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Author Topic: Taxonomy of the 'lung'  (Read 10978 times)
Kesvirit
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« on: 12 25, 2003, 01:57: PM »

Thanks to zan k'Tar for nudging what is left of my memory. Shortly after the Forums debuted (the first time), qurgh posted a file of thlIngan Hol animal words that he had culled from various unspecified sources. (I still have the original post in storage; if anyone would like for me to post it, let me know.) Among them were:
"lung | | type of animal; #loong# (lizardlike)", where #loong# indicates the pronunciation. I have tracked this definition to p. 281 of th KGT (Klingon for the Galactic Traveler) addendum.

Further investigations proved to be both enlightening and frustrating.
This site quotes from an old ('96 or earlier) KLI new words list: "lung lizard-like, salamander-like creature (n) {KCD}" ("Star Trek: Klingon, CD-ROM" vocab lab section)
The KLI wiki gives us "lung (n) lizard, "dragon" [Chinese, which Dr Okrand speaks; lung is Chinese for "dragon".]"

According to three different canon sources, all straight from the Sargh's toes, {lung} can mean a lizard-like animal, a salamander-like creature, a lizard, or a dragon. Although thlIngan Hol was designed to be economical, this is taking things too far. }}>:-( There are enough differences between these animals to warrant assigning them different names. I challenge any and all readers to ask me what they are. Go ahead. I dare you. Be sure to relieve yourselves first, and pack a meal and plenty to drink.

So there is some minimal and contradictory information on Klingon dragons. If anyone else has any information on these or other mythological beasts, I ask that you add it to the thread. This is an interesting and original topic on which little has been discovered or extrapolated.

-=- Kesvirit

[ Adjusted the forum title --Klythe]
« Last Edit: 02 12, 2004, 01:14: AM by Klythe » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 01 28, 2004, 10:45: PM »

Quote
According to three different canon sources, all straight from the Sargh's toes, {lung} can mean a lizard-like animal, a salamander-like creature, a lizard, or a dragon. Although thlIngan Hol was designed to be economical, this is taking things too far. }}>:-(

     In many ways this word is more specific than "reptile" except that it also includes salamaders which are amphibians.   We don't know if this term comes from common experience classification or if Klingon science places less distiction on amphibians(dry or slimy scales) and reptiles than it does on body shapes or other features.    In common English most speakers would accept a salamanders and dragons as a type of lizards.  So lung would probably not be that much different in usage than the word lizard.   I believe the only actual dragons on Earth the Kimodo Dragons, are classified scientifically in the Linnean Taxonomy as lizards.

Quote
There are enough differences between these animals to warrant assigning them different names.

     There probably are more specific names for the different type of lung, but as of yet we don't know what they are.   In the meantine you could generate thim yourself if you wish to be more specific.  Two obvious subcategories could be:

bIQ lung Water lizard or Salamander
lung'a' lizard but even more lizardy than regular lizards --  A dragon or dinosaur

     I unfortunately know nothing of Klingon mythological animals.

But thank you for posting the link aboutPuns in the Klingon Language  I caught some of the more obvious ones, but there are a bunch I never could have guessed...    Be warned, some of them are pretty painful...   Oh, and lung is no longer listed on that page... Perhaps someone deleted it accidentally, or perhaps purposefully.
« Last Edit: 01 28, 2004, 10:58: PM by Klythe » Logged
Kesvirit
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« Reply #2 on: 02 07, 2004, 11:58: AM »

Quote
quoth Kesvirit
According to three different canon sources, all straight from the Sargh's toes, {lung} can mean a lizard-like animal, a salamander-like creature, a lizard, or a dragon. Although thlIngan Hol was designed to be economical, this is taking things too far. }}>:-(
Quote
quoth Klythe
In many ways this word is more specific than "reptile" except that it also includes salamaders which are amphibians. We don't know if this term comes from common experience classification or if Klingon science places less distiction on amphibians(dry or slimy scales) and reptiles than it does on body shapes or other features.
Ah, how I love taxonomic warfare... the screaming of chalk against a blackboard, the smell of preservative chemicals... the further screams of Thought Masters hurling insults about their opponents' lineages along with pieces of specimen...

