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Author Topic: From tai to Epetai  (Read 23371 times)
SoplaHtaHwI'
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« on: 02 25, 2004, 12:07: AM »

I am cooperating in Wikipedia and try to maintain the Dutch versions of the pages about Klingon, the Klingon language(s) and Star Trek.

Because I am currently working on a piece about Klingonaase, and I do not have TFR at hand (it's with my parents in a different country!), I want to ask you suvwI'mey for a little brain-kick...

the honorsystem that goes from tai to Epetai, what titles does it hold again?

I remember vaguely from reading The Final Reflection that there was a convention to the names of Klingons, once they entered (or was it finished) the academy. Can someone again kick me in the head with the right letters and their respective parts of the Hubbeq tlhIngan?

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« Reply #1 on: 03 07, 2004, 08:46: AM »

Honorifics and Naming Customs

Quote
Because I am currently working on a piece about Klingonaase, and I do not have TFR at hand (it's with my parents in a different country!), I want to ask you suvwI'mey for a little brain-kick...
To begin with, it is spelled klingonaase. Note the lack of capitalization. Proper use of capital and lowercase letters is as important in klingonaase as it is in tlhIngan Hol.

Quote
the honorsystem that goes from tai to Epetai, what titles does it hold again?
According to the Wiener Primeval, named after author Stewart Wiener, the order of honorific rankings is:
    tai - has done nothing notable but conducts him/herself accordingly and deserves some respect.
    vestai - same as above, yet having done at least one notable act
    sutai - has done several notable acts. Most commanders have this.
    zantai - high honor in personal acts as well as those of the lineage.
    epetai - rarely used for anyone below Klingon middle age unless as an insult.
I do not know how accurate this is. Much of the book is open to interpretation and dependent on context. But have found nothing to contradict it.

Honorifics appear to be independant of rank, though it would be hard to rise very far without distinguishing one's self...

Because TFR takes place within a military setting and because of the emphasis on "notable acts", I am guessing that this is primarily a military custom. I do not know what civillian equivalents there may be.

Quote
I remember vaguely from reading The Final Reflection that there was a convention to the names of Klingons, once they entered (or was it finished) the academy. Can someone again kick me in the head with the right letters and their respective parts of the Hubbeq tlhIngan?
The clearest example, which isn't really that clear, applies only to the Imperial Navy and runs pp. 90-94:
The Gunner addresses Vrenn as Krenn. "Vrenn was getting used to the officers ennobling his name, though it couldn't be final until the Navy made his promotions official."...***..."Vrenn wondered if he ought to wait, just until his Lieutenancy came through in cold metal".  

When rousted during the night for a meeting that didn't exist, Merzhan addressed him as Lieutenant, and no one said anything when he put on the rank marks. At the meeting he accepts the command. The scene ends with: "You'll have to change your name now."

Gelly was Kelly when she reappeared in the story as a Lieutenant.

There appears to be a similar system in that Marine officers' change their names to begin with M and scientists with A, though this is never explicitly stated.

However -- Merzhan was an ensign, and p. 125 mentions an Ensign Kintata. This needn't negate the system; perhaps their birth names began with M and K.

I hope there is some useful information somewhere in all that.

As to the Hubbeq tlhIngan, I have no idea what the equivalents might be. The system used in TFR seems to have been officially disavowed and thrown out the airlock once TNG hit the air, so I suspect there are no equivalents.


Also regarding the Hubbeq tlhIngan -- Please re-read the Posting Guidelines regarding the use of tlhIngan Hol on the boards: "If your post includes words in tlhIngan Hol, please provide an English translation somewhere within the post unless you are posting in the 'Conversation in tlhIngan Hol only' section...."

Very few of our posters have a working knowledge of tlhIngan Hol. Not everyone seeks to learn it; of those that do, most are beginners. Many do not have the money to invest in the many books and tapes required for the undertaking. This and other issues have created signifigant confusion and discord in the past -- hence the translation requirement.

-=- Kesvirit
« Last Edit: 03 09, 2004, 06:16: PM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: 03 07, 2004, 09:54: AM »

SoplaHtaHwI'

Quote
I want to ask you suvwI'mey for a little brain-kick...

