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Author Topic: quv ("to be honored") vs. -neS (honorific)  (Read 4284 times)
ter'eS
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« on: 08 19, 2011, 07:29: PM »

That said, i can see your reasoning with the revised sentence.  But I'm a bit confused by the usage of 'egh.  Would not jIquv'egh mean "I honor myself"?  Is that the same as saying "I am honored by <fill in the blank>"?

.

Well, I was misremembering a little. quv is a quality verb, meaning 'to be honored'. Used by itself, jIquv is fine.  What I was thinking of was the use of quality verbs with the imperative prefixes. In this case, you have to use -'egh (per Marc Okrand) with -moH. The classic example is yItuv'eghmoH 'Be patient!' (tuv = 'be patient'). With quv, it would be yIquv'eghmoH 'Be honored = Cause yourself to be honored'.  But in this case, in your sentence, jIquv is correct.



[Edit -- split off from reSIr's introduction thread. -=- Kesvirit]
« Last Edit: 09 13, 2011, 05:25: AM by Kesvirit » Logged
vaQDoq
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« Reply #1 on: 08 19, 2011, 10:56: PM »

Well, I was misremembering a little. quv is a quality verb, meaning 'to be honored'. Used by itself, jIquv is fine.  What I was thinking of was the use of quality verbs with the imperative prefixes. In this case, you have to use -'egh (per Marc Okrand) with -moH. The classic example is yItuv'eghmoH 'Be patient!' (tuv = 'be patient'). With quv, it would be yIquv'eghmoH 'Be honored = Cause yourself to be honored'.  But in this case, in your sentence, jIquv is correct.

Ah, i see.  And jIquv'egh would effectively translate as "I am honored me".  It's just not grammatically right.  Though i also discovered that quvmoH is listed as an action verb in the addendum of the TKD.  So the notion of cause is already part of the verb and thus not needed as a suffix.   yIquvmoH'egh then would mean "honor yourself" as an imperative.  Correct?

See, just one thread and i've already learned so much.  I'm already happy i signed up! 

That brings up another question- how does one express 'already'?  Guess i'll save that for another thread- this is just an introduction after all.  Smiley

Qapla'

-reySIr
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ter'eS
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« Reply #2 on: 08 19, 2011, 11:47: PM »

I would read jIquv'egh as 'I honor myself', but it's not really grammatical (or, at least, I've never seen -'egh used on quality verbs).

The use of -moH is a pretty advanced topic, but to be brief, quvmoH means to honor someone else (technically, it turns the subject of a quality verb into the object of an action done by someone else: 'I cause you to be honored' =  'I honor you.')

yIquv'eghmoH just means 'Be honored!'  It's actually kind of a weird thing to say.

There is no adverb for 'already'. I personally use the perfective verb suffixes: bIghung'a'? 'Are you hungry?' ghobe', jISopta' 'No, I've (already) eaten.' ( bI- 'you'; ghung 'be hungry'; ghobe' 'no'; Sop 'to eat'; -ta' completed action)
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« Reply #3 on: 08 20, 2011, 12:17: PM »

Interesting... since this is just an intro thread, i think i'll move my next set ot questions to the language forums.  Look forward to hearing from you there.  Smiley

-reySIr
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vaQDoq
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« Reply #4 on: 08 25, 2011, 03:23: AM »

Huh... just occurred to me... much better way to handle the issue of honoring...  Did we all forget about the type 8 suffix, -neS?

naDev jIHneS.  How is that not a perfect translation for "I am honored to be here"?


-reySIr

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ter'eS
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« Reply #5 on: 08 25, 2011, 03:42: AM »

-neS says that you respect the person you are speaking to. naDev jIHneS means approximately 'I'm here, your honor'.
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« Reply #6 on: 08 25, 2011, 03:49: AM »

-neS says that you respect the person you are speaking to. naDev jIHneS means approximately 'I'm here, your honor'.

That seems contrary to what the TKD says.  It gives the example of qaleghneS "I am honored to see you", not "I see you, your honor".  So -neS is applying the notion of honor to the verb.  In naDev jIHneS, jIH is acting as the verb 'to be'.  So "I am honored to be here" seems consistent with TKD's example.


-reySIr
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ter'eS
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« Reply #7 on: 08 25, 2011, 07:41: PM »

TDK says a lot of things that turn out to work differently later on in the language. I'm pretty sure there's a phrase "It would be an honor to eat at your house twice, your honor." that uses -neS to refer to the person addressed. I'm at work now, so I don't have access to my books, but I'll check later.