Quote
quoth Klythe
In common English most speakers would accept a salamanders and dragons as a type of lizards. So lung would probably not be that much different in usage than the word lizard.
I doubt that most English speakers would lump salamanders, lizards, and the kind of dragon T'Vala speaks of under one word. Setting mythological beasts aside for the monent, the word you want is herptile (usually shortened to "herp"), ultimately from the Greek "herpein" to creep. It is a collective term that includes both amphibians and lizards.

Quote
I believe the only actual dragons on Earth [are] the Kimodo Dragons
Hardly. I am surprised to hear you make this claim -- you are usually better prepared when you initiate a round of word warfare. Other Terran "dragons" include:
- the Inland Bearded Dragon (Pogona vitticeps)
 - the Eastern Water Dragon (Physignathus lesueurii)
 - the Frilled Dragon (Chlamydosaurus kingii)
 - Tree Dragons and Mountain Dragons (Gonocephalus and Acanthosaura species)

Many more (primarily Hypsilurus, Ctenphorus, and Gemmatophora species) are listed in this dragon "mug book".  With the exception of the well-known giant Komodo, these dragons are all small to medium sized lizards. All are common and tangible, none are etheral, and to the best of my knowledge none of them have elaborate mythologies to explain their presence.  None of them fly, have magical powers, or breathe fire, though the Komodo has enough deadly bacteria in its mouth to be classified as "hot" by any biohazard containment team.

And the beauty of it is that if you map out their home ranges, they all overlap and cut a continuous swath fron central Australia to northern China... *sigh* }}B-)

Quote
quoth Kesvirit
There are enough differences between these animals to warrant assigning them different names.
Quote
quoth Klythe
There probably are more specific names for the different type of lung , but as of yet we don't know what they are. In the meantine you could generate thim yourself if you wish to be more specific.

bIQ lung Water lizard or Salamander
This would create more problems than it would solve. There would be confusion between these animals and the Terran Green (Chinese) Water Dragon Lizard (Physignathus cocincinus) and the Australian Water Dragon Lizard (Physignathus lesueurii).

Furthermore, a salamander is not a water lizard.  Crocodiles and alligators are lizards who live in the water. Salamanders are amphibians.
An amphibian's life cycle is tied to the water. Even those in the minority that do not live in or near the water must return there to breed.  The eggs develop and hatch there, and the aquatic larvae undergo metamorphosis into adult form.  Some species retain their gills into adulthood and spend their entire lives underwater, sticking their snouts above the surface just long enough to grab food.

Unlike amphibians, reptiles have hard-shelled, yolk-filled eggs that are laid on land and from which fully formed young are born. Some snakes and lizards retain their eggs and give birth to live young.

Because the squishy bits of organisms do not preserve well, investigators at The Reptipage have devised a system to distinguish amphibians from reptiles based on skull anatomy alone. A reptile can be distinguished from an amphibian by the following :
    * Tabular small or absent
    * large post-temporal fenestra
    * suborbital foramen (small hole near the lateral edge of palate, between the pterygoid, palatine, and ectopterygoid or jugal, when ectopterygoid absent)
    * supraoccipital plate narrow.

Unfortunately, an hour with Google Images failed to turn up a diagram of a reptile skull with these features labled.  I have some in dead tree format but nowhere to post them.  If anyone cares, let me know and I will email you a copy.

For more on the specifics of Water Dragons and links to almost every of other herp in captivity, Tricia's Page cannot be defeated.

Quote
lung'a' lizard but even more lizardy than regular lizards -- A dragon or dinosaur
This begs the question as to what constitutes a Klingon lizard. We must know what exactly a Klingon lizard is before we can define the quintessential,  ultimate, or lizardly-ist lizard.

Quote
thank you for posting the link about Puns in the Klingon Language...
I thought you would enjoy that.  It is gratifying to know that someone actually bothers to click on my linked references. (It usually takes me multiple runs at the post preview function to get all of the BB code notations in the right place...)  