Just to note, the plural noun suffix for beings capable of using language  is
-pu'

So that would be suvwI'pu'
« Last Edit: 03 09, 2004, 06:12: PM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 03 07, 2004, 11:10: AM »

Quote
According to the Wiener Primeval, named after author Stewart Wiener, the order of honorific rankings is:
That's an enlightening text indeed.
Quote
Kesvirit: Also regarding the Hubbeq tlhIngan -- Please re-read the Posting Guidelines regarding the use of tlhIngan Hol on the boards: "If your post includes words in tlhIngan Hol, please provide an English translation somewhere within the post unless you are posting in the 'Conversation in tlhIngan Hol only' section...."
I apologise.
Quote
Kapact: Just to note, the plural noun suffix for beings capable of using language is -pu'
It was in fact the first "mistake" I made trying to translate something, so I know this. But it was then explaned that similar to scattered bodyparts can take the suffix -mey , so too suvwI'mey  could mean warriors scattered all about. And as we are not all in the same place/continent, I thought it appropriate to use it again.

on page 23 of TKD it even gives the example with puq  (child):

puq - child
puqpu' - children
puqmey - children all over the place Smiley
« Last Edit: 03 07, 2004, 11:26: AM by SoplaHtaHwI' » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 03 07, 2004, 11:40: AM »

SoplaHtaHwI'

Quote
suvwI'mey could mean warriors scattered all about. And as we are not all in the same place/continent, I thought it appropriate to use it again.

Fair enough. I am a bit of a purist when it comes to Hol, but you make a good point there.

MajQa'
« Last Edit: 03 09, 2004, 06:09: PM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 03 07, 2004, 10:58: PM »

Quote
quoth SoplaHtaHwI' suvwI'mey could mean warriors scattered all about. And as we are not all in the same place/continent, I thought it appropriate to use it again.
I almost asked why you were asking questions of those who would be unable to reply. Then I remembered that there were other uses of the plural and went looking for them...

Quote
quoth Kapact Fair enough. I am a bit of a purist when it comes to Hol, but you make a good point there.

MajQa'
I would think a purist would have made a comment on the lowercase s used in "suvwI'mey" and avoided the capital M in "MajQa'". Neither is part of the Romanized character/grapheme inventory used to write tlhIngan Hol.

*calls out to avatar, waving nits in the air* Fluffy! Snacks! }}: )

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« Reply #6 on: 03 08, 2004, 01:28: AM »

Kesvirit

Quote
I would think a purist would have made a comment on the lowercase s used in "suvwI'mey" and avoided the capital M in "MajQa'". Neither is part of the Romanized character/grapheme inventory used to write tlhIngan Hol.

He would have had he been paying attention........

 :lol:
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« Reply #7 on: 01 08, 2006, 02:44: AM »

Since I was researching a related topic, and came across some of my old FASA stuff, I thought I would dredge this thread up once more:

...The linenames bear a prefix indicating personal status. in ascending order these are
NO PREFIX - a youth who has yet to do anything noteworthy.
tai
vestai
Sutai
zantai
epetai
Any serving ships officer would be tai or perhaps vestai if highly placed. A Captain would be sutai, possibly zantai if he had done something very famous or distinguished. An Admiral would be zantai certainly. epetai is very rare, and would never be applied (except as a mockery) to anyone under the age of 50....
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« Reply #8 on: 01 08, 2006, 01:14: PM »

It Might Be Noted that Many Fan Clubs (Who Have Modeled their Honorifics System off of those Found In TFR and FASA), Use Honorifics Sort of Like "Steps" Within Ranks, so that a Promotion To The Rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade,(Generally the First which is Eligible for an Honorific),  might Be Followed with a Promotion to LT. JG and an Added tai Suffix...

Further, Honorifcs (At Least Within K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet), Are Rarely "Allowed" to Exceed certain Ranks... For Instance Although Very Rare a Lieutenant Might be Granted the Honorific of vestai, (An Honorific Normally Reserved For Lieutenant Commander)...

The Following is Taken Directly From Our (K.L.A.W. 4th Fleets) Handbook...

