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Author Topic: Honorable- what is, what isn't?  (Read 19061 times)
kmtal
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« on: 02 03, 2004, 11:49: PM »

I never quite knew. I still don't know. I am a newbie to it. Of course (no offence intended) i wud never make it part of my real life. But what makes a person honorable, and what brings shame to a family, according to the klingon way?
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« Reply #1 on: 02 07, 2004, 03:17: AM »

I am gathering a response...  I haven't forgotten about this post...

   But briefly, in the shows the word 'honor' which has at least 14 meanings in English, usually seems to be used in the context of 'Reputation' rather than any specific code of honor.   I find this very dissapointing.  

    The some of the less canonical media such as books, are able to dig deeper to explore a more unique kind of honor...  I think I posted a thread about what we can learn about honor using the Klingon words that discribe it rather than talking about it in terran terms...   But it may not have gotten transferred...  I think I still may have it though since I discussed the same thing on TFC later....   So if you could give me a few more days to put my thoughts together...  I've my family over this week and they'll stay 'til Tuesay, so I won't have much time to work on it until after that.
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« Reply #2 on: 02 20, 2004, 04:40: AM »

On Honor and Integrity

Quote
quoth kmtal But what makes a person honorable, and what brings shame to a family, according to the klingon way?
Quote
quoth Klythe But briefly, in the shows the word 'honor' which has at least 14 meanings in English, usually seems to be used in the context of 'Reputation' rather than any specific code of honor. I find this very dissapointing.

...some of the less canonical media such as books, are able to dig deeper to explore a more unique kind of honor... I think I posted a thread about what we can learn about honor using the Klingon words that discribe it rather than talking about it in terran terms... But it may not have gotten transferred...
Unfortunately, that post was within a thread that did not survive The Crash.

Also unfortunate is that the complicated Klingon concepts of honor have been thoroughly corrupted by the Terran entertainment industry.  Thus it is their half-baked, slap-dash ideas we see presented in Hollywood docudramas. While zan Klythe is away tending to family duties, I will attempt to put together a bare-bones definition of honor.

The Oxford English Dictionary is generally rated the highest  lexical authority for the English language because it documents the historical usages of the words it defines. "Honour - high respect, esteem, deferential admiration; glory, credit, reputation, good name."

On the surface, this is similar to the definition of honor used in Neotrek. Unfortunately, most of the Trek  writers tend to confuse honor with integrity. Though there are several definitions of integrity, the one we want to examine is: "freedom from moral corruption; innocence; Soundness of moral principle; the character of uncorrupted virtue; uprightness, honesty, sincerity." Earthbound Klinfolk see this twisted mismash portrayed on screen and come away with a misunderstanding of what it all means. They think that their "honor" merely gives them an excuse to stomp on someone else's head.

Thus honor (glory, credit, reputation) has been reduced to a matter of politics and public relations.  It is integrity (honesty, sincerity, soundness of moral principle) that comes from within and is reflected in one's actions.

In reality (not to be confused with television), honor is an quality attributed to one from without; it is how you are perceived by those around you. If you stick to your internal code it is reflected in your actions. This in turn influences how other people see you. If you are consistant in living by your convictions as well as voicing them, your integrity shows through. Those around you will notice that you are honest, dependable, and keep your word, and acceed to you the "honor" of seeing you as what you might call "a stand-up Joe". Someone to admire and respect -- not necessarily for accomplishing great deeds, but as a role model for daily life. There is a fitting Yiddish word that more English speakers would do well to learn: that of being a "mench". This is an aspect of Klingon honor that everyone would do well to make part of real life.

Honor is something to be accepted graciously as a very high compliment. But when someone starts to brag about their honor, as too many Klingons do, the word rings hollow and the quality evaporates. The more you harp on it, the less you have of it. One cannot seize honor any more than one can seize a fistful of air. It can only be granted by others, and the harder you go after it the more elusive it becomes.

I hope that my "Intro to Honor" post has served to clarify instead of confuse. I will leave the Intermediate seminar to zan Klythe when he returns.

