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Author Topic: Klingon Gods  (Read 67638 times)
qoSagh
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« on: 03 28, 2004, 04:50: AM »

This seems like as good a time to bring this up. Are there Klingon Gods? and if so are they still an active part of Klingon life? Were they killed, as woof said? Dr. Tagore's research said that Klingons were too arogant to believe in gods, however we have seen time and time again that there are at least god like figures in Klingon society. This was before Kahless and his sermon on the Paramount.

In the qaptaQ we have long recognized that the Klingons do have or at least had gods during their cultural history. It is inconceivable however in a trek universe full of Travelers and Q and Apollo and Sybok, et al that a race could "kill" thier gods yet not posess other supenatural powers that would elevate them from mere mortals. As we wrote the qaptaQ religious history, one concept became clear. The gods were not dead but no longer played an active role in Klingon life.

If this is the case where are the gods now? Why do they not show up in Klingon day to day life? and why have Klingons as a whole been so willing to give up ancestral religions? Have all Klingons done this or are there still groups (large or small) of Klingons out there still worshiping various gods? How does what has been established in fandom mesh or not with Paramount and vice versa?

Lets see what kind of fun we can stir up with this one......
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« Reply #1 on: 03 30, 2004, 12:41: AM »

"Klingon gods are dead, ancient warriors killed them a millenium ago, they were more trouble than they were worth."

I view this phrase not literally but figuratively.  It has always been my experience that religion complicates matters, the more elaborate the ritual, the less likely anything real is to be gained by it.  

The concept of worship is contradictory...as if the truly great and mighty need to be reminded of their greatness and might.  Priests and clerics with limited vision prancing about in gaudy robes proclaiming a specie's helplessness, constantly reminding the very gods that they are gods indeed.

For me, my heart is the most knowledgeable cleric I can find.

Yet I believe that the Klingon gods do exist, in some fashion, and a scattered few still believe and keep such tenants of faith alive.  The story of qortar slaying the gods and thus being condemned to ferry the souls of the dishonored on the Barge of the Dead to ghe'tor is a perfect example of such contradictory beliefs.

Klingons claim their gods are dead...then who had the power to condemn qortar to eternal bargemaster?  The slaying was important, after all the wedding rites retell the tale.  Yet who was the mate of qortar whose heart joined with his to turn the heavens into ashes?

Sto'vo'qor - not really heaven yet it is where no one lacks sustenance or bends his knee to anyone else.  Where in every hall the clash of swords rings from the rafters and where men hold honor above all else.  

The opposite of which is ghe'tor - where dishonored souls go to be guarded by the veqlargh for eternity - yet Klingons do not have a hell and this evolutionary-challenged Klingon is not the devil (even though TNG referenced them in the same context).
« Last Edit: 03 30, 2004, 12:45: AM by weslipuqlod » Logged
voraq
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« Reply #2 on: 03 30, 2004, 01:41: PM »

I tend to agree with weslipuqlod.  Remember though, it was not Worf who said in TNG that veqlargh was the "devil." It was that alien thing, Ardra I think, that thought veqlargh was the devil.  

weslipuqlod's thoughts would seem to mesh together the statement Worf made in DS9 about the gods being killed because they were 'more trouble than they were worth' and General Korrd's recognition that Sybok found the mythical kip e tu (I am not sure how to spell it in tlhIngan Hol and do not have TKD available currently).  If the gods were actually killed then, arguably paradise would not exist.  ex.. if Adam and Eve did not exist would Eden exist?
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qoSagh
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« Reply #3 on: 03 30, 2004, 10:10: PM »

Back in TNG when Wesly "came out" as a traveler, there was the scene where the local idol looked Klingon, there was som e talk about Klingon Gods and Worf said that Klingons didn't have gods, we killed them. Now I know that to consider Worf to be a reliable source on anything Klingon would be a fools mission, but since there is noone as pios as a convert, Worf might just have read up on the subject more than the average Klingon. I don't remember the DS9 quote about the gods being more trouble than they are worth, but I didn't see every episode.