SECTION 7.2.....KLINGON HONORIFIC

As reflected in Star Trek: The Role Playing Game, the following system of personal Honorific is used:

Enlisted (E-00 - E-07).....................................no honorific
Midshipman (O-00).........................................no honorific
Ensign - Lieutenant (O-01 - O-03).................tai-
Lt. Cmdr - Cmdr (O-04 - O-05)......................vestai-
Captain (O-06)................................................sutai-
Admiral - Grand Admiral (O-07 - O-09)........zantai-
Thought Admiral (O-10)..................................epetai-

An honorific automatically comes with the rank (i.e.: If you are an Ensign, your honorific is "tai".)

Honorifics can be improved by one step beyond the above (ex.: A Lieutenant with the honorific of "tai-" is upgraded to the honorific of "vestai-") through an outstanding accomplishment. This kind of improvement is awarded by the Vessel Commander or the Legion Staff.


Since Fan Based Info is the Only Really Dynamic Source Out there these Days I Figured I Offer an Example of How "We" Use these... Perhaps it will be Of Usefullness...

Honorifics are placed just after a Klingon's proper name and just before the line name (ex.: Captain Kanga sutai-Roo). If one does not have a line name, no honorific is displayed. Once an honorific has been earned it can only be removed by the Council of Lords.




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« Reply #9 on: 01 08, 2006, 01:49: PM »

I wondered how the 4th fleet did this, because KLAW (LI) and it's offshoot the 11th IKEF, used the same system. I was present at a few promotion ceremonies where the commander would award someone a higher military rank and then allow them the higher honorific. I have always thought that honorifics were something house based and were only roughly equivalent to military rank. But in a military based club the functionality lead to the command staff giving out honorifics. With the rise of so many houses within fandom, this may change.

There were already houses but within the clubs I dealt with when I started, members chose a nae if it were FASA or were given a name if it was fan created, but only a few of the houses acted like houses. Most treated each other like distant relations or unrelated at all. With no structure other than the military command, all functions need to come from there. With a division of function between the military and the house, powers I think will be shared.

I don't think this will be a big change, as no house is going to name an Ensign epetai, or allow an Admiral to stay at tai. So I think the guidelines will largely stay intact, but with houses judging their own activity, you could see three Lieutenants with different honorifics, if one is barely active, one is average (for a Klingon) and one is super active.

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« Reply #10 on: 01 08, 2006, 06:23: PM »

Also I Might Add that the Term katai, Which may or May Not be Connected, is Used in The Left Hand of Destiny Books as an Ancient Term Meaning Fire Bringer, But Roughly Translated as Teacher or Builder...

When I Read this (In the Book), I Immediately Wondered if it were not a Quiet Nod to Fandom From the Authors... Regardless, I Jumped on it Right away as a Possible "Religious" Type of Honorific that Could be used for Priests and Scholars...

Thoughts on This? I Know that Some Clubs Use Alternate Honorifics, though I do Not Know what they all are...
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« Reply #11 on: 01 09, 2006, 04:42: AM »

While still a Karizan, I tried to use an alternate honorific that never took off and I abandoned it with my next character. It was lextai, which I used to mean something similar to regent, when one administers the houses affairs for a relative that is next in line but for some reason not able to assume epetai. Although as I have been rereading this material, I see that there is no rule that limits houses to a single epetai. It is not that epetai is the house leader, it is that house leaders surely would be epetai.

I wonder where katai might fit in the scheme of things?

I have found three different sources with descriptions of the honorifics, which I am combining to one document. One list was clearly in character, as is the FASA material. One list was clearly based on club membership, but worked well. I have found that the sets compliment each other nicely.
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« Reply #12 on: 01 09, 2006, 02:58: PM »

On the Social Rank of epetai... We Have No Members that Hold "epetai" as a term of Stand alone Social Rank... It is Assumed to Be So Rare as to be more of an Insult than a Useable Description... With the Exception of Those Who Hold a Regional "Linelord" Title, Who Only Use it in Direct Relation to being the Linelord... (i.e.) Captain So and So vestai-Ridgehead, Who Happens to be the Linelord of the Local Ridgeheads, Would be Known Formally as vestai, but would be considered "The" epetai of the Ridgehead Line...