Quote
lung is no longer listed on that page... Perhaps someone deleted it accidentally, or perhaps purposefully.
Perhaps this is Thought Master Okrand's way of admitting that he was wrong to have lumped "a lizard-like animal, a salamander-like creature, a lizard, or a dragon" all under one common noun.  It is a common way for Thought Masters to change their stances, for anyone who has dealt with them will probably agree that most would rather set their own tongues on fire than admit that they made a mistake.  So they sneak into the data access panel labs under the cover of night to change the information in question.  That way they can pretend that it never happened, that it was always this way. I will do all readers of this thread a kindness by failing to draw a blindingly obvious parallel.

-=- Kesvirit
« Last Edit: 02 07, 2004, 12:01: PM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 02 12, 2004, 12:24: AM »

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Kesv said:
I doubt that most English speakers would lump salamanders, lizards, and the kind of dragon T'Vala speaks of under one word.

   Doubt it, but the word is used like that often enough that English speakers will not look at you like you are an idiot for calling a salamander, a dragon or dinosaur a "lizard".   'Stictly speaking' they will agree that these probably aren't lizards, but they are still referred to as lizards because they are scaley, generally greenish or grey and cold blooded.   Most Terrans do not speak as precisely as geeks do...

   
Quote
Setting mythological beasts aside for the monent, the word you want is herptile (usually shortened to "herp"), ultimately from the Greek "herpein" to creep. It is a collective term that includes both amphibians and lizards.

    Umm...  No, I am not looking for that word, I'm looking for a common everyday word that people overuse because they can not know every word.   They have other things they would rather be doing.   My point is that lung is probably not a scientific term like herptile is.  It's probably  a common speach term that is exxtended to it's largest usable scope to get the most out of it.

Quote
Hardly. I am surprised to hear you make this claim -- you are usually better prepared when you initiate a round of word warfare. Other Terran "dragons" include:

    I have disappointed you.  My scientific background is in more mathematical sciences, such as physics and chemestry.  I thank you for this information.


Quote
This would create more problems than it would solve. There would be confusion between these animals and the Terran Green (Chinese) Water Dragon Lizard (Physignathus cocincinus) and the Australian Water Dragon Lizard (Physignathus lesueurii).

     Why would non-biologist Klingons talk about Terran Water Dragons?  Klingon biologists would probably use English words to describe Terran lizards, the same as we talk of targhs, sarghs and pipiyuS, assuming that they didn't conduct all scientific talk in English/Federation Standard.   An English speaking tourist on seeing and of those specimens, would not be out of bounds if the one said something like "Whoa, that's a big freaking lizard".   The tourist would not call them a water lizard, because he does not know that thie official classification contains the word 'water'.  

Quote
Furthermore, a salamander is not a water lizard. Crocodiles and alligators are lizards who live in the water. Salamanders are amphibians.
An amphibian's life cycle is tied to the water.

    And an leg horn is neither a leg or a horn, it's a bird.  What is your point?  lung include amphibians.   Water is associated with weakness and amphibians are smaller and weaker than reptiles as well as being more tightly bound to water.   Once out of the water, an aligator or a water dragon's scales will dry off, while an amphibian will still maintain a wet appearence to thier skin/scales.  This is probably the most obvious criteria because it ties directly into sensory perceptions of any layman.  

Quote
This begs the question as to what constitutes a Klingon lizard. We must know what exactly a Klingon lizard is before we can define the quintessential, ultimate, or lizardly-ist lizard.

    How about big and scaley as the defining characteristics of a lung?
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« Reply #4 on: 04 13, 2004, 01:33: AM »

Here I go again, delving into old topics.

While I will freely admit that the only frame of reference we have is terran biology, I think that lung may not be a propper name such as salamander but a classification such as reptile. Now I know that reptiles and amphibians are different, but again lung has been translated as salamader like, not as salamander.

We can not possibly, without a specimen of lung, see what the similarities are that make it salamander like, but perhaps there is somewhere in the empire a classification of animal that humans have not discovered yet that fits lung to a T.

We as humans have sought to classify everything we have found on earth. There is no certainty that what if any life we find on other owrlds will fit into those classifications. Perhaps upon creating new classifications we may include known earth animals into new and more descriptive categories.

As much as we all like to sit here and pick apart things, we are forced to accept all the conflicting "cannon" definitions of lung, just as we are forced to deal with Paramounts revisionist "cannon" eveytime they write a new episode or series. The true art here is to find a way to adapt all the definitions into one correct form. Treating lung as a classification seems to me to be one way, although maybe not the best way.
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« Reply #5 on: 04 26, 2006, 08:11: PM »

Just a thought, but is it possible that the bregit lung that appears on the menu, is actually the creature of the category "lung", and not the part of the body we use to process oxygen?

