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Poll
Question: What media do you consider when thinking about Klingons?
Clueless:There is other stuff that isn't on TV? - 1 (6.7%)
Canon Absolutist: Only what appear on screen is true, everything onscreen is exactly how it happened. - 0 (0%)
Strict Canon: The stuff we see onscreen is pretty much they way it is, although there are some books that are officially recognized as canon. - 1 (6.7%)
Canon Supremecy:  Canon always overrides everything else, unless it just doesn't fit.   But there's a lot of good stuff in fandom. - 4 (26.7%)
Okrand Canon:  If Okrand says it, it's gospel, even if Paramount bungles it later on.Moderate:  TV, Movies, books, it's all the same. - 1 (6.7%)
Moderate:  Books, TV, Film, The Internet, it's all the same, I just pick out the most interesting and consistant parts Klingon culture, wherever they com from. - 7 (46.7%)
Fandom Supremacy:  If something onscreen contradicts something that was written before it, I just ignore it.  The TV writers should read some more of the books before writing for TV. - 1 (6.7%)
Strict Fandom:  I'll watch something if I hear it's got good Klingon stuff in it, but that stuff isn't the same as a good book. - 0 (0%)
Fandom Absolutist:  Ick, I couldn't stand that stuff on the screen, I stopped watching.  These books and websites are much better written. - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 14

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Author Topic: Strict Canon verses Fandom  (Read 36906 times)
Klythe
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« on: 12 02, 2003, 03:56: AM »

What your Frame of Reference for what is Klingon, affects all aspects of Klingon Culture Studies.   So what sources are true definitions of Klindom, and which just fiction?
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Klythe
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« Reply #1 on: 12 02, 2003, 04:16: AM »

Whenever it makes sense, I use what happens on the screen over what is written in the books.   So I would call myself a Canon Supremesist.   Although, I also passionately support the ideas that come out of fandom that help to fill in where canon is silent, or completely does not fit with everything else.

Below is an argument I orignally posted in tlhIngan Hol vs. Klingonaase as to why canon should not be the end of your Klingon Studies.

----
     If you wish to limit your understanding of Klingons to only that which appears on the screen (which is all pro-Federation propaganda anyway), those are your blinders to wear.   I will continue to evaluate all sources of information and select the best written and most interesting pieces that match the high concept and the flavour of what we see on screen, and disregard the innane, stupid and unworkable, even if it appears on screen.

    I would perfer not to accept that a timid child could hold of two Klingon warriors and the rest of the force behind them, while hidden behind a desk and wildly firing a phaser rifle without even looking what he was shooting at, and yet this appears on screen(DS9- Nor the Battle to the Strong).    I would perfer to think that a packing crate is not stronger than Worf, yet on screen we see this is not true.   If you want to continue to define Klingon culture as a straight parallel to Soviet Russia (ST6), or as a parody of terran machismo, I can not stop you.
---
« Last Edit: 12 02, 2003, 04:29: AM by Klythe » Logged
voraq
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« Reply #2 on: 12 03, 2003, 02:34: PM »

I tend to agree with Klythe.

The developments made to expand the Klingon culture should not be limited to just Canon material.  Especially since some of the work done by creator Gene Roddenberry is not even considered canon, particularly TAS.  And also taking into account that in some movies, ST 5 & 6, Roddenberry considers some aspects to be incorrect.  ---My guess is the idea that Spock and Sybock are brothers; and i still have not figures out what it was in ST 6.---

Regarding books:  I tend to accept most of the ST books that I read, however there are a few that I disagree with.  Such as some parts of the storyline in Kahless (I won't go into it here since there is a seperate section for that).  The epic storyline in Kahless is largly what I consider part of the culture.  I'm not sure if I agree with how Michael Jan Freedman depicts Kahless imparticular but the cultural development was great.  I tend to use the books as an expansion of the cultural, mental, emotional, ect  aspects of Klingons; such as, again from Kahless, there is a little more development of the High Council and the workings of the Klingon government.

 
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qoSagh
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« Reply #3 on: 05 23, 2004, 12:06: PM »

I know I've said it many times before, but Canon would be alot easier to follow if it wasn't so fluid. I'm, not sure how I mannaged to miss this poll and topic for so long, I should really get used to looking at the bottom of the page (lol). Paramount has made it abundantly clear that todays canon are tomorrow's forbidden books. Especially as far a Klingons go, I have a feeling it will not be too long before TOS is no longer canon.