As to Where katai would "Fit" in the Scheme of things, I am Inclined to Use it in a Way Similar to its use in LHoD, Which is as Both an Honorific as well as a "Description" of a Type of Position... That of a Teacher, Scholar Priest etc...

I Look Forward to Seeing Your Compilation of these various Sources...

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« Reply #13 on: 01 10, 2006, 04:39: AM »

Below is a list of Klingon honorifics, with brief descriptions of what they mean. These description were compiled form several sources, both in and out of character. Due to this the descriptions include requirements that are fandom oriented and character oriented.

taI - The one who is civilized - This Warrior has done nothing notable but conducts him/herself accordingly and deserves some respect. They demonstrate an ability to be able to role-play and holds a basic understand of all things Klingon. Any serving ships officer would be a tai.

vestaI - The one of battle, battlelord - This Warrior is the same as above, yet having done at least one notable act demonstrating a good role-playing ability and has a better understanding of all things Klingon. A highly placed ships officer would be a vestai

sutaI – The one of discipline, maturity – This warrior has done several notable acts. They have demonstrated an excellent role-playing ability and hold an excellent understanding of all things Klingon. Most commanders have this, a ships Captain would be sutai.

zantaI - The one of fate, destiny - This Warrior demonstrates high honor in personal acts as well as those of the lineage. They hold a superior role-playing ability and hold a superior understanding of all things Klingon. A ships Captain who had done something very famous or distinguished would possibly be zantai and an Admiral would certainly be zantai.

epetaI - The one who is honored, exalted - This honorific is rarely used for anyone below the age of 50 unless as an insult. To achieve this, a warrior must demonstrate an expert role-playing ability and has an expert level understanding of all things Klingon. Most leaders of lines are epetai, as are Thought Admirals or Thought Masters.

Also, I see how katai would be used, I was just wondering if it would be in between two known honorifics or would it sit beside the whole tree?
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« Reply #14 on: 01 10, 2006, 07:32: AM »

qoSagh,

Excellent List... And Most of It Looks Familiar to me... Of Course it's ALL FASA anyway...<Grin>... But thank You For Compiling this...

As to kataI... In LHoD it is First Mentioned Before the First Name 'katai qoSagh' etc... But it is Hard to say, since I do not Know if it was an Intentional Nod to Fandom or not...

Certainly Honorifics of the More Traditional Nature (taI, vestaI etc...), Can be Placed any Where in the Name when used Informally, but are always placed Between the First Name and the Last Name in a Formal Title... It seems at Least "Possible" that katai could be similarly used? Especially if People started Using it that way...

Though I Still may be Misunderstanding the Question...

If you are asking "Where" kataI might be Placed in Relation to the "Rank" Structure of Existing Honorifics... I Would think that it Would Not Fall within the Traditional Rungs, but rather Would be an "Alternative" Honorific. Though Obviously a Great deal of Acomplishment would have to Accompany it's use so perhaps it would be Placed on the Same "Level" as sutaI?
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« Reply #15 on: 01 11, 2006, 01:01: PM »

The three main sources were a post on these forums and a post on another Klingon forum, and the Klingon Intelligence Briefing. All I really did was compile things into a hopefully coherent single source.

As for katai, I was wondering if it would be part of this list and fall in between two ranks or if it would be part of a parallel (and yet to be discovered) list, then equivalent ranking really doesn't matter.
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« Reply #16 on: 01 12, 2006, 06:42: AM »

I Tend to Think that it Would Not Fall Between other Rungs of the Honorific Ladder, since it is a Unique Term that Would Not Apply to Everyone Who Followed the "Traditional" Progression...

You may be Right about it Simply Falling into an "Other" sort of Category altogether... Which as You Say has not been "Discovered" As Yet...

Regardless I Should Rather think that it would Not be at the Lower End of the List... (Due to the "Teacher" Connotation)...

Hmmm... Would neQtaI be on Such a List....<Howls With Laughter>...
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« Reply #17 on: 06 05, 2006, 01:09: PM »

Also I Might Add that the Term katai, Which may or May Not be Connected, is Used in The Left Hand of Destiny Books as an Ancient Term Meaning Fire Bringer, But Roughly Translated as Teacher or Builder...

