Klingons and Bikers, a good Analogy?

[Black Hornet]

Noticed the biker connection here & there & wanted to offer my 2 cents. I don't consider them a good analogy or comparison to Klingon culture because they are not honorable. Their mottos are "all on one" & that they are the only group on earth that don't follow anyone's rules & make their own. Klingon's do follow their rules & are honorable. Bikers sell drugs & have no respect for the rest of society & offer no improvement to society either. I consider them a poor comparison.

[ Modified thread title - Klythe]

[qoSagh]

I will start off with the fact that I have never liked the analogy either, but for different reasons. Once we saw Imperial Klingons, and saw that many if not all had long hair, that is where the creativity stopped. I think the whole biker thing is dependent on two factors, long hair & leather. There is little if any cultural connection.

However Bikers do have their own internal code of honor, which is the only one they care about following. In this they are somewhat similar to Klingons. Klingons only care about being honorable by their own standards not by anyone else's, least of all the federation. That has been the underlying theme of Mr. Worf's character throughout TNG & DS9. You said as much in your comparison where you say Bikers don't follow anyone's rules, but then say they follow their own. Now as for the drug sales, that alone is not a reason to end the comparison, as we have seen Klingons doing many things including weapons deals that would be illegal by human standards.

I am by no means defending the use or sale of illegal drugs, I am just saying that as a sole reason to end an otherwise bad analogy it doesn't really hold water.

[Black Hornet]

Not the sole reason, but then I didn't mention that it was. My uncle was an eyewitness to the "All on one" aspect of Angel behavior in SF in the late 60's, beat a guy to a pulp, several of em. The guy was gonna spend several months in the hospital, if he made it that is. I don't admire that s--- at all. Dishonorable it is. The Angels are amongst the biggest drug trafficers in the world, so it cannot be dissasociated from their culture.


Some bikers compare themselves to Vikings, but even that I have issues with.

Here's a Viking myth list, ( don't mean to derail thread direction).

http://www.vikingrune.com/2009/02/top-ten-myths-about-vikings/


6. Vikings were exceptionally cruel and bloodthirsty.
 Vikings indeed were sometimes very violent. However, the question is whether Christian armies of the time acted in any substantially different manner. For instance, Charlemagne, who was Vikings’ contemporary, virtually exterminated the whole people of Avars. At Verden, he ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxons. Vikings certainly were not as bloodthirsty as many Christians of their time.

7. Abroad, Vikings did nothing except fighting and pillaging.
 Vikings did pillage many lands. However, plunder was only one among many other goals of their overseas expeditions. Vikings peacefully colonised Iceland, Greenland and many smaller islands. As explorers they crossed the Atlantic and reached America 500 years before Columbus. As international merchants of their time, they also peacefully traded with almost every country of the then known world.


At the end of the day, the Vikings accomplishments outclass anything any group pf Bikers ever diid, ( yes I know todays bikers are a rather diverse lot made up of many different sectors of society, but I'm talking about Angels/Mongols etc in the main).

Enjoyed your post BTW. I think we are mostly on the same page here.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Vikings peacefully colonized Iceland? I guess there was not a single human being on that island before the Vikings came.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Vikings or their descendants as such.
The comparison with Bikers is very strange and in itself an insult to the forefathers of the Scandinavians. Like comparing soccer hooligans in England with Anglo Saxon tribes trying to keep the Roman Imperial Army off their island.

[Black Hornet]

Good question. As I understand it there were a small number of Irish Monks in Iceland, but not permanent settlers. See what I can dig up. Yah bikers ain't up to scratch compared to Vikings who founded Dublin & were artisans & traders & farmers, not just warriors. Great seafarers. Can you imagine going in a wooden boat across the North Atlantic to Canada? They lived peacfully along the native tribes also for about 3 years before a trade dispute ruined things. They took 2 Native kids back to Iceland whos parents had died in a battle & raised them as their own. Not exactly the racists they were portrayed as in the Pathfinder movie, ( which was a ripoff of sorts on a 1987 Norwegian movie of the same title).