The books contain much great material, but sometimes the editors are asleep at the switch. I think I've talked before about the grey pajamas from TMP, which two different books adress the changes. Ine has Kirk wak up in a hospital to find all his gold unifoprms gone and grey ones in his closet, another has the Enterprise return from the fabled 5 year mission in Gold, Blue & Red to be met by Superior Officers in Grey & White. That of course bring to mind the fact that if they can replicate complete Nazi uniforms for a landing party, why can't they replicate new uniforms the minute they get the new standard over subspace?

While we tend to pay ore attention to Klingon details, the above is probably the best example of the fact that no continuity exists in the books, so trying for book-TV continuity is probably a lost cause. I grew up with TAS, it was probably the first Trek I saw, so it will always hold a place of honor in my memories. Not that there was much of a Klingon presence there, but there was enough. In a role playing game I've been playing for several years, I repeatedly argue that I want a pet Glommer, the GM says they are not canon, so they don't exist.

As for fandom, there is probably the best and most creative material off all out there, but sometimes it gets wierd. Half Klingon Half Jedi Pirate Captains and the like. When I got involved in Fandom, for the most part our reference guide was TFR & FASA, TNG was on but hadn't done much with Klingons. I think that is why fandom & TV woll never mesh well, because fans for so long had as thier sole frame of reference, a collection of what are now forbidden books. Now even though there is much more canon source material, new fans are still influenced by older fans, who were similarly influenced themselves. Some of the best Klingon material I've ever rear has been in fanzines, some of the worst has been there also.

I listed myself as a moderate in the poll, probably the only time I've ever been called that. But as much as fandom is the most creative, Paramount (for better or worse) is the most visible and as such if we all walked around completely contradicting them, think of what it would look like at the next convention you go to. Glorious, pointless but glorious.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #4 on: 05 24, 2004, 05:50: PM »

Indeed it seems qoSagh has hit the nail on the head with this. However I guess  the best way to go would be to argue about the alternatives, as in a paralel universe.

In the end it is difficult to sort out everything. I think Orland and his followers while often clashing with other gives us the oportunity to create something great. Personally i think what the KLI is doing  is an excellent job of trying to create something that in the end will produce a stoic and very usefull way of doing things.


The other thing would be that new things are always happening so a social revolution would not be out of question. What was good today might not be good tomorow, but frankly i am sick of federation propaganda. I think it would be great if we somehow could get a klingon series going, maybe not on tv but   anime or computer generated.  
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qab
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« Reply #5 on: 05 26, 2004, 01:13: PM »

When it comes to the Language of tlhIngan Hol I follow Okrand's Canon, just as I would follow the grammar and vocab of any other language.

When it comes to general Klingon stuff then I normally go to what works the best. I treat Paramount/FASA/LUG/Decipher/Books all with the same weight.

The two are seperate animals with a bit of overlap where Okrand tries to meld the language with the culture, and for the most part he does a pretty good job, better than Paramount has done.

For example, my costume is like Klaa's because I like it, but I have a command cloak that isn't all that canon, followed by uncanon boots and other bits. The KLI's pIqaD isn't Paramount Canon or Okrand Canon, but I still use it.

Canon is a good starting point, but it may not always be the ending point.
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« Reply #6 on: 11 05, 2004, 08:35: AM »

i try to focus as much as possible in the story and not get bogged down in obscure details -  also consensus among klingons within your group is importat- since that often involves long arguments and lots of painsticks Cheesy  
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qoSagh
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« Reply #7 on: 11 05, 2004, 06:29: PM »

If it weren't for arguing about obscure details, can you imagine how boring these forums would be?

I also wear a very non-canon uniform. Full head ridges, black shirt and pants, gold tank top (basically as close to the original series as I could make. Then a cloak that is similar to a command cloak but holds more of an academic or religious office signifigance, that a military one. I also wear a metal honor sash, similar to Worf's.

I also try to weigh the various sources as equal as possible, but as some of those sources become older and older it gets more difficult. Very few people have ever heard of FASA any more which makes it a difficult reference to use.
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qoSagh qlIStIy
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« Reply #8 on: 12 29, 2005, 04:24: AM »

I have chosen to merge the two, making a much stronger and richer Klingon
heritage for myself.
« Last Edit: 01 01, 2006, 12:09: PM by J'Maq » Logged

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