As to what brings shame to a family -- that largely depends on the values and priorities of the family in question and its constituent members. Applying it to "the Klingon way" is an even more complicated question, for there are many different Klingon ways, and they often come into conflict with another.  Both topics will have to wait until another day.

-=- Kesvirit
« Last Edit: 02 20, 2004, 04:43: AM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: 02 26, 2004, 09:53: PM »

"There is no Honor in attacking the weak."

You just have to listen to what is said by the Klingons, and try to live that way if that is what you are trying to do...

Honor is a way of life for the Klingon Family and Clan, just like honor is a lifelyhood of Japan. (Which I lived there for 3 years) If you dishonor yourself you dishonor the family, just like in the Klingon World.

It is just a way of life.....You must life honorabley to have honor.
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« Reply #4 on: 02 26, 2004, 10:43: PM »

Quote
i wud never make it part of my real life.
I agree with Kesvirit: Honor is wat is given to you by others when you live with integrity.

I aim to make Klingon Honor (read integrity) part of my life, not to reap praise from others, but to feel well with myself.
If that brings me honor, fine. If not, no problem.

 cool
« Last Edit: 06 07, 2005, 07:34: AM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: 02 27, 2004, 02:02: PM »

"Honor is more important than life."
"batlh potlh law' yIn potlh puS."
 -- The Klingon Way

Kurn, Worf's brother, said, "A Klingon's honor means more to him than his life." Worf passed the belief on to his son, Alexander, and adding, "A Klingon would gladly face the most horrible punishment rather than bring shame or disgrace to his family name."

The degree to which this Klingon virtue is revered is perhaps best illustrated by an action of Worf. Worf was unwilling to join Gowron in his invasion of Cardassia, in part because to do so would have required him to renounce his oath of allegiance to Starfleet and the Federation. Gowron told Worf that this rejection carried serious consequences: Worf would be unwelcome in the Klingon Empire, his brother Kurn, would be removed from the High Council, his family would lose its lands and titles. "You would be left with nothing," Gowron said. Worf showing the turn nature of being a Klingon, replyed with, "Except my honor."

Worf in doing so also showed another great Klingon phrase: "A leader must stand alone." ("nIteb SuvnIS DevwI") Which basicaly means, "To be a Leader you must first act like a Leader."

[Edit -- Attributed quote]
« Last Edit: 06 07, 2005, 07:30: AM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: 03 07, 2004, 10:32: PM »

Sorry about that, TFC moved to a new server and the Wiki didn't follow.  I found my old article and am in the process of updating it.   When it's done, I'll post a new thread in the Klingon language discussion area and link it here.

In the meantime, here is excerpts from a thread where I explain how the Klingons use of the cloaking device, created my those masters of treachery the Romulans, can in fact be honorable if done the Klingon way.


---------------------------------------------------------------
The accusation:
Quote
I think cloaking is dishonorable. You lie in wait in a place where your enemy can not see you or defend himself, and then when it's most safe for you, you pounce, weapons blazing.

What happened to mettle against mettle? Glorious battle where inner strength and skill win the day? Didnt the Klingons get such a despicable technology from the Romulans?

Arent they spineless and honorless? Why use it, Klingons?

  ...  Despicable...  From the terrorists who created the Genesis planet bomb?

  You would take the stalk out of the hunting fox and force him to starve because occasionally one will use it when it is not needed?   The hunters starve even though they are responsible enough to punish or at least shun those who misuse the tool?   How badly you misunderstand us, Captain

    Warriors should if at all possible see the face of thier oppenents and fight face to face once fighting begins.   This is why the Klingons in the TOS book "Flag Full of Stars" crippled their own computer-controlled supership, but then allowed Kirk the Glory of finishing it off.  There is no glory in having machines fight for you.

   Larger Klingon ships are not generally used for hunting raids.  They are more often assigned defensive and occupation duties.   They have cloaks mostly to get them into a new theatre of operations undetected.  Once there, unless needed to assist and support the raiding fleets against defenders capital ships, they are used to secure strategic areas for occupation.