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« Reply #6 on: 04 26, 2006, 10:19: PM »

    Yes, if I recall correctly, Okrand has clarified that this dish is a bregit loong bI'reghIt lung and not the lung of a bI'reghIt.

    You know.  I'm starting to like the word lung more and more already.  Exactly because it does not have an exact equivallent match in English.  qoSagh makes a really good point about our classifications of organisms is based on what we have found out about how life evolved on this planet.  There can be no doubt that the evolutionary tree of the Klingon Homeworld branched differently than it has on Earth.  So clearly we can expect the vocabulary used in their classification system to be used differently than we use ours.   After all, even on Earth different cultures have different understanding of the Biological Sciences and each one probably classifies animals in a slightly different manner.

    Khest it, I guess I'd better make another try at George Lakoff's "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things", to see if he talks about how different hyoomin cultures classified the same animals in the same evolutionary tree.
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« Reply #7 on: 09 19, 2010, 01:38: AM »

    Yes, if I recall correctly, Okrand has clarified that this dish is a bregit loong bI'reghIt lung and not the lung of a bI'reghIt.

The term for the food of which you speak is officially called bIreQtagh in Klingon according to Dr. Okrand. tagh is the body part known in English as "lung."

Quote
I believe the only actual dragons on Earth [are] the Kimodo Dragons
Hardly. I am surprised to hear you make this claim -- you are usually better prepared when you initiate a round of word warfare. Other Terran "dragons" include:
- the Inland Bearded Dragon (Pogona vitticeps)
 - the Eastern Water Dragon (Physignathus lesueurii)
 - the Frilled Dragon (Chlamydosaurus kingii)
 - Tree Dragons and Mountain Dragons (Gonocephalus and Acanthosaura species)

These animals are no more dragons than a silverfish is a fish. It's just a common name based on perceived shape. lung appears to be a similar term.


"not really a dragon, but that is a close approximation" (KGT 49)
"lizardlike" (KGT 218,234)
According to KCD audio it can refer to any animal of the general shape of a lizard, such as a newt or salamander.

lizard (en), dragon (en) (lizard-like animal; not really a dragon but similar)


According to the above, anything that is shaped like that is a lung. Similar to the term "humanoid," I could see this word meaning something like "lizard-oid."
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« Reply #8 on: 09 22, 2010, 04:10: PM »

I always saw lung as being the same kind of word as bo'Degh (bird, the most general word for a bird-like creature).

So I would define lung as:

lung - the most general word for a lizard-like and/or salamander-like creature

We also have:

Duran lung DIr - Durani lizard skins (food, never uses plural suffix)

And they have a picture:

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« Reply #9 on: 09 22, 2010, 07:07: PM »


Quote
The term for the food of which you speak is officially called bIreQtagh in Klingon according to Dr. Okrand. tagh is the body part known in English as "lung."

     I thank you for the correction.

Quote from: Klythe
    Khest it, I guess I'd better make another try at George Lakoff's "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things", to see if he talks about how different hyoomin cultures classified the same animals in the same evolutionary tree.

    No progress on Lakoff, he still puts me to sleep after a few pages, but I do remember reading an analysis, I think it was in Stephen Jay Gould's "The Panda's Thumb", about how the vocabulary of human languages compare to Taxonomic distinctions, and apparently, they match up very well indeed.  There may not be a word for each specific species, but the words that were used match up exactly to a taxon, I think he said as much as 95% of the time. Sometimes one word included two or more related taxa, or a there was a distinction in a language that taxonomy didn't deign to call out, but it was rare for the word for a type of animals in any Terran language to entire mismatch modern taxonomy, (eg. containing part of one taxon, and part of another).

Quote
Duran lung DIr - Durani lizard skins (food, never uses plural suffix)   And they have a picture:

    mmm.  Looks delicious. }}:P~~~~~~~
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« Reply #10 on: 09 22, 2010, 07:38: PM »

Don't forget toqvIr lung "Tokvarian Skink."  Wink
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