From all these semi-conflicting stories, I have always assumed that Klingons were poly-religious, just like humans. There are many religions practiced throughout the Empire, many of them with common roots. But I still find it hard to believe that the Klingon Gods are dead, at least in the sense that we think of dead. I agree that who would have the power to condem someone who just killed the gods? If not the gods themselves, then who? If it was the gods, then did they condem him postmortem?

The back story that was written for the qaptaQ way back in the Early 1990's was that the Order's founder discovered a way to travel to the place where the gods dwelled, and do battle with them. He then vanquished them (not killed) and barred them from interfereing with the Klingons for eternity. Little did we know that the dead gods story line was about to become cannon. From that point on we have always maintained that such stories are either mistranslations where humans have used the word killed in place of vanquished, or misunderstandings made by ignorant non-scholars among all races. Just goes to show that arogance is an artform among Klingons.

Perhaps this is an interesting theory on the barge driver story. He was not condemed but saved. After a battle with the gods even a vistorious Klingon would be badly wounded. Perhaps there was a stalemate of sorts, where the Klingon chose a life on the barge in return for an eternity of non-interferance for his people. He can never die, but the rqace would live to eventually expand out into the empire we know today. Of course one of the flaws of such a deal is that he can never come back and tell everyone what really happened so his heroic act may never be known except to the dishonored he shuttles across the river of blood.

 
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« Reply #4 on: 04 14, 2004, 12:32: AM »

Then of course is Fate, though there maybe some argument as to whether she is a god or not...

I read somewhere that gods die so to speak when people stop worshipping them.  My own theory on that is that the gods are not lterally dead, but metaphorically...In a sense they are dead in the Klingon heart.  I mean, can you truly imagine a Klingon on bended knee beseeching the gods to do something?  Most I think would go out and do it themselves.  Maybe Klingons are just to proud to worship gods.



 
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« Reply #5 on: 04 16, 2004, 12:28: PM »

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He then vanquished them (not killed) and barred them from interfereing with the Klingons for eternity.

So to the Klingons the gods were as good as dead, I think that makes more sense then literally killing the gods.

Quote
Maybe Klingons are just to proud to worship gods.

This is believable also, however, I would use the word sensible rather then proud.  

For a culture who prizes honor above all else to worship gods just because they are gods would be like telling them to (blindly) follow a Chancellor just because he is a chancellor.  This is not like the Klingons to do.  They need a reason to be loyal to someone  -example: If the Captain is being dishonorable/cowardly it is the second in command's duty to kill him and take command.--  They probably saw no reason to worship the gods because they gave the Klingons no reason to.  After Kahless left for Sto'vo'kor they found in him the true quality of a god.
« Last Edit: 04 16, 2004, 12:29: PM by voraq » Logged
qoSagh
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« Reply #6 on: 04 17, 2004, 02:15: AM »

The qaptaQ belief system / mythology was similar to the opening monolog to the Hercules TV show. The Ancient Uncarring Ones (what we call the gods) were petty and cruel, and used Klingons as thier playthings. The qaptaQ founder then rose up against them and vanquished them. Now that is the short version of course but it is the basic premise.

This was done for several reasons, one of which is that Paramount can not be trusted not to spring new gods on you at a moments notice. Another was soem of what we were rebeling against in fandom involved taking various human gods and vaguely changing the names to Klingonize them thinly masking occult/religious (depending on POV) activity under the cloak of fandom.

From Pawns & Symbols we know that Klingons are no stranger to famon. This is consistant with the idea of a rapidly expanding culture. Now imagine if you are a normal everyday citizen of the empire, you have worked hard to put food on the table and now you have to give a portion of your food/money/property to whatever temple is in your village. This would be culturally counterproductive and would risk the empire ceasing to grow. We know that growth is a central cultural goal as evidenced by nal komerex khesterex.

This is why the gods were vanquished, because worship of anything other than manifest destiny violates the principle of nal komerex khesterex. It was not as Dr. Tagore said because Klingons were too arrogant to conceive of anything higher than themselves. It was becasue part of claiming Klingon destiny is to claim the highest place on the foodchain, as it were.

