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Poll
Question: Is Klingon society patriarchal (male dominated), matriarchal (female dominated), or a blend of the two?
Patriarchal
Matriarchal
Blend

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Author Topic: Nature of Klingon Society  (Read 29974 times)
weslipuqlod
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« on: 10 04, 2003, 10:41: PM »

posted on 11-30-2002 at 03:54 PM

A few of us have been arguing this point for a while with few comments from others. Now is your chance to provide input.

How do you view the nature of Klingon society? Do you consider it patriarchal (male dominated), matriarchal (female dominated), or a blend of the two?


[Edit -- poll numbers didn't carry over from the last forum software change]
« Last Edit: 03 18, 2008, 12:44: AM by Kesvirit » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: 10 04, 2003, 10:47: PM »

posted on 12-1-2002 at 10:46 PM

I'm going to have to go on Patriarchal on this one. My reasoning is when they mention thier lineage they almost always say "son of" (ex. Worf,Son of Mogh; Gowron, son of M'Rel; Tural, Son of PataQ...oops, I mean Duras).

Also when they mention House names its almost always the male name (House of Mogh, House of Martok). I know the Grilka story is going to be brought, but in that case Gowron granted "special dispensation" to allow her that right.

Also, unless something has changed, females can't sit on the High Council (except Azetbur, but that was for treaty purposes).
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weslipuqlod
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« Reply #2 on: 10 04, 2003, 10:49: PM »

posted on 12-3-2002 at 03:50 AM

Please submit your votes above then post your responses / justifications down here.
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qati
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« Reply #3 on: 10 04, 2003, 10:52: PM »

posted on 1-21-2003 at 02:44 AM

I am new to this as I am just learning more about the Klingon story and about the houses. I would have to guess equal based on Kasara being matriarchal while other houses are patriarchal.
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tmk1000
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« Reply #4 on: 10 04, 2003, 10:55: PM »

posted on 2-6-2003 at 03:53 AM

Patriarchal
I say because a lot of TNG shows are like "Sins of the Father" and how it would dishonor gens of children
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« Reply #5 on: 10 04, 2003, 10:58: PM »

posted on 2-6-2003 at 04:08 AM

I agree with KAllen when referring (by wat i have seen ...which is not much ) to family they say "son of..." or in conversation they refer to their father....*many quotes ive seen refer to honoring the father* By wat ive watched so far i would gather it is patriarchial.
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« Reply #6 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:01: PM »

posted on 2-14-2003 at 09:51 AM

Klingon society is obviously matriarchal. This was demonstrated by Worf's traditional Klingon wedding. Everyone emphasized the fact that Silhela is the head of the house. Silhela alone decides if the prospective daughter-in-law is worthy. The family line is traced through the women (as it should be, because the identity of the father is not sufficently reliable).
The traditional wedding ceremony itself demonstrates the superiority of women.

It may be that the sins of fathers dishonor generations of sons. However, a mother's honor lives on in her daughters.
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« Reply #7 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:03: PM »

posted on 2-17-2003 at 08:10 PM

But remember how Worf said that on the planet he was the elder brother and that Kurn was to do what he said.  And how Alexander had to take the first right of ascension becuse he would lead the family when Worf could not
 
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« Reply #8 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:06: PM »

posted on 2-19-2003 at 09:06 AM

if klingon men lead the families why do klingon women make the decisions?
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« Reply #9 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:08: PM »

posted on 2-20-2003 at 01:12 AM

IDIC in Klingon Society?

I am very much a proponent of acceptance that the Klingon Empire is not a homogeneous culture, being exactly the same everywhere...

One should remember that the Klingon Empire is huge; comprising hundreds of planets, and having absorbed or ruled over many other smaller alien races.

When we consider that the Earth has a multitude of cultures, languages and ethnic communities, all on just one planet, isn't it very reasonable to realize that such diversity is quite commonplace? So it is more than likely that there could be planetary or regional variations in cultural traditions, linguistic tendencies or even patriarchal/matriarchal family lines.

Perhaps patriarchal lines are more common on Qo'noS, but matriarchal lines are the rule on some of the more outlying planets, with a few familes that have "migrated" to the Homeworld and brought matriarchal traditions with them. I don't think that it is that hard to believe that there exist more than one possibility and that all within the Empire are hard and fast rules with absolutely no exceptions.

Cultures change and evolve over decades and centuries, more so when they are in contact with other cultures; as in the case of a dominant war-faring society such as Klingons. It can be fair to assume that the adoption of certain local customs by the "winner" or "overlord" is a possibility; after all, we've seen it happen on our planet...
« Last Edit: 10 04, 2003, 11:10: PM by Ambassador Lady K'Zin » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:17: PM »

posted on 2-20-2003 at 06:25 AM

Quote
tmk1000 posted on 17-2-2003 at 12:10 But remember how Worf said that on the planet he was the elder brother and that Kurn was to do what he said.And how Alexander had to take the first right of ascension becuse he would lead the family when Worf could not
If I am correct in that the one is using this arguement to support "Patriarchal" as his choice, I don't think the example applies -- there were no females, period, in Worf's family. Thus the point of male-vs-female leadership is moot.

Quote
jIl posted on 19-2-2003 at 01:06 if klingon men lead the families why do klingon women make the decisions?
What examples of women making decisions did the one have in mind?
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« Reply #11 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:20: PM »

posted