     An analogy that is even better is the fox and the henhouse.   The hens are protected by the farm's fence, dogs, roosters, the henhouse walls and door... and the farmer with his shotgun.   By stalking in you stand a chance at getting past the fence and the door without immediately attracting the dogs, roosters and farmers.  Even then, there is no guarentee it will work, you still could be detected before you strike, and even if you aren't, then you still have to get past the rooster and dogs on your way out before the farmer shows up and it's all over.
 
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« Reply #7 on: 03 08, 2004, 11:08: PM »

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i wud never make it part of my real life.
what I ment by that was that i wouldn't make the Klingon way part of my real-world life. Again, no offence intended.
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« Reply #8 on: 03 08, 2004, 11:41: PM »

Quote
what I ment by that was that i wouldn't make the Klingon way part of my real-world life. Again, no offence intended.


None taken. If you read between the lines of all things Klingon Way, or indeed Honor , you will see that they mainly are the better traits of man. Indeed, expanding your territory will not necessarily be a good thing, but that's why I said mainly...

So In my view, aspiring to the Klingon Way isn't that bad a way to go in real life.
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« Reply #9 on: 03 14, 2004, 03:22: PM »

NOTICE:

I have been working to explore our current Forum and identify those areas where we have lost past discussions.  This thread of course presented a prominent debate.   Searching my personal database I discovered several elements of past postings on this topic and return them to the Forums with the next two posts.  

While the bulk of this series of posts were authored by me, keep in mind some comments were generated in response to other posts that have since been lost - there may be some turbulence with context.  Hopefully it will spark the memory of others and a greater reconstruction can occur.

In the last post that follows I did retain some of the previous comments from other members that I was responding to, still know that I do not claim the other member's comments are complete posts.  They just happen to be what I saved while working on my replies.
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« Reply #10 on: 03 14, 2004, 03:29: PM »

Leadership comes from respect, respect from honor, and honor from the heart as demonstrated through one’s personal actions.

"Everything that is called duty, the prerequisite for all genuine law and the substance of every noble custom, can be traced back to honor. If one has to think about it, one is already without honor."

Klingons do not worship qeylIS but instead attempt to emulate the example he presents through the legacy he provided.

Through the destiny of leadership, qeylIS proved to be an orator whose poems and speeches have been remembered for centuries after his death. He instituted the Laws of Honor to establish appropriate Klingon conduct - demonstrated behavior that evolved into a legal code that is still used within the Empire to this day.

The words are more important than the man.

If anything is worshipped within Klingon culture it would be the idealistic focus of Honor and an individual's place within the journey to obtain and emulate that Honor. The study of tlhIngan tIq or qa', if you will.

************************************************************

Within a previous thread I commented if anything is worshipped within Klingon culture it would be the idealistic focus of Honor and an individual's place within the journey to obtain and emulate that Honor.  Klingons do not worship qeylIS but instead attempt to emulate the example he presents through the legacy he provided.

Through the destiny of leadership, qeylIS proved to be an orator whose poems and speeches have been remembered for centuries after his death. He instituted the Laws of Honor to establish appropriate Klingon conduct - demonstrated behavior that evolved into a legal code that is still used within the Empire to this day.  

Yet what are the Laws of Honor, or more importantly so…what exactly is Honor?

Throughout the various incarnations of Star Trek we have been given insights into this concept of Honor. As this Forum has proven again and again, different people within a single culture can adhere to different beliefs.  It is this diversity of character that makes a society strong.  Through my studies over the years I have established that we have developed a wide range of definitions for what Honor is, or more correctly how Honor is manifested.  Through this thread I would like to explore that diversity and draw strength from the experiences.

