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Author Topic: watching tos klingons  (Read 2334 times)
voraq
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« on: 01 21, 2014, 10:06: PM »

I recently started rewatching all the klingon eps (and movies) spanning the franchise. When I got into tos, a question occured to me.

When you're watching the eps where the klingons are villians (mainly tos) do you root for the klingons to win, or kirk and company?
  I found myself  wishing the klingons would win and the enterprise would loose.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #1 on: 01 22, 2014, 07:45: PM »

I have mixed feelings on this one. As the Klingons of TOS were largely two dimensional villains, there is not enough said about them or their plans to win. After reading up on Klingons through the novels and FASA, it is much easier to root for them.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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voraq
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« Reply #2 on: 01 28, 2014, 06:24: PM »

I understand that. It wasn't until I read the novels (especially TFR) and, to a lesser extent, watched Blood Oath that I really started seeing the possible motives behind tos klingon actions.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #3 on: 01 29, 2014, 06:05: AM »

I would suggest Pawns and Symbols for some good cultural material, although completely different from anything else either before or after.

For a close to canon source, I would read Kevin Ryan's two trilogies that take place (mostly) leading up to Errand of Mercy. The last book was rushed and basically is just the episode from a vaguely Klingon view, but does tie up some loose ends for the characters. What I like the most is that they both deal with the Empire transitioning from treachery to honor.
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Kehlan
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« Reply #4 on: 01 29, 2014, 02:43: PM »

Must admit I never saw the TOS Klingons as treacherous.  I just accepted that the episodes were written from a Federation viewpoint during a time of war and hence portrayed their enemy as.. well, the enemy and therefore the evil bad guy... a propaganda thing.

this was very much true of the Kahless character.  He was taken from the mind of Kirk so was really an embodyment of  the Federation idea of what a Klingon leader would be rather than an accurate depiction of a real Klingon.
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voraq
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« Reply #5 on: 01 29, 2014, 11:38: PM »

I agree with you on the portrayal of kahless in tos, though I must admit I've never considered that entire Klingon episodes might be written from a federation viewpoint. I suppose like watching a kind of replay of the ships logs.

Pawns and symbols is one I really enjoyed but didn't recall when I wrote that reply.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #6 on: 01 30, 2014, 09:47: PM »

Of course I still maintain that we saw two different individuals named Kahless. One was called General and the other was called Emperor. Nowhere in our history do we float back and forth between titles. Even if Kahless were a General before he became Emperor he would normally be known by the higher and/or later title. Being that Emperor Kahless ruled so long ago, he certainly would have been known to Dr, Tagore and as such the researchers who took his work and gave it to Starfleet. Of course Enterprise retconned first contact, so that would again make the idea that Kirk thought of Kahless as a fusion a moot point. Even if he had never seen a picture, Starfleet knowledge was that older Klingons had ridges and newer ones did not.

What I meant by treacherous was not so much being without honor, I have posted before that I think TOS Klingons were following a code, just not one that was plainly understandable by humans (or Vulcans for that matter). However that is the most common adjective I have heard the TOS Klingons described with. Klingons of the day had a devotion to their Empire and their cause that is much like what we saw fighting imperial Japan. Part of this was of course bolstered by the Organians for unknown reasons. However it gave humans the perception that the Klingons were brutal and would win at any cost.

The Klingons of TNG with the resurgence of the cult of Boreth, while raising honor to a pinnacle, still would debate which path was more honorable. They would still act in ways that others saw as dishonorable. Worf would not give blood to an enemy because it was not honorable, yet Duras would conspire with that same enemy all the while claiming to be doing the honorable thing. So to some extent honor is a personal thing, yet is judged on a larger societal level.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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voraq
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« Reply #7 on: 01 31, 2014, 03:08: AM »

Which might explain kang's remark to dax, in Blood Oath. "Honor is not what it used to be."
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Kehlan
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« Reply #8 on: 01 31, 2014, 09:44: AM »

. Even if he had never seen a picture, Starfleet knowledge was that older Klingons had ridges and newer ones did not.

Yes but even if youve been told that early Klingons have ridges and even if youve seen pictures in a book, all the Klingons Kirk ever met were the fusion kind.  So its very likely that if he were to picture a Klingon in his mind, thats how he would imagine them.  When I was very young, I imagined God as an old man with a long white beard, wearing an equally long white robe and sitting oon a cloud. As an adult I'm aware that if God exists he certainly isnt anything like that old image.  But quite frankly I have no better image to replace it with and if a powerful alien were to have a root round in my mind and bring characters from it to life, then I have a sneaking suspicion that God would be portrayed as that old man.  Likewise with Kirk and Kahless.

Youre right of course, there could have been many leaders named Kahless.  Much as in this society we name children ater influential people, there is no reason to  think Klingon parents might not do similar (although probably not names from the latest reality show or pop star).  although the Kahless that Kirk imagined may not even have been a real person as such, more a vague amorphous ideal of the archypical evil enemy  as described by Federation propaganda.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #9 on: 01 31, 2014, 06:12: PM »

I think of General Kahless as a 23rd (or possible 22nd) century leader who was named after Emperor Kahless as they displayed no common traits between the two of them. I have also thought that there might even be a third Kahless (not counting the clone) because of some fo the stories written about General Kahless, that portray him as a naval officer. Although Marc Okrand may have fixed this in one of his books with a single rank table.

Rememebr also that the only reference to them being the same came from a book written not by authors (previous to that book), script writers or even editors, but by graphic artists who contributed much to Trek but up until the encyclopedia all of it visual.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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generalhal
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« Reply #10 on: 07 05, 2014, 08:32: AM »

I recently started rewatching all the klingon eps (and movies) spanning the franchise. When I got into tos, a question occured to me.

When you're watching the eps where the klingons are villians (mainly tos) do you root for the klingons to win, or kirk and company?
  I found myself  wishing the klingons would win and the enterprise would loose.
I want the Klingons to win
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