But I finally realized what bothers me about this phrase: it's so humble, so unKlingon, so Human: "I'm honored to be here"?!  Hu'tegh!, how about "You should feel honored that I'm here"!  Evil
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« Reply #8 on: 08 26, 2011, 06:45: AM »

First of all welcome reySIr. As you can tell from this thread, this is the place to discuss arcane bits of Klingon culture and language.

Second of all, great catch on that quote not really being Klingon. Although Klingons do seem to do a fair bit of posturing for position in conversations like that. Usually they will express that honor without lowering themselves down a notch. When Klingons meet it is presumably as equals until proven otherwise.
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« Reply #9 on: 08 26, 2011, 08:13: PM »

toH!  In that case...

ghomvamvaD vIchu'.  'ach tlhIngan Hol vIpo'qu'.  bIngIlchugh Hol QeD Hay'vaD choqaD.

That means: "I'm new to this group.  But I am very skilled at Klingon.  Challenge me to a linguistic duel, if you dare."

Klingon enough now?  Smiley


-reySIr

« Last Edit: 08 26, 2011, 09:54: PM by reySIr » Logged
chalvatlh
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« Reply #10 on: 09 12, 2011, 06:40: PM »

bIngIlchugh Hol QeD Hay'vaD choqaD.
lu'. ("Okay")
ghomvamvaD vIchu'.
The word chu' has been used as an adjective, and so most probably does not take an object, except possibly when using the prefix trick.
ghomvamvaD jIchu' could work, but it strikes me as rather an odd thing to say. For one thing, it doesn't actually specify that you're now a part of the group; only that you're new as far as the group is concerned.
I'd argue that one could say ghomvamDaq jIchu' ("I'm new in this group"), but I think some would disagree with me on that.
The most natural thing to say, I feel, is qen ghomvam vImuv ("I recently joined this group").
 'ach tlhIngan Hol vIpo'qu'.
Same as with chu'. I'd recommend 'ach tlhIngan Hol'e' jIpo'qu' ("but, as for Klingon, I'm skilled") or tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI' po'qu' jIH ("I'm a very skilled speaker of Klingon") or tlhIngan Hol vIjatlhmeH jIpo'qu' ("I'm very skilled for the purpose of speaking Klingon"). One could possibly exchange the word jatlh ("speak") with yaj ("understand") or lo' ("use").
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QoghtlhIH'u'
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« Reply #11 on: 10 27, 2011, 11:41: AM »

About qaleghneS  
Like ter'eS said, -neS after a verb means that the speaker is addressing a higher ranking person and is speaking honorably.
In the case of qaleghneS the reasonable translation would be just I am honored to see you.
I see no contradiction here.

From Power Klingon

I am honored to see you
qaleghneS

Your gunners are skilled your honor
po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'
po' - skilled

Your wealth is impressive your honor
DojneS mIplIj
Doj - be impressive

Give me a permit to sell Dilithium your honor
cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS

Hinob - you give me

Permit me to explain my  mistake
QaghwIj vIQIj 'e' yIchaw'neS
yIchaw' - permit me

Study these examples and see how -neS is supposed to work.
The second and third are quite strange because the verbs are neither referring to the speaker or the honored one, they are just the verbs in the phrase.
And still the -neS rule holds.
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Klythe
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« Reply #12 on: 12 28, 2011, 07:24: PM »


This is actually why I often like to translate in three (or in this case four) lines.  First tlhIngan Hol, then a gloss over (which may be literal or or how a Klingon might say it in English) followed by the vernacular English.

qa-    legh  -neS
I->you see [honorific]  (most literal)
I see you, your honor   (English gloss)
I am honored to see you.     (proper vernacular Terranglo English[English as spoken on most of "Western" Earth])

   This helps us understand that words mean things, and there is more than one way to say things in any language.  And each language is different as to how things 'should be' phrased.  "I see you, your honor" would be a bit unusual for an English speaker to say, but ultimately it is ostensibly meant to be perceived roughly semantically identical to how the phrase "I am honored to see you" is used in English.  What it really means I will discuss below.


Quote
But I finally realized what bothers me about this phrase: it's so humble, so unKlingon, so Human: "I'm honored to be here"?!  Hu'tegh!, how about "You should feel honored that I'm here"!

    jIQochneS ter'eS   I disagree, noble Teresh.   