************************************************************

I have commented that leadership comes from respect, respect from honor, and honor from the heart as demonstrated through one’s personal actions.  The Most Ancient Order of the Knights of the qaptaQ believe that “as a Klingon, each action you make, including speaking, holds a great prize in the balance.  Your reputation, your life, your very being is at stake with every word or deed…Act Honorable or do not act at all”  

I have heard that a heart without Honor is hollow.  To live without Honor is to forsake self.  To die without Honor is to be forever reviled.  It is not Honorable just to say you are Honorable.  Deeds always speak louder than words and there are some things we shall never do, no matter the circumstance.  When there are no rules, in warfare or peace, life becomes chaos.  Warfare without rules becomes barbarism, anarchy.

So, Honor is our personal actions and the reason we hold to our Honor is what life would become if we did not?  I think there may be more, that Honor is not such a simple concept.

“When you insult a Klingon’s Honor prepare for trouble.”  Klingons do not fight to merely fight, we fight for the nourishment of our qa’, our spirit, we fight for Honor of Empire and of family.  But sometimes Honor provides that both sides might be partly right, and we have to understand that before we go around killing people.  Honor is why we fight, not how we fight, we know this from the proverb “In war, there is nothing more Honorable than victory.”  Fighting a pointless battle does not add to your Honor – “Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat.”  

Then what a Klingon considers Honorable depends as much on context as on precedent?  What exactly guides one’s personal actions…ideals, thoughts, a belief in something greater than ourselves?  How does one’s personal guidance translate or reflect onto the group?

Other axioms include your “word of Honor” – an oath that is a stronger bond than all else.  A Klingon’s word is his bond.  Without it he or she is nothing.  One would rather die than break a given word.  It is dishonorable to deny anyone their right to do the Honorable thing and the only thing worse than incurring dishonor is refusing to recognize it as such.

The Monastery of QInlat believes that “Honor is directly determined through leadership – how much one accrues power and prestige, enabling the fulfillment of the destiny of leadership by exercising one’s will over the environment, how much one fulfills the role as a dominator rather than a servitor.”  For the followers of QInlat the Laws of Honor are reflected within the Imperial Standard, the symbol of our people as represented by the ideals of Empire, Duty, House, and Self.  Within the examination of these ideals we ask ourselves how what we do serves that ideal.  The order of importance is set and each ideal builds strongly upon the other establishing strength and harmony.  

Through this I believe there is Honor in how a warrior may accord another warrior, whom he has come to respect.  This respect is based upon personal actions and position within society.  But I also believe there is another kind of Honor, the kind a man must seek in himself – a love of virtue he must not abandon – no matter the consequences, or else admit to the universe that he is less than a man. From this perspective, no one can give or take away Honor.  Honor is what you earn (or lose) for yourself.  We must adhere to virtue.  

 
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« Reply #11 on: 03 14, 2004, 03:37: PM »

MARUK:

Salute one and all,

I am new member here, and I must say my heart this morning is filled with joy to know there are people who actually contemplate virtues such as honor in these times. Reading some of your posts I have come to realize those who truly walk a warrior path can speak freely here and be understood.

Now to the question at hand,

I will attempt to answer with a different perspective while adhering to Klingon culture.

We have all come know the symbol of the Empire. It has been called many names throughout the ages. Perhaps the least understood is the Heart of Virtue or tIq ghob in the ancient tongue. The Heart of Virtue originated from an archaic weapon favored by qeylIs, The Unforgettable. It is said he chose this as the symbol of his house and later the Empire because of the weapon's unequaled balance. Yet, this is inaccurate. qeylIs chose it because each of the three blades represents those virtues that are the very foundation of every true warrior. Duty, Honor, Loyalty. Each in perfect balance.

Of these three blades, Duty is the first virtue. Duty is the beginning and the end of the warrior's path. Without Duty a warrior becomes slave to vain, glory, and reckless self-interest. A true warrior will not tolerate these vices neither in his comrades nor in himself.

The longest blade of the Heart of Virtue belongs to honor. It is the most difficult to master. It has been said, "Mine honor is my life. In that I live. And for it I will die!”

What is honor?
Honor is the absolute and unselfish adherence to all virtues. To truth, courage, forthrightness. It encompasses all of these and yet it is greater. It is the fire illuminating the differences between an armed savage and a true warrior. It is the light to guide you along the warrior path.