 
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« Reply #7 on: 04 19, 2004, 10:15: PM »

The idea that the gods are dead, we killed them because there were more trouble they are worth is more of a fantasy for the liberal writers than a realistic cultural evolution for a warrior society.  As we are all part of modern cultures, and we are or tend to hang around highly-educated science geeks, we forget that before religions became what they are today, there is a reason that every terran culture has some kind of myths involving powerful beings such as gods or spirits.    Primitive tribal religions serve a very useful role in thier societies--they explain that which is inexplainable.   A pre-scientific culture with no gods is a khesterex, a non-growing, dying culture.  

    If we accepted this at face value, then before the HerQ invasion, this need we are meant to believe goes completely unfilled.   From the time of Kahless to the HerQ invasion, there are no Klingons who tries to understand something new?  How can you go about addressing these kinds of issues without a framework in which to discuss why the crops grew last year but not this year, why it rains when it does, why some people die sooner than others...  These questions can never be answered by dead gods and thier killer taking over the barge of the dead.

  Just after (or perhaps during) the HerQ occupation, the Klingon start to acquire their invader's sceintific knowledge, jumping from a agrarian society to an interstellar spaceflight in about 200 years or so.  Science can now fill the void and become the place to look for answers to questions about life.  But Klingons are not known for science, so how do they answer new unanswerble questions that come along?

    Old School fandom appearently has a dozen Klingon gods.  Pawns and Symbols(P&S) mentions two, but I have heard from other fans that the others have been defined.  Using P&S as an arguement against klingons having gods takes quite a bit of butlh or chutzpah.

Durgath- The god of War, a dragon-like beast.  The god of Warriors, chief of all Klingon gods.

Cymele-  The goddes of fertility, a cloak wearing anthropomorphic personification.


   Heck, without gods you miss out on a lot of new curses, exclamations and idioms that you otherwise would have access to.    For Paramount to try to take that off the table, takes a lot out of creative space out of the Klingon Culture.  I perfer not to lose this, but I have yet to find a way to work it in, while still paying some sort of lip service to canon...  Maybe they were the gods of the HerQ imposed into their culture for 200 years and never were completely purged....
« Last Edit: 04 19, 2004, 10:28: PM by Klythe » Logged
qoSagh
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« Reply #8 on: 04 20, 2004, 11:25: AM »

What an interesting and utterly amazing idea. A Klingon who, despite modern convention, still remembers and believes in the Gods. I like it. I have always maintained that Klingon culture was poly-religious. Afterall, human culture has many religions some of them in direct conflict with others, why should this not be true of the Empire?

So the idea that even though mainstream society says that the gods are dead and the qaptaQ says they were vanquished, there are still faithful worshipers out there among the Klingons is an outstanding idea. For that matter, do all Klingons worship the same gods? Is there a set pantheon or are there different faiths that follow different gods?

Imagine this conversation: Klingon A says the gods were killed centuyries ago. Klingon B warns him that they were vanquished not killed and could return some day. Klingon C looks at them both suspiciously and tells them they are both wrong, after all the gods made the sun come up today, how could they be anthing but alive and present?

 
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #9 on: 04 20, 2004, 05:13: PM »

I don't see why not... Although if you are talking about three naval crewmen or officers, obviously third would have to believe in a god of something less terrestrially oriented... You are constructing a strawman god for the believer.  Be careful not to do that, people could be insulted.

    Sun gods are a little too primative to stand the test of time, but personifications of emotions abstract concepts and social structures can easily endure.   We still don't fully understand why emotions work the way they do.  Anything abstract by definiation hides certain details to contain a devil(as the saying goes) or a god.  And the most important abstract concepts, our social structures; War, love, family, can be the hardest to understand and explain, thus the need for a metaphorically structured framework of some sort, and a god can fill that need quite effectively.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #10 on: 04 21, 2004, 12:13: PM »

I absolutely think that Klingon gods would have translated well into the space age. Klingons are very adaptive, so I see no reason why thier religions would not have adapted with the rest of the culture. This is similar to the way humans think of heaven. For centuries we pointed up and said there it is, then we found outer space. Outer space, the solar system and similar discoveries has not ended the belief in heaven or changed its perceived location.

I did not mean to build the straw man, so I might have to burn it down soon. I used a very bland and generic example of viewpoints for each of the 3 Klingons just to make the point, not to actually lable or define thier specific individual religions. I didn't intend any offense, to anyone. Besides I am usually more overt in my offensiveness.
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« Reply #11 on: 06 06, 2004, 06:23: PM »

As I stated earlier..."the Klingon gods do exist, in some fashion, and a scattered few still believe and keep such tenants of faith alive."