In a geographical work written in Latin by an Irish monk called Dicuil early in the 9th century, there is an account of the wanderings of holy men in lands to the north and of their time spent in these places. Dicuil's account has often been interpreted as providing evidence for the existence of Papar in Iceland, though there is no absolute proof that Iceland is among the places mentioned in his book. On the other hand, there were certainly Celtic hermits on Orkney and Shetland, as is proved by archaeological finds in these places.

[Klythe]

    I would like to point out that there are more than one motorcycle biker's group and that the one called "Hell's Angel's" (which was the original topic name) is not representative of the larger biker community.   I never have been, nor anticipate ever becoming a biker, but I think the judgments are a bit excessive.  The forum rules specify "Never insult or attack someone personally just because they do not agree with you."   And this should apply to groups of people as well.  Not all Bikers are drug dealers and thugs, rather a small minority of them are, but it is a stereotype often portrayed in popular media.

   There are already a number of good topics on Vikings, to add to, let's not go off on that tangent here.  I suggest using the forum's search function.  Most notably there is
 Klingons and Norse Religion.

[qoSagh]

Thanks for referencing my old viking thread. I went back and reread it. Oddly enough Bikers got brought up there just like vikings got brought up here. I wonder if the real thread should be much more generic about who and what the Klingons were based on, and has that basis changed and evolved over the years.

[Klythe]

   That's a good idea qoSagh.  I thought we we had a thread titled, "What is Klingon and what isn't", but I haven't see it in a while.   I think it was something similar.  But this could be different enough and valuable to have all the comparisons and contrasts all in one place.

   I've removed the double posts, and moved the moderation discussions to Private Messaging.

[Black Hornet]

But retained the uneccesary/unwarrated attack on  myself whilst removing my response.

Perhaps it is time to clear up this matter by demonstrating some responsibility & apologizing. After all, the rules state no personal attack, which is what you did to me with the false & vulgar assertion that was neither posted or intended.

[Kehlan]

I wonder if the connection between Klingons and bikes comes purely from the fact that alot of Klingons also ride bikes?  Ive seen quite alot of very impressive pics of Klingons on bikes at parades like Dragon con.   I also remember seeing a bike on ebay about ten years ago.  It was a customised Klingon harley davidson and it was absolutely gorgeous.  the starting bid was $10,000.  Now if any bike would make me become a biker, it was that one!  I never did find out what happened to the bike.

Its definitely unfair to tarnish all bikers with the same brush as the Hell's Angels.  The biker culture is very different over here in the UK (even the bikes are different, we don't have choppers, mostly japanese bikes built for speed) but most bikers are ordinary people who happen to like bikes and get together with other bike fans. 

there does tend to be a stereotype image of bikers as big burly blokes wearing leather and often with long hair.  From appearances alone, its not a massive stretch of the imagination to put ridges on their foreheads, hand them a batleth and youve got a klingon warrior.

[Black Hornet]

It is indeed unfair to characteriize all bikers as being like Hells Angels with the same brush. I certainly never did this. I hope this is clear by now. Am a bit tired with the accusation. & am ready for the apology.

[Kehlan]

I am not going to apologise for saying or doing something that I did not do.  I never accused you of saying all bikers were like hells angels. As far as I can see, there is an interesting debate here, so stop being so over sensitive, no-one is picking on you or attacking you in any way.

It would actually have been a reasonable assumption.  for someone like myself, who has no access to the biker culture apart from what we see on TV, when I think of bikers, I do tend to think of Hell's angels.  TV does seem to encourage this stereotype... have you ever seen a TV show called Sons of Anarchy? Another show portraying bikers as law breakers and general bad guys, albeit very cool bad guys!