All true warriors travel the same river of blood. If one is disgraced we are all disgraced. If one finds his death in glory, we all share in that glory. No true warrior would allow another to suffer an unjust disgrace nor begrudge him the fruits of a well-earned victory. Know this and your mastery of the Heart of Virtue will be all but complete. Ignore you and will ultimately fail your comrades as you fail yourselves. That is why the third blade is Loyalty. We are all combined by our common journey.

In closing, during my life I found all three virtues in conflict more times than I care to ever admit.

Maruk out...

KLYTHE:

Kesvirit's point is well taken. To discuss the meaning of human terms 'honor', 'integrity', 'duty', 'loyalty' is missing the point of the Klingon Culture.

Words like

batlh- To be honored. This equates to respect and mintaining a good reputation in society. This approaches the concept of glory, which was Kor's favourite virtue. It really is not interchangable with any but one of the many definitions humans have applied to honor.

butlh- Literally, dirt under fingernails, but acording to the notes in Hamlet (the Original Klingon version that is), it can be translated as guile, chutzpah or in the most vulgar venacular 'balls'. Being Bold, forthright and direct is certainly important to all Klingons regardless of station.

On the Klingonaase side we have klin, the warrior spirit which gives Klin -gons thier name. Connotations of hotbloodedness and anger (Incomming pun, pun sensitive warriors beware!) temper this virtue with an obvious flaw that it can lead to carelessness, and can turn warriors into slaves to vengence and temper...

Also, attributed to the old language is aetheln, the property of knowing your role and playing it well...

Loyalty and Duty are probably the virtues that translate best into English, as they are both very simple and similar concepts. They are both imperatives to accept the will of your superiors, and do your best to accomplish what is required of you. They are very fundemental to maintain social order in all societies I am aware of.

I think all of our proverbs can be explained with these principles... I'll have to start building a list and checking them off to be sure... But I can not do that tonight.

t’raQ weslI’ puqloD:

Qu’, matlh, batlh (Duty, Loyalty, and Honor); powerful forces that surround and unite Klingons.  Of these, Honor is the most complicated.  What a Klingon considers Honorable depends as much on context as on precedent.

Klythe has provided insights from tlhIngan Hol and he is correct in that character and courage are important virtues, regardless of the technical terms used to define them.  Yet I believe Honor is more than the application of a few concepts, it is a journey of self-discovery.  

Everyone will have their own interpretations of Honor and how those definitions influence their life, their current circumstances.  That much is evident by the posts to this thread.  The common theme is that one must have a code, a standard of conduct that one adheres to regardless of the challenges faced.  However it is not sufficient enough to have a code of Honor if one never evaluates their personal application of that code.    

The Klingon Way describes butlh as “effrontery, impudence, brazenness”; all synonymous with the word insolence, meaning “contemptuously rude or impertinent (uncivil) behavior or speech”.  While this is an admirable trait at times it is hardly a definition for the noble warrior or average Klingon citizen.  This may accurately describe Paramount’s depiction of the majority of Klingons, but as I am learning from Kesvirit there is considerably more diversity among the Klingon people than what is indicated by such a label.  

Maruk merely quotes Chang from the Interplay game, Klingon Academy, but his contribution is just as important.  To explore Honor one must identify and understand all the definitions applied to Honor within all permutations.  Only by evaluating and defining what exists presently can we select those attributes that most fit our needs within this world in preparation for the next.  To paraphrase Worf from DS9: Birthright, we must study these concepts all our lives and find new truths in them each time.

This is why our celebration and recognition of batlhjaj, the Day of Honor is so important.  Soon upon us, established within Klindom as March 23rd, batlhjaj is when we examine our behavior over the past year and evaluate how well we adhered to our personal code of Honor.  Our thoughts and actions are scrutinized as we answer the question, “How have you proven yourself worthy of the name Klingon?”  It is during batlhjaj that we test the courage of our convictions, test the courage of our heart.