I would be interested in attempting to catalog all references to Klingon gods in an attempt to further understand these concepts.

In the Day of Honor series, Armageddon Sky references tuq’mor – an ancient Klingon goddess, the mother of all curses.

The Left Hand of Destiny describes Martok creating a statue of Kar-tela, goddess of destiny.  The only god to escape the slaughter because no one can defeat destiny.  Kar-tela is represented by a lady dressed in ancient armor and flutter scraps of fabric, standing on one leg with an earthenware cup in one hand and an edged club held high within the other hand.

I disagree with Klythe that a pre-scientific society's needs must be fulfilled and/or explained by the presence of gods.  I just do not see Klingons in the era of Kahless being that superstitious.  While we may not have the timeline established, it was said the gods were destroyed a millenia ago, long before the time of Kahless.    
 
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« Reply #12 on: 06 06, 2004, 11:00: PM »

Quote
I disagree with Klythe that a pre-scientific society's needs must be fulfilled and/or explained by the presence of gods. I just do not see Klingons in the era of Kahless being that superstitious. While we may not have the timeline established, it was said the gods were destroyed a millenia ago, long before the time of Kahless.

    The time of Kahless was more than a millenia ago.   If it predates that, as it must as it is the creation myth, Klingons would be more primative than we see in the time of Kahless or after the fall of the old kings(be they Kharsid or Hur'Q)
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« Reply #13 on: 06 12, 2004, 01:08: AM »

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Klythe: The time of Kahless was more than a millenia ago.
The Star Trek Encyclopedia indicates Kahless united the Klingon Empire some 1500 years ago and references the TOS episode, The Savage Curtain.  The events depicted in the episode approximately occurred in the year 2269.  This puts the time of Kahless around the Earth year of 769, give or take.

The Kahless clone was installed as the figurehead emperor in 2369, roughly 869 years after Unification and 131 years shy of the 1000 years for a millenia.

We do not know exactly when the killing of the gods is said to have occured, and Klythe is correct in that Klingons would be more primitive 130-200 years before Kahless.  Regardless of their evolutionary status as a society at that time, they were still able to defeat or put down their primary superstitions.

The challenge before us is to hypothesize/extrapolate what catalyst within the Klingon population would allow them to step outside/away from their previously established religious beliefs - sans any scientific explanations for life.

Another approach would be the identification/understanding of the Klingon gods to determine why they lost their hold on an entire people and are any worth still worshipping within the Empire today?
« Last Edit: 06 12, 2004, 01:14: AM by weslipuqlod » Logged
qoSagh
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« Reply #14 on: 06 12, 2004, 06:19: PM »

Ahhh, a wonderful chance for a rant...

First a personal opinion of mine, Kahless the Unforgetable did not appear in The Savage Curtain. This is another example of the ever shifting canon, and the revisionist history which seeks to hold back Klingon culture. I realize that we have to ignore the smooth Klingons now because paramount says they never existed, but that still does not explain the two Kahlessmey. Kirk spoke of studying Kahless in the academy, yet still after all this research he was called General not Emperor. He was dressed in a modern uniform not the furs of his time, and he was considered to be a viscious and violent soldier, not the great unifier that we know today.

I have heard the excuse that General Kahless looked that way because it was the image from Kirk's mind. This we are told is because despite Starfleet Academy thinking so much of this enemy as to study his tactics, they don't have a single picture of him. Even if we assume that Kahless was a General before he became Emperor, both of these ranks would have been held years before first contact with the Humans. As for how Kahless can have two different personalities, well that one can only be answered by the powers that be. I guess we'll have to wait for the new enhanced version of the original series with better graffics (I hope they never actually get that idea).

I think that perhaps General Kahless was indeed a great and feard leader. I also believe that he was probably named after Emperor Kahless, long before his actions as an adult would have been known. If we follow Paramounts theory on names, every child born this year named George is the father of our country because he was also named George. Shoddy logic at best. General Kahless however great a military leader does not seem worthy of the near god like status that has been bestowed over the years on Emperor Kahless.