    You can't have a system based on honor if you don't have many ways to recognise the honor in others.   Acknowledging the honor in another who has earned it also adds to your own honor.  It shows you understand honor enough to recognise it in others.  If every Klingon went around demanding others honored him but refused to honor others, there could be no enduring power structures.  One should be honored to be in front of the Chancellor, or the high Council, or aboard a warship or I would arrogantly add on one of the most enduring forums for disagreeing and thought warfare.  Thumbs up! Cheesy Klingon Grin

    The reason it sounds wrong, is that in the back-translation into English the words become hollow and meaningless.   Native Teranglo English speakers will say these words and not mean them.  When a Klingon says these words, they mean them.  When Terrans use these words, they are almost always either pleading in front of a magistrate, sarcastic, or sycophantic.  The difference is far fewer Klingons would use these words to try to appease or gain favour.  I think it is because unlike Terrans, Klingons have little patience for sycophants and those who wrap themselves in other's honor by make no effort to be inspired by them to earn their own honor.
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ter'eS
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« Reply #13 on: 12 30, 2011, 02:25: AM »




    jIQochneS ter'eS   I disagree, noble Teresh.   



I just want to point out that this (correct) usage makes absolutely no sense as I am honored to disagree,
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QoghtlhIH'u'
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« Reply #14 on: 02 28, 2012, 11:32: AM »

Quote
You can't have a system based on honor if you don't have many ways to recognise ...
That paragraph is a small masterpiece of explaining part of the Klingon language and the Klingon (and for that matter: Terran) culture.

And as far as
jIQochneS
is concerned. It seems to make no sense to ter'eS but the whole point of the -neS suffix is that in some situations it seems to make no sense whatsoever unless you are willing to accept the Okrandian examples.

po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'   is a similar example because neS is a suffix to po', the fact that the gunners of the one who is addressed with honor are skilled. What is honored here are not the gunners, not the skill of the gunners but the commander of the skilled gunners. And yet the honorific suffix is attached to "be skilled".
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chalvatlh
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« Reply #15 on: 02 28, 2012, 01:29: PM »

    jIQochneS ter'eS   I disagree, noble Teresh.   
I just want to point out that this (correct) usage makes absolutely no sense as I am honored to disagree,
I actually very much disagree, for pretty much the reasons QoghtlhIH'u' mentioned. All -neS does is add a notion of deference to the addressee, and so I interpret jIQochneS as "I disagree, but nevertheless hold you in very high regard."
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ter'eS
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« Reply #16 on: 02 28, 2012, 03:42: PM »

And as far as
jIQochneS
is concerned. It seems to make no sense to ter'eS but the whole point of the -neS suffix is that in some situations it seems to make no sense whatsoever unless you are willing to accept the Okrandian examples.

po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'   is a similar example because neS is a suffix to po', the fact that the gunners of the one who is addressed with honor are skilled. What is honored here are not the gunners, not the skill of the gunners but the commander of the skilled gunners. And yet the honorific suffix is attached to "be skilled".

You misunderstand me. I was saying that the -neS suffix makes no sense in that sentence when you read it as "I am honored...". I agree with you and tesseraktik that -nes means that you honor the person you are addressing, no matter what the rest of the sentence refers to.  I believe the original question was about a sentence like naDev jIHneS, which someone had thought meant "I am honored to be here", whereas I would understand this to mean "I am here, your honor". I could easily see a sentence like DuHoHmeH naDev pawneS "He has come here to kill you, your honor". It would certainly not mean "I am honored that he has come here to kill you"!

This reminds me of an old pre-Soviet Russian suffix, just a plain -s (short for Vashe prevoskhoditelstvo "Your Excellency"!) which was used in the same way, to show deference to the person you were talking to, no matter what was being said. I recall a story about a very humble servant who was always saying Da-s "Yes, sir!" (not "I am honored that yes"!).
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chalvatlh
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« Reply #17 on: 02 28, 2012, 05:26: PM »

toH jIyaj. wa' mu'tlhegh mob wIbuSDI' ja'chuqghach qolqoS wIyajHa'. {Ah, I understand. When we focused pn but one sentence, we missed the essence of the conversation.}

DuHIvHa' veqlargh 'ach nuqIpchu'. {The Fek'lhr missed/unstrikes/misstruck you and hit us instead.}
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