Each of us has fought battles over the past year to claim victories through which we will recount the glory in song and story.  But for every victory we claim there was an opponent, adversary, or enemy.  To our enemies we are the enemy; they follow their hearts as do we.  Their actions, while contrary to our own, are in response to their perceptions of Duty, Loyalty, and Honor.  Honor is not a simple concept in that it sometimes means both sides might be partly right.  When examining our victories we must acknowledge the fact that our adversaries may have Honor as well, otherwise our victory is cheapened…hollow.

As we commemorate batlhjaj, the ritual Suv’batlh (Honor fight) teaches us that it is the overall outcome that counts, not the individual battles - how we conduct our lives overall establishes our Honor.  Yet to be true to our convictions we must examine the individual battles, acknowledging and respecting those involved as we evaluate our own behavior.

To assist me with this endeavor I created a meditation ritual called quvbuS (Honor focus).  This Klingon ritual guides you with determined focus on twelve primary elements of Honorable conduct: HoS, woQ, Duj, pIv, pIl, Sov, jeQ, qar, vaQ, nIt, and vIt (strength, power, instincts, health, awareness, inspiration, knowledge, confidence, accuracy, aggressiveness, uncorruption, and truth).  Each is a focal point that allows a Klingon to recall and concentrate on primary elements that contribute to Honorable conduct.  

The elements are not individual, stand-alone attributes but rather a cohesive approach at proper conduct and representation as a Klingon.  Each must be exercised in a well-rounded approach.  These “ideals” are scribed in gold around the rim of a black three-legged brazier I built.  On each of the legs is scribed wo’, tuq’ and Qu’ (Empire, House, and Duty).  It is before this fire that I contemplate each element, the overall concept of Honor, and my path within it.  As I focus on an element I evaluate my actions and determine how they contribute to the spirit of each ideal.  Did I in any way betray or fail to preserve the spirit, and how does what I did serve the standards of conduct I adopted?

Honor is a personal journey, not just speculation about a destination.  We must each find individually the meaning of Honor and how we want it realized within our lives.  This returns to what I stated initially, that there is Honor in what one seeks within – a love and dedication to virtue that must not be abandoned – no matter the consequences.  Honor is primarily what one earns for themselves more so than what one may accord another.  Through this self-esteem, confidence, and courage one is then recognized, respected, and Honored by others.
       
But it does not mean that it cannot be improved upon, strengthened, and honed – the journey for each of us must continue.  
 
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« Reply #12 on: 04 13, 2004, 07:58: AM »

Quote
Honor is something to be accepted graciously as a very high compliment. But when someone starts to brag about their honor, as too many Klingons do, the word rings hollow and the quality evaporates. The more you harp on it, the less you have of it. One cannot seize honor any more than one can seize a fistful of air. It can only be granted by others, and the harder you go after it the more elusive it becomes.
Awesome.  I was searching for info on Klingon rituals and came across this board. I actually copied and pasted this into an ongoing Word document that I have of quotes.
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« Reply #13 on: 04 27, 2004, 06:04: AM »

I have just read this post and felt that I needed to reply.  Honor can best be discribed by Klingon and Earthers alike as the way you live your life.  If you are true to yourself then you have honor.  

As was said in an earlier post here, honor is not somethin you can grab.  It is a way of living.

If you are true then you have honor.  If you are false...i.e. try to present yourself as something you are not...then you have no honor.

I try to see honor as the American Indians did.  This has helped me to figure out the complexities of honor.

A prime example is if you give your word, keep it!  Then you are honoring your self.

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« Reply #14 on: 05 09, 2004, 12:32: PM »

I found an interesting quote about Honor at work. One of my co-workers had this displayed on his desktop. I know it comes from a book, but he didn't say what the book is. here's the quote:

What makes honor virtuous, is stickingto it's tenets while your enemies defy them. A man who dies fighting with his ethics intact dies in glory. To expect your enemies to follow the same code of honor defiles that honor, reducing it to a set of arbitrary rules.