As for why the gods lost thier hold on the Klingons or why the Klingons rose up against thier gods? That is a simple matter of nal komerex khesterex. The Klingons needed to grow past what the gods would allow in order to survive. For anyone who has ever wathced the Legendary Journeys of Hercules, pay attention to the way the opening credits describe the greek gods: Ancient and petty, using humas as thier playthings. Imagine how a Klingon (a primative one at that) would react to this situation. I think eventually Klingons would begin to revolt against such gods.

Now of course a strictly military strike would not work, as the gods are strong. This is where fan creation comes in. The qaptaQ history we worked out has our founder as a scholar who gathered various sacred writings and studied them looking for the key to defeat the gods. Having found the path to where they lived went there and did battle, winning a sort of contest. The prize was freedom. Of course he also erected gates between the worklds to keep the gods from going back on thier word. This is why the qaptaQ refer to the gods as vanquished and not as killed.

One example I use to illustrate why revolt was needed is this. Take a Klingon family. Because of the warrior culture, they have a large number of children. Figure on at least 6 children, and 2 parents all of who need to be fed. The gods however require a tribute of half your food be left at the temple steps. This lack of food leads to a lack of strength in battle. Suppose your enemy's gods only want 10% of his food, who ends up stronger. Thius leaving tributes prevents you from growing, physically and culturally. That makes you wither and die.


 
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« Reply #15 on: 06 15, 2004, 02:01: AM »

Quote
This we are told is because despite Starfleet Academy thinking so much of this enemy as to study his tactics, they don't have a single picture of him.

    We don't have a picture of the much-admired Terran tactician Sun Tzu either, because both he and qeylIS exisited before imaging technologoes were available.  Before his clone, the Klingons could only have had drawings(probably very primative, pre-rennaisance art at best, assuming qeylIS stood still long enough to be painted) and verbal descriptions passed through oral tradition.  Given that we were enemies at the time, it's not like we would have given the Federation anything, if they asked.  Also cultural artifacts like pictures of Kahless would be pretty low on their intelligence operatives list of targets.

   If in real life, Tommorrow we encountered small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri (who are real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri), and we generally seemed to indicate to them that we wanted them all dead... How long do you think it would take before they Alpha Centaurian had access to a picture of the messianic figure known as Jesus?

Quote
Take a Klingon family. Because of the warrior culture, they have a large number of children. Figure on at least 6 children, and 2 parents all of who need to be fed.

   Assuming a nuclear family, a rather modern notion.  Now take a Klingon Clan or tribe living by Hunting alone, of 20-50 or so able-bodied warriors, one or two priests and a few children training to be priests.  The priests say the gods demand food (to feed the priests and the priestlets).

   Now, take a clan that uses agriculture for some of thier food.  The priests usually get in on that racket, and convince the gods to make the weather clement, so the crops will grow better, in exchange for a share of the increase(to feed the priests).  This usually matures into monestaries where the priests and monks grow food for the hungry of the village, especially if we are talking about Cymele or another god/goddess of harvest/fecundity/etc.
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« Reply #16 on: 06 15, 2004, 03:45: AM »

Point taken on the lack of pictures, however i still maintain that there were at least two Kalesses.

As for the family, It matters not if it is a nuclear style family or a clan style family. Tributes to the temple would violate nal komerex khesterex the minute that the family needed the resources. I think that is the basis for the phrase that the gods were "more trouble than they were worth".

I also think that the lack of benefits is what inspired the battle wioth the gods, regardless of the end result (Killing or Banishing) there had to be a reason to do battle. From the standpoint of a primative Klingon, even a relatively enlightened one, doing battle with the gods is surely a fools errand. Brings to mind that this could be the origin of "Only a fool fights in a burning house"

One interesting aspect to Klingon religion is that even in such a modern society, we do not hear of anyone stating that the gods do not exist, just that they were not worth worshiping. Scientific progress does not seem to have lead to any (further) loss of religion among Klingons.
 
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« Reply #17 on: 06 23, 2004, 04:37: PM »

Quote
he was considered to be a viscious and violent soldier, not the great unifier that we know today.