When I Read this (In the Book), I Immediately Wondered if it were not a Quiet Nod to Fandom From the Authors... Regardless, I Jumped on it Right away as a Possible "Religious" Type of Honorific that Could be used for Priests and Scholars...

Thoughts on This? I Know that Some Clubs Use Alternate Honorifics, though I do Not Know what they all are...

The organisation I belong to, Khemorex Klinzhai, seems to adhere to a totally different set of rules. I am a mere Staff Sergeant, I'm not yet clued as to how it works. One thing I know for sure is that I don't have a tai, and these honorifics seem to be reserved for outstanding "service" to the club (although I thought the "thought admiral", although we don't use the term, said we're not quite a club).

I'm going to inquire about all this and more. Time for my officer's test... 8-)
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« Reply #18 on: 06 06, 2006, 03:14: AM »

SoplaHtaHwI'

You mention using a different system in *The* Khemorex Klinzhai... I would be curious to hear more?
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« Reply #19 on: 06 06, 2006, 11:10: AM »

As soon as I find out what the specifics are, I'll post some of it here 8-)

All I know is that I am a staff sergeant and have yet to receive a tai.

IRL I have given myself a virtual tai after surviving yet another operation to remedy the Hydro Cefalus I was born with, but that's another matter.

Looking for the surname Klingon (I know that I've seen it!), I actually found the explanation of the Khemorex Klinzhai rank and honorific system

One thing this German organisation is, understandibly, very aware of (and takes every precaution to prevent) is not to seem a paramilitary organisation.

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« Reply #20 on: 06 10, 2006, 01:59: PM »

As soon as I find out what the specifics are, I'll post some of it here 8-)

All I know is that I am a staff sergeant and have yet to receive a tai.

IRL I have given myself a virtual tai after surviving yet another operation to remedy the Hydro Cefalus I was born with, but that's another matter.

Looking for the surname Klingon (I know that I've seen it!), I actually found the explanation of the Khemorex Klinzhai rank and honorific system

One thing this German organisation is, understandibly, very aware of (and takes every precaution to prevent) is not to seem a paramilitary organisation.



Okay so their list is the same basic FASA list that most use... With the Exceptions of *maj* (Good), and *majQa* (Very Good), which they have apparently reserved for Feddie dignataries, and the SuvwI''a' (Great Warrior) honorific that seems almost more of an "Award" as it lasts for 6 months only and then passes on to a new warrior...

As to your Physical Condition, my compliments on your continued survival, though I am not sure that Honorifics would normally be granted based on such... (From a Role-play perspective, from a real world perspective, you have all of my heartfelt recognition for your difficult situation...).

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« Reply #21 on: 06 10, 2006, 02:12: PM »

Okay so their list is the same basic FASA list that most use...
the list is the same, but as I said, the rules about who gets an honorific when are not...  Smiley
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qa'pIn [SoplaHtaHwI'] qI'meQ vIghro''a'
yuch betleH 'obe' la'quv
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« Reply #22 on: 06 10, 2006, 02:17: PM »

That was what was *Missing*... Had you seen any guidance on this point in the past?
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Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
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yuchvaD vIqvaD je jIyIn


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« Reply #23 on: 06 10, 2006, 06:23: PM »

That was what was *Missing*... Had you seen any guidance on this point in the past?
I've not. I will ask my HoD (captain) about that next week, when we meet up for a camping weekend.
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qa'pIn [SoplaHtaHwI'] qI'meQ vIghro''a'
yuch betleH 'obe' la'quv
Khemorex-Klinzhai member, IKEF member
Dishonored Captain of the former spacecraft qaDwI' Doq
Abbot Nej vIt
Highly Opinionated Klingon
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"I Will Take the Conquerer Ceasers Salad... Now!"


« Reply #24 on: 06 14, 2006, 07:29: AM »

Most excellent... I look forward to seeing how others address this...
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Archbishop Nej vIt SutaI-H'Nter,
Spiritual Advisor to K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet,
Abbot, Dugh toy'wI' Library
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