosexuals... what I mean is, that a society that is very repressive will tend to discourage young people from experimenting with their sexuality -ok, some will do it anyway, but allot will conform because that’s what is expected of them. In a society where it is dangerous to be homosexual, its going to be very much a hidden, furtive thing and not something a person will admit to, both to other people and maybe even to themselves. A more open, permissive society however, will not condemn people for being what they are and in this type of society, people with differences from what is considered the norm are more likely to flourish. The point of that being, that its possible that the attitudes of Klingon society may affect the question of how much homosexuality exists in the Klingon empire.

That is a very good theory! I feel that even if it is illegal, it will be just as common, but underground. But AS'ti is suggesting that it may not occur among them at all. In that case, they wouldn't even need laws regulating it, and they probably wouldn't be familiar with the concept or have a word for it.

The sociological factors play into this greatly. While among the human population lack of acceptance has forced this population underground, Klingons would be allot more ruthless and less tolerable about any underground population or movement. If any group or movement is allowed to gather secretly there is too much potential for it to become a dissident movement.

You are confusing several things here. First, people are homosexual or not. You can't catch being gay from seeing it in the streets or on tv. Hence my whole point about it being a genetic thing and thus possibly not occurring in another race.

Well actually there is no definitive scientific proof of this and several cultural examples that homosexuality may in fact be a learned behavior and one that is not always a permanent state. However it is interesting that you say you can't catch being gay, yet your first example of the gay uncle, you seem to think that he can pass on his genes via babysitting. This is plainly contradictory.

Actually, that’s not proven. No gay gene has been identified, not yet anyway…Its certainly going to affect the numbers of countable gays.  It's a bit hard to find a true number if the person is going to end up in prison for admitting to it.

Oddly enough there is no great desire on either side of the human debate to look for such a gene. I have thought that the reason for this is that the risk would be too great the nature over nurture side of the argument. If the Gene is found to not exist then the nature side goes away. If the gene is found to exist, then anyone who does not possess it but exhibits the behavior in question will simply bolster the nurture argument.

As for counting a specific sub group in the population, without such a gene to look for one is entirely dependent on verbal responses. Now in general Klingons do not lie, however we know that there are occasionally dishonorable Klingons. The question is would they lie about a dishonor? I read about a recent study in England that shows the gay population to be 1% not the 10% that is usually talked about. The response from the gay community is that respondents were afraid to tell the truth. Now will a Klingon be afraid to answer such a question, well that would go back to being a sociological question.

[AS´ti]

Well actually there is no definitive scientific proof of this and several cultural examples that homosexuality may in fact be a learned behavior and one that is not always a permanent state. However it is interesting that you say you can't catch being gay, yet your first example of the gay uncle, you seem to think that he can pass on his genes via babysitting. This is plainly contradictory.

Yes it you misunderstand, which you are doing it is. I'm happy to clarify it for you though. Take a more general example, that of red hair. Red hair is a feature that one can carry with them without actually having red hair. It can skip a generation or once kids can have it without the parents having it themselves. If a red haired uncle helps to increase the survival of his nephews and nieces, he will help the survival of his families genes. His brother will be very close to his genomic material since they're from the same parents, thus increasing the chance that his nephews and nieces will carry on those genes. Now this is just one of the theories, there are a few why homosexuality would survive evolution. This is another one:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617204459.htm

I quote:

The results of this model show the interaction of male homosexuality with increased female fecundity within human populations, in a complex dynamic, resulting in the maintenance of male homosexuality at stable and relatively low frequencies, and highlighting the effects of heredity through the maternal line.

It's another form of the passing genes on by proxy model.

I understand. On one hand, if Klingons were bigoted toward homosexuals, you would like them less for being less inclusive, but you would find them more exotic due to their ideals being so alien in differing from your own. Is that right?

Yup, that's very well put.

[Kehlan]

yet your first example of the gay uncle, you seem to think that he can pass on his genes via babysitting. This is plainly contradictory.

Two brothers would have very similar, if not quite identical genes. Both of them have the genes of the same two people, their common mother and father. I think what Asti is getting at is that the gay uncle is passing on his genes by helping to ensure the survival of his nieces and nephews. They may not be identical to his genes but they'd be pretty close.

whether such behaviours is acepted or tolerated is a different issue.

[Edited to repair broken BBCode.  No other changes(you may remove this note) -Klythe ]

[Black Hornet]

Let's not forget the Viking culture, ( Samurai already covered), which was pro hetero in essence.