[qoSagh]

Noticed the biker connection here & there & wanted to offer my 2 cents. I don't consider them a good analogy or comparison to Klingon culture because they are not honorable. Their mottos are "all on one" & that they are the only group on earth that don't follow anyone's rules & make their own. Klingon's do follow their rules & are honorable. Bikers sell drugs & have no respect for the rest of society & offer no improvement to society either. I consider them a poor comparison.

It is indeed unfair to characteriize all bikers as being like Hells Angels with the same brush. I certainly never did this. I hope this is clear by now. Am a bit tired with the accusation. & am ready for the apology.

I found an interesting thing on the internet, that actually kind of changes the perception of Bikers, that is the Bikers Code http://mrcaclub.ning.com/forum/topics/899987:Topic:112517. One excerpt that I found particularly interesting was this:

It has to do with respect and honor. Anyone can be a quick-tempered fool. Be cool, stand tall, and backup what you say with action. Never lie, cheat, or steal. Another way of saying this is to always tell the truth. Bikers are always the greasy bad guys in the movies, but every real biker knows that his word is his bond. Your word is all you have in life that is truly yours. Guard it carefully and be something noble, for you are a true knight of the road.

[Black Hornet]

OK Gosagh, thanks for sharing selective quoting not mentioning the original title that was "Hells Angels" That prededed what you posted. & also thanks for missing my specific mention of Hells Angels doing drug trafficking. That's quite a load of unneccesary abuse isn't it?

Why do you feel compelled to abuse your neighbor?


This below quote is from post 28

At the end of the day, the Vikings accomplishments outclass anything any group pf Bikers ever diid, ( yes I know todays bikers are a rather diverse lot made up of many different sectors of society, but I'm talking about Angels/Mongols etc in the main).

So is this...
The Angels are amongst the biggest drug trafficers in the world, so it cannot be dissasociated from their culture.


That's as specific as one can get. I'm ready for the apologies & if I am to be abused for no good reason, then really I'll have to move on. If the Moderators think this sort of thing is ok, then it's not an ethical forum.

[Kehlan]

oh for... (takes deeep breath and calms down) Black hornet, NO-ONE IS PICKING ON YOU, LEAST OF ALL QOSAGH!!!!!!!

You can';t start a conversation about comparing Klingons with bikers and then complain because different groups of bikers get mentioned in the debate...

You are complaining that people are accusing you of saying all bikers are like hells angels.. then you complain because qosagh quotes you as saying that they are not.  You cant have it both ways.

so your original title was Klingons and Hells angels - a good analogy? you yourself posted that the Angels are drug runners and criminals.  Are they then a good analogy for klingons.  No!  End of.  However, it is not ureasonable to then consider other bikers in the same discussion and ask if there is an analogy there as well.

You are also completely ignoring anything in the discussion which does not suit you. Plenty of reaonable comments and ideas have been put forward but you have ignored them and focussed on the percieved and non existant insults
you think are being aimed at you.

you are on a Klingon forum.  Debating here, by nature is going to be strong and pretty aggressive at times.  thats the Klingon nature.  If you make a weak or fallacious argument it will be attacked, thats nothing personal.  so get over it, sharpen your batleth, step into the arena and fight back.. and have fun doing it.  Thats what we are here for.

[qoSagh]

With less than 30 posts you come on here and demand apologies, due to some perceived great injustice you have suffered, not just from me but from the moderation staff. This is not the Klingon way, or for that matter the human way. I will not say more because to do so would only garner more accusations. Perhaps the Moderators should consider deleting this thread as it upsets you so much.

[Black Hornet]

Goodbye.

[Klythe]

    There are some good posts to the topic once it was expanded to a reasonable scope.  I don't see any reason to delete the whole thread.  I'll can try to split out all the irrelevant back talk, but I'd have to edit some posts which have both valid, relevant and interesting observations, and responses to the less relevant.  I think we want to leave it all, as even the distractions are educational as a "What not to do" and are brief enough that they can be quickly skimmed over to get back to the discussion.