The only part of this quote that I think Klingons would have a problem with is the part about not expecting ones enemies to follow the code of honor. I think that Klingons expect honorable actions to be the norm. A Klingon will assume one (or an entire race in some cases) to be honorable unless proven otherwise. Past dealings definately come into play here, but without past dealings the honor is taken for granted. It can't be any other way in an honor based society.  
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« Reply #15 on: 09 05, 2004, 10:50: AM »

Quote
The only part of this quote that I think Klingons would have a problem with is the part about not expecting ones enemies to follow the code of honor. I think that Klingons expect honorable actions to be the norm. A Klingon will assume one (or an entire race in some cases) to be honorable unless proven otherwise. Past dealings definately come into play here, but without past dealings the honor is taken for granted. It can't be any other way in an honor based society.
I think taking honor for granted is not what Klingons want to do either.
Certain individuals or groups have an inherent honor, but in general honor must be earned.
Yes, an enemy is expected to hold true the same principles of honor you do. But I'm sure a Klingon keeps a healthy dose of suspicion in the back of his mind.

A certain ammount of honor can be implied, only to be taken away when the enemy is proving to be unworthy of this basic honor.

Honor cannot be taken for granted EVER.
« Last Edit: 09 05, 2004, 10:56: AM by SoplaHtaHwI' » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: 09 11, 2004, 04:12: PM »

I agree that one should never take honor for granted. Some quotes that are inour Klingon ceremony book sum up my opinions on the matter:

"To expect your enemies to follow the same code of honor defiles that honor, reducing it to a set of arbitrary rules."

"What makes honor virtuous is sticking to its tenets while your enemies defy them."

"There is only one kind of wound that is to be feared, and that is when the mind is wounded by giving consent to dishonor."


I also agree that honor comes from the heart, but it is learned first by the mind. In order for a Klingon to grow up honorable, he must be taught honorable ways by those that raise him. Simply because it come from the heart does not make something honorable. Otherwise we as a race could only be as honorable as the blackest of our individual hearts.
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« Reply #17 on: 12 08, 2005, 09:05: AM »

Honor encompasses many virtues--like love. Loving one's mate is not the same as loving one's brother. And honoring one's family is not the same as honoring one's fellow brothers in arms. And what of personal
honor? What aspects/tenets of personal honor do you hold in the highest regard? I suspect it is different for every Klingon.
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« Reply #18 on: 08 22, 2008, 06:15: PM »

I personally think that honour is much like Chiviliary of Arthurian England, or of the code that the Samurai lived by.
Maybe a mix of both even.
Who agrees with me on this one?
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« Reply #19 on: 08 24, 2008, 08:34: AM »

I would say that honor is not only one's reputation, but a way of life. Throughout one's life, things will happen. No doubt, you will eventually do courteous acts for people. Hold doors open, help those in need, be a good samaritan. I believe that garners honor for a person. I try to do such things everyday. Be courteous, be kind to those in need....
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« Reply #20 on: 08 24, 2008, 08:53: PM »


    Actually, I expect some things that we consider polite such as holding a door open could be interpreted as an insult for Klingons who strength and prowess are the greatest virtues.   Holding a door open, helping people who don't ask for it not only are simple gestures that don't truly aid you all that much, and they can easily be performed by malicious people in order to gain trust before betraying you.   They also may be taken as a sign you don't think they are capable of it themselves.

     What is considered Courteous is very culturally specific.  Klingons for example would be unlikely to be offended by comon biological acts such as belching, farting sneezing or coughing.  Most likely they would pay it little mind (unless it really and truely made the air more difficlut to breathe or otherwise left bodily fluids were the should not be)

    Chivalry and the Bushido code of Samurai are also very specific to their own cultures.  Now Fealty is a more general form that would be more likely to apply to Klingons
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« Reply #21 on: 08 25, 2008, 09:27: AM »

Quote
Klythe:   ...some things that we consider polite such as holding a door open could be interpreted as an insult for Klingons who strength and prowess are the greatest virtues.   Holding a door open, helping people who don't ask for it not only are simple gestures that don't truly aid you all that much, and they can easily be performed by malicious people in order to gain trust before betraying you.   They also may be taken as a sign you don't think they are capable of it themselves.