The federation knows the truth about  Kahless because once the peace treaty was in place they were allowed to freely and openly travel within the empire and in turn all the liturature regarding Kahless was free to access.  Remember at the time that Kirk was in the Academy and during the time of TOS we were in a sort of cold war with the Federation.  The only information that they had about the Kahless was what their spies gathered on intelligence gathering missions.  That information would most likely not be in depth rather bits and pieces from mostly conversations overheard by the spies and possibly an occasional opportunity to glance at the writings.   What was learned by the spies was then, most likely, put into reports and passed on to the Federation officials.  Remember that the Federation hated us then and what was learned about Emperor Kahless was probably twisted by the bias views of the spies and also by the Federation propaganda.  

Kahless gained his position as Emperor by killing the tyrant Emperor Molor.  He then united the Empire and tought us how to be honorable warriors.

Think of how that would be interpreted by an enemy during a time of hostilities.  If they leave out the words tyrant and honorable and add a bit of bias Klingon hating interpretation this is how I would invision it.

Kahless gained control by killing the Emperor Molor in what sounds to have been a military coup.  He then overran the entire planet and took control on a global scale.  During his reign he made the Klingon people into warriors who would fight and die for him and his regime.


Can you see how a few descriptors and a little negative spin can turn a truly great person into a dictator?

The only reason Kahless appears with two different personalities is because the image of Kahless in Savage Curtain has the personality that the Federation, in their bias propaganda supporting writing, gave him from the pieces of information they stole from us.  Had they openly tried to learn about Kahless they would have learned the truth and the Federation view of Kahless would have been different.




 


 
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« Reply #18 on: 06 25, 2004, 03:42: PM »

Even though we know of Klingons woshiping animal gods, I have always though of the Klingon gods as humanoid or perhaps more acurately Klingonoid. This brings the idea of killing/vanquishing the gods into more of a personal combat concept. But after seeing a recent view of the Komerex Stella (the collection is linked to that thread) which was a skull and three horns, I started thinking of Klingon gods as animaloid. If the gods were animal based, even with godlike powers, that puts the killing / vanquishing onto more of a hunter / prey concept.

I was also thinking that if these animal gods could talk like people but looked like animals, that might go along way to explaining the concept of language seperating beings as opposed to function seperating beings.
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« Reply #19 on: 06 26, 2004, 04:32: PM »

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Even though we know of Klingons woshiping animal gods,

    We do?   I don't, and I would really really like to hear about this.  Where would we know this from?
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« Reply #20 on: 06 26, 2004, 04:56: PM »

In Pawns & Symbols, there is mention of Durgath as a god. He is seen as a dragon like being, certainly more animal like than Klingon like. We know that there are Klingonoid gods too, it is of course not clear if these are all gods known to the same religion or not. These could be completely different pantheons. But at least as far as Durgath is concerned there are some Klingons who worship (or used to) animal gods.
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« Reply #21 on: 10 10, 2004, 12:43: PM »

Taking the concept of Klingon gods in a different direction....

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The idea that the gods are dead, we killed them because there were more trouble they are worth is more of a fantasy for the liberal writers than a realistic cultural evolution for a warrior society.  As we are all part of modern cultures, and we are or tend to hang around highly-educated science geeks...
Zan Klythe speaks of a very small and insulated segment of Humans, not to mention an unidentified and unknown percentage of the Klingon population.

The first refrence to Klingon gods I ever came across is this:
"If there are gods, they do not help, and justice belongs to the strong: but know that all things done before the naked stars are remembered." (This came before "The Naked stars" poem, and I suspect before formal poetry forms had been developed.)

This indicates that the existance or absence of gods is irrelevant. If they cannot help or be made use of, and are not an obstacle or threat to be faced, what does it matter if they exist or not? I believe that for the earliest peoples survival was a short-term proposition. It is the now and the near future that matter, not the far past or faraway hypothetical what-ifs, and pre-Great Revision Klingons were a practical people.  If tales of gods do survive to present times, they are distorted or fragmented because they were not important enough to preserve with care over the ages.

The stars are not constellations representing gods, historical figures, or anything else.  Rather, clear nights are a rarity on the clouded Homeworld, and the starshine that lights up a clear night makes it much easier to see, to note the details of an event or transgression, by mortal Klinfolk of the mundane world. Images more clearly seen are easier to remember and to relate to others.