Quote;
but its a controversial subject and we need to avoid projecting human prejudices and whether or not we think 'gayness' is right or wrong.

Does this extend to Polygamy? or other forms of alternative relationships, incest, intergenerational intimacy etc? Or are we projecting our predjudices onto them & discriminating.  






The Old Norse word used in the law code and literature for an insult was níð , which may be defined as “libel, insult, scorn, lawlessness, cowardice, sexual perversion, homosexuality” (Markey 75).


Calling a man by any term which suggested he played the ‘passive’ or ‘feminine’ part in homosexual sex was considered an insult so severe that the person who had been insulted had the right to avenge it in combat. Just the insult itself might be enough to get a man outlawed.

http://historicromance.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/viking-attitudes-towards-homosexuality/

[Kehlan]

Does this extend to Polygamy? or other forms of alternative relationships, incest, intergenerational intimacy etc? Or are we projecting our predjudices onto them & discriminating.  

Well yes... it has to, regardless of subject matter... whether incest, racism, gay rights, or whther you like the colour pink, if we are going to discuss the thoughts and feelings of an alien race, we cannot project our own desires prejudices and opinions on to them.  It would be very presumptious of us to assume that 'real' klingons (as opposed to humans in costume) would have the same moral values as humans.  They are by definitiion, alien.  don't get me wrong, we may well have things in common with them, but we cannot assume.

there have been posts along the lines of "I think its wrong and discrimatory to not accept gays, therefore Klingons would accept gays without problems." and implying that anyone who thinks Klingons would be anti  gay, must be anti gay themselves.

Humans and Klingons are two completely different cultures and we cannot seriously expect to understand or agree with everything they would beleive.

Its actually possible that amongst themselves there could be disapgreement on subject like these. Just as there is disagreement among humans.  How do we know that Klingons from the northern continent hold the same beleifs as those from the south... do people from the Homeworld have different attitudes to those from the colonies?  We've definitely seen differences in attitude towards sexuality between land bound Klingons and those in the Defence Force (Decandido's klingon novels portray a defence force where sex is a commodity... Wol trades a sexual encounter for a barrel of bloodwine.  In comparison, her family threw her out and discommended her for sleeping with the wrong man)

[Black Hornet]

Klingons then would be smarter & more culturally advanced than the Greeks & others mentioned below who had open Pederasty, ( sex with boys starting age 12-13). I dunno about anyone else's definition, but in my book, those are children.


Muslim Pederasty, pederastic relationships, poetry, art and spirituality were found throughout cultures from Moorish Spain to Northern present-day Pakistan

Muslim Pederasty - Metapedi

the Celts and various Germanic Peoples such the Heruli and the Taifali . According to Plutarch , the ancient Persians , too, had long practiced it (though according to Herodotus they learned of pederasty from the GreeksHerodotus, ''Histories,'' I.135).


More recently, pederasty was widespread in and northern Italy during the Renaissance Michael Rocke, ''Forbidden Friendships: Homosexuality and male Culture in Renaissance Florence,'' Oxford, 1996Guido Ruggiero, '


it was practiced in India until the British colonization, amongst the Aztecs and Maya prior to the Spanish Conquest Of Mexico and in China and Central Asia until the early 20th Century . In the The Islamic World spiritual pederasty was incorporated into many mystic Sufi teachings. The tradition of pederasty persists to the present day in certain areas of Afghanistan , the Middle East , North Africa , and Melanesia .

http://www.informationdelight.info/encyclopedia/entry/pederasty

[Kehlan]

Youre making assumptions... Yes, a modern human would still be a child at age 12-13.  A coupleof thusand years ago, many young girls and boys were married by the age of 12-14.  A modern alien might not be a child at that age.  It depends on the species and lifespan.  A Vulcan might not be considered adult until the age of about 40, maybe, an Ocampa would be dead of old age long before they turned 12.  AS far as I can remember, the Klingon age of Ascension is age 15, although some novels imply klingons are adult at a much younger age than than that nd that possibility is certainly borne out by Alexander's growth rate.

(Before you have a go at me, I am not condoning Paedophilia, I am just pointing out that adulthood does not necesarily happen at age 18.) 

[Black Hornet]

No interest in a having at go at you, but would clarify that Paedophilia is a different term than Pederasty. Yes Klingons might well have a different age of passage. in Mexico it's 15 that a ceremony/party is held for a female celebrating her as a woman.

& yes in "Some" past earth societies young girls were maried off at young ages, but not the normalcy as Pederasty is for all gay earth cultures of the past.


