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Author Topic: Theragen  (Read 4291 times)
El Payaso Malo
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« on: 09 24, 2010, 07:45: AM »

In 2268, it was known that Klingons used a form of nerve gas called Qab or "theragen." I was wondering, do you think they would still use this up to the 2370's. To me, it is obvious that their code of honor would seem to forbid it, but allowed in that turbulent time in which their judgment slipped in the 2200's that they don't like to talk about.
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« Reply #1 on: 09 24, 2010, 07:49: PM »

Interesting. I think it would depend on the foe at hand. I can't imagine a Klingon finding it honorable to use a blade to fight a completely unarmed enemy, for it would not be a challenging/equal fight. Fighting with gas doesn't involve any proper 'combat' in that sense at all, but if they were to encounter a species that would use primarily things like long distance weapons and gas to attack them, they might justify fighting back with the same means.

Also, if you think of it.. what would be the difference between being a warrior on a spaceship that fights another spaceship with its onboard weaponry or killing a foe on a distance using another kind of weapon (like gas)? In both cases the warrior isn't involved in hand to hand combat, never faces the opponent and kills a large number on a large distance. Like my first point, I think it matters if the enemy can properly defend itself and form a proper enough threat attackwise to justify its honorability.
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #2 on: 09 24, 2010, 08:21: PM »

That is an interesting point. Remember, Klingons refuse to kill without showing their faces to the ones to be killed, so being visible to the enemy perhaps would justify its use. Although "Arne Darvin" was sent by the Klingon Empire to poison an entire shipment of grain, so the Empire's attitude was way  different when theragen was suggested to be in use.
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« Reply #3 on: 09 27, 2010, 04:11: AM »

Remember, Klingons refuse to kill without showing their faces to the ones to be killed

That might be the case when explaining why there are no sniper-Klingons, but as soon as a warrior enters a spaceship with weaponry he'll know that there is a big chance that the ship will be taking out enemy ships without those enemies ever seeing his face. Question though is, does an onboard engineer on a warriorvessel see himself as directly killing an enemy purely by maintaining the engine of the ship that does so? Or is it enough 'killing by proxy' to not mind that his face hasn't been seen?
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #4 on: 09 27, 2010, 05:29: AM »

It seems to me that the entire crew is collectively the killer, and that the ship itself functions as a "face." That is most likely why that even though they eventually developed technology that allowed them to fire while cloaked, they never used it extensively.
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« Reply #5 on: 09 28, 2010, 06:59: PM »

Hm yes you worded that very well. Would you however agree with me, that any Klingon warrior still would be more satisfied with fighting a hand to hand combat with a worthy foe than through means of being a crewmember of a spaceship? With small ships I can imagine how every crewmember is absolutely necessary and equally valid to the success or failure, thus them probably feeling more as part of the ship. However, with the big ships that carry a lot of groundtroops, I can well imagine that they dream of being part of a landingparty that gets to fight instead of just waiting it out on a ship that is somehow battling other ships in space.
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« Reply #6 on: 09 28, 2010, 07:58: PM »

I'd agree with your statement.

I think every warrior would prefer a one-on-one hand-to-hand battle than any kind of ranged warfare.

I know I do.
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #7 on: 09 28, 2010, 09:35: PM »

I definitely agree. With both of you. After all, many Klingon sayings involve being covered in bodily fluids of enemies, everything from blood to bile; and scars are signs of courage. These are more likely achieved in hand to hand combat.
« Last Edit: 09 29, 2010, 09:58: AM by El Payaso Malo » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: 09 28, 2010, 11:45: PM »

I generally agree that the ship itself can be the face but generally not in a first contact situation. The prohibition for faceless killing has actually only been seen to be applied to assassination. That being said, most of the combat we have seen on screen has involved an encounter via view screen, so there is the possibility that Klingons consider this important even in ship to ship contact. Many novels I have read include Klingons sending down landing parties prior to even considering planetary bombardment. We saw this consistently on TOS, which is the same time period where poison grain was considered an option. I am not sure that the use of nerve gas is in and of itself considered faceless, when it is used as part of an overall campaign that begins with a landing party or a view screen encounter.
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #9 on: 09 29, 2010, 10:16: AM »

"The Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor." "Only the enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle." Neither imply assassinations are the only thing this applies to.
The tuQDoq ("Klingon psychic probe" or "mind sifter") hasn't been used in a while. Perhaps it is seen as dishonorable? Also, Klingon Intelligence as a whole seems dishonorable, considering covert actions, and therefore espionage, are considered bad if not outright dishonorable.
I haven't really looked at the novels very much. I tend to stick to the "canon" (although I have been meaning to get to the IKS Gorkon series).
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« Reply #10 on: 09 29, 2010, 03:42: PM »

I haven't really looked at the novels very much. I tend to stick to the "canon" (although I have been meaning to get to the IKS Gorkon series).

Do it do it do it! I LOVE those books! Well, the first and second (and really the fourth...) are better than the third in my opinion. I thought they were canon though, because they're not just some fanfiction but are an official publication and fit within the timeline etc? Klingon intelligence is a debate in that serie as well, I really think you'd like it.
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qurgh_
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« Reply #11 on: 09 29, 2010, 03:56: PM »

Canon is normally defined as "that which has been shown in the live action TV series's and movies". Everything else is take it or leave it.   Cheesy
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #12 on: 09 29, 2010, 05:32: PM »

I also hold things Okrand says about the Klingon language and culture as canon, but that's just a personal preference and outside the strictest definition of canon.
Wink
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« Reply #13 on: 09 29, 2010, 05:39: PM »

Canon is normally defined as "that which has been shown in the live action TV series's and movies". Everything else is take it or leave it.   Cheesy

So even officially published books who are allowed to use the trademark names and such are not considered canon? I always figured that they were included, just not the fanfiction stuff that people post on their blogs and such. Ah well, still, I love the Gorkon books.
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« Reply #14 on: 09 29, 2010, 06:25: PM »

I also hold things Okrand says about the Klingon language and culture as canon, but that's just a personal preference and outside the strictest definition of canon.
Wink

What Okrand writes is considered "Klingon Language Canon". "Star Trek Canon" and "Klingon Language Canon" are different, but do have overlaps here and there (especially the movies which contain lots of tlhIngan Hol).

So even officially published books who are allowed to use the trademark names and such are not considered canon? I always figured that they were included, just not the fanfiction stuff that people post on their blogs and such. Ah well, still, I love the Gorkon books.

Correct. Roddenberry was the "Canon King". He defined what is and isn't canon. He labeled the live action shows/movies as canon. He specifically excluded the animated Trek and books. Since he is the God of the Trek Universe I always try and make sure my interpretations of Trek are based on his ideals for it.
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El Payaso Malo
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« Reply #15 on: 09 29, 2010, 06:43: PM »

I know that, but I meant for example, Okrand says Klingons tell this joke, but said joke doesn't appear on screen, then it's my own personal "Klingon canon," if that makes sense.
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« Reply #16 on: 09 29, 2010, 08:44: PM »

*HIja', jIyaj Smiley

I'm the same way, but it sucks cause you have to strip all that out when you talk to non-tlhIngan Hol speaking Klingons, as they don't have an experience with that side of the canon. Which is unfortunate in my mind, since Okrand adds so much color to the world. Sad

*Yes, it does.
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qoSagh
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« Reply #17 on: 09 29, 2010, 11:21: PM »

So even officially published books who are allowed to use the trademark names and such are not considered canon?

If this were not the case we would all still be speaking klingonasse.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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