-=- Kesvirit, who longs for the option of nested threads
« Last Edit: 10 10, 2004, 07:45: PM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: 10 12, 2004, 01:37: PM »

I like the idea of Klingon gods being irrelevant. This is meshes nicely with two aspects of what I have done for a while. First is that I have no references to the gods in any of the ceremonies that I have written. There are veiled references to the times of darkness before the Klingons lifted the veil. This could be taken to mean any great awakening, from the gods, from the Hurq or from some natural disaster or condition. I have mentioned the Ancient Uncarring Ones who were responsible for the Klingons being in the darkness, but that was not my creation. Some have taken them to be the Gods and some have taken them to be the Hurq.

Second is a belief that I have long held, that the Klingons consider all resources usable and have no place for something that isn't a resource. They do not care so much for the forests, other than to cut down trees to build cities. If they run out of forests they will simply sieze another one. So the gods if they are not a resource have no place in society. They do not help, they do not hinder, they are not important.

I do think that Klingons would be somewhat creationist, in that the Gods put the trees there for Klingons to use. The resources were gifts or a prize of some kind that the Klingons earned, for being us. It is still the Klingon spirit that has allowed us to properly exploit those resources, which means that at some point after creation but long ago in historical terms the Gods became irrelevant.
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« Reply #23 on: 03 31, 2005, 12:41: AM »

Here's a thought along the lines of the killing of gods being figurative not literal:


First I am inclined to believe that Durgath, Cymele, tuq'mor, Kar-tela, veqlargh (and all other god-like figures that appear in books I've not read)
are all part of the ancient religion spoken of.  Grethor and Sto'vo'kor are the same with restrictions not on honor or dishonor but on worshiping, following and/or pleasing the gods.

Everything was fine, religiously, until Molor took control of the Empire.  Molor's tyrant behavior is no secret and the citizens of the Empire must have been displeased to successfully stage a revolution.

During the reign of Molor, faithful citizens must have asked the gods to intervene and liberate them from the tyranny.  Once Kahless killed Molor it was decided that the gods were not worth worshipping, the warriors of the Empire rallied together and in a large campaign went from monastary to monastary, throughout the Empire, and destroyed all, or most, writings, statues, paintings, ect..  relating to the gods.  veqlargh was decidedly not killed because someone needed to guard the residents of grethor so they did not "invade" sto'vo'kor.

During his reign, Kahless established the system that is now in use throughout the Empire.  When he entered Sto'vo'kor the clerics took to assembling the teachings of Kahless and he became the icon he is.


The klingon passion for storytelling told of this journey to destroy the works devoted to the ancient gods and, throughout the passing years, it was told that the warriors killed the gods. Which is,in a sense, what they did.

This is only a thought, but I think it is pretty good.
« Last Edit: 03 31, 2005, 12:44: AM by voraq » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: 03 31, 2005, 03:16: AM »

I wopuld think that if the Klingons prayed for a relief from Molor's reign, and Kahless came forth and brought that reign to an end, that at least some Klingons would see Kahless as the gift/messanger/tool of the gods.

I think that is why Kahless grew into a religious figure. Think about it, if he was sent by the gods, and if he answered the prayers of the faithful, and he said he would return, then it is not too far a leap to collect his sayings and writings and see him as the continuation of that religion.

Of course those Klingons that did not follow the gods would have likely siezed upon Khaless as proof that a Klingon and not the gods brought down Molor's kindom. Since most if not all of Kahlesses collected works dealt with Klingons being Klingon and not with the gods, they would have been widely accepted by both groups.

Over time as the Empire interacted with other races and was introduced to foreign ideas and concepts, it became more secularized. Not so much because Klingon religion was wrong, but because it had no role in conquest. Klingons would certainly be too arogant to adopt any foreign religion, so the gods fell further out of favor with the general public.

Since Kahless was seen by some as a savior and others as a national hero, his writings never fell out of favor. In a way they probably replaced religion while becomming a religion in its own right. The Monks on Boreth are proof positive that not all the monestaries were destroyed. I have to wonder if Kahless ever thought of himself as an agent of the gods, and if not, how he would feel about the whole boreth community sprouting up.  
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