And present...


Commissions found that severe physical and sexual abuse mostly occurred at schools for boys

Irish Horror: Priests Mostly Abused Boys - World - Javno


...Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that '80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children,'" the report continues, underscoring the fact that the ordination of priests with homosexual tendencies may be the real problem. ...

[qoSagh]

Not only might Klingons have a different age of consent, they might have a different age of physiological maturity. We saw Alexander age quite rapidly in TNG, and we have never really had the chance to see any more Klingon children for prolonged periods of observation. Although getting away from the original topic, in order for pedophilia to exist there must first be a lack of physical maturity in the victim. There is not enough data to even guess at this among Klingons. However as it is a subset of rape, I will say that it does not exist among Klingons for a number of reasons. First I do not see rape as existing. Sex between Klingon adults is often painful and resulting in injuries, but to both parties. Second, to a Klingon there is no honor in attacking the weak and helpless, although how helpless a Klingon child really is is questionable. What self respecting Klingon would want a mate that could not fight back? Then we get into the overall image of homosexuality (although not all pedophilia is of this variety, a significant number is) so I think it is unlikely that such a condition would ever develop among Klingons.

Regardless of the country involved, scandals within human churches are irrelevant to this discussion. Such scandals are also not limited to the Roman Catholic Church by any means. Since none of the predators or victims were Klingon, such thoughts do not really belong here.

[Black Hornet]

As Klingon philosophy pursues strength in both mind, spirit & body, I tend to doubt they would have much interest in homosexuality, particulary of the male variety.

http://www.hps-online.com/tsy1.htm
 
 
 
 
Taoist physicians regarded homosexuality among men, on the other hand as a dangerous practice- for several reasons. First of all, Yang is by nature an active, aggressive force, and, when two aggressive forces meet, a fundamental conflict of energies and intentions result. Male homosexuality requires that one partner yield to the other by adopting the female role, both physically and psychologically, and when this practice becomes a habit it completely undermines the fundamental role of Yang in the order of nature. Looking at this situation of Yang conflict at a microscopic scientific level, when sperm from two different men are mixed together and observed under magnification, they may clearly be observed fighting one another in a desperate struggle for supremacy.
 
Psychology aside, the greatest threat posed to men by homosexual practices are physiological.
Anal penetration, the mutual exchange of Yang sexual fluids, and frequent uncontrolled ejaculations are the culprits. Ancient Taoist physicians noted a pathological condition called 'Dragon Yang Syndrome' which occurred exclusively among promiscuous male homosexuals. 'Dragon Yang' (lung-yang) is a common Chinese euphemism for male homosexuality, equivalent to the English word 'gay'. Symptoms of this ailment included weakness and fatigue, skin ulcers and boils, low immunity, and impotence.













Male homosexuality is called lung-yang syndrome(Dragon Yang syndrome) and is a right kidney yang deficiency. I know people who have cured homosexuality through herbal healing.

Acupuncture alone is not always enough to cure imbalance, and has always been used in conjunction with qigung and herbal and nutritional therapy.

Regardless of certain elements of yin being within yang and vice versa, yang(positive) forces ALWAYS repell... thus causing major disruptions in chi, as well as the excessive loss of jing which nearly ALL homosexuals experience. It's just like masturbating.

Shen(Spirit) is directly effected by the balance(or lack there of) of Chi and Jing.

The 8,000 years of EMPIRICAL evidence is against all ideas that homosexuality(particularly in males) is healthy and balanced.

The Journal of Chinese Medicine

[qoSagh]

That was an interesting article. Now I have never considered Klingons to be particularly Taoist, however the idea of an inner nature is something spoken about among Klingons. As for the difference between male and female Klingons, well we have seen allot of male domination culturally, but also allot of female responsibility in society. From the little bits we have seen of Klingon sex, neither one is submissive in terms of attitude, although one imagines a certain submission in the physical acts. This is where I am not sure the Taoist doctors would deal well with Klingons. According to their theory the principal reasoning against homosexuality is one of Yang vs. Yang. We have seen much to let us think that most Klingon sex starts out this way as a kind of conflict played out during foreplay. It is only because we know Klingons and humans to be sexually compatible that we have any real clues as to what goes on after that combative dance. So I agree with the basic theory in the article, but I do not think there are Chinese words that adequately depict the way Klingons see their inner spirits. I do however see how the article can be applied to this debate, as it shows an ancient spiritual art, much like what we have heard of in Klingon circles.