Unless I am on crutches or encumbered by large packages or, even worse, small children, my Human alter ego does indeed consider it an insult to have someone else open a door for me. Especially with the increasing use of power-assisted doors, I am not so weakened that I cannot open one, nor so feeble-minded that I cannot figure out how to open one. I’ve done so with my feet multiple times. 

Even the crutches thing bothers me, though it is a true courtesy and not a condescending gesture. I’ve spent enough time maneuvering on them to handle just about any substrate. (My primary foe is grating, and there’s really nothing anyone can do to help me there anyway.)

However, I am not so arrogant that I do not appreciate it when someone catches a spring-loaded door to keep it from banging me in the face.

In any event, in the name of diplomacy I grit my teeth, take a nice deep breath of cultural relativism, realize that at least someone’s mama made some attempt to raise ‘em up right, and give a nod of thanks.

Quote
What is considered Courteous is very culturally specific.  Klingons for example would be unlikely to be offended by comon biological acts such as belching, farting sneezing or coughing.  Most likely they would pay it little mind....

On this I disagree. Belching and farting contests may be acceptable while on leave drinking in a dive bar, but I would expect better behavior at any event more formal or serious than that. Which is most of them. Anyone who acted this way at a family meal on a regular basis would be sentenced to the kiddie table for life, if not banished from the tables altogether and made to eat with the servants or behind the kitchens. One certainly does not attend a war council and belch out an aria, and any ranking officer who cannot control subordinates to the point of allowing such behavior would have a very short tenure.

As for fealty, is that nothing more than a formally sworn loyalty to a superior? The need to confirm it is a relative rarity just because it is so ingrained in Klingon culture that few would think to question it, or at least take it into account. It is only when expected loyalties come into conflict that it becomes an issue.

As to being courteous and kind to those in need...  Courtesy *is* submission in a society based on gaining and holding power. An act of kindness is likely to be seen as a weakness or a ploy in a society in which justice belongs to the strong and the weak are to be exploited or disposed of when they are no longer useful. Think of Tywa (PAS), who was theld-barred (cast out of her family) during a time of famine. As a small girl, her family saw her as a liability and discarded her without regret.
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« Reply #22 on: 08 26, 2008, 10:14: PM »

I am actually one of those men that hold open doors.
Mind you, I will not go out of my way to open the door. If I happen upon the door, have noticed people need to pass (yes, not only women), I keep it open.
I do not assume physical inability, but rather do not like to close a door in someone's face...

Furthermore, I do not understand what people find so objectionable about sneezing. Keeping a sneeze in is unhealthy. One can stop the germs from spreading by for instance sneezing in a handkerchief or ones elbow-pit, sure. But sneezing should not be curtailed or stopped...
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« Reply #23 on: 09 24, 2010, 06:26: PM »

Very interesting thread and even though most of the posts are quite dated and the posters might not be active anymore, my gratitude.

Personally I find it tricky when different areas of honor start to conflict. For example, when in a dysfunctional family situation, does one honor ones parents if that means having to overlook ones own needs? Or does one honor oneself, act only in ways that feel true and honorable to their own way of life, even if that means not being accepted or understood by family?

As with first-aid course 'own safety first' drills, I tend to make sure I can justify every single of my own actions before I start to worry about feelings of others and so far that seems to work, although it's easily conflict rife.

Back to fiction, I think that when for example reading the IKS Gorkon books it's made obvious that like in every society, you'll find a wide range of individuals, with different values and morals than their neighbours and next of kin.
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« Reply #24 on: 10 28, 2010, 08:48: PM »

qavan AS'ti

When in a disfunctional family, I would address a family member's honour to this person. If it is your parents, point out to them it is their *duty* to honour their (implied) agreement to both themselves, the community but foremost their child(ren) to take !good! care of the latter.
If you cannot take care of your children, why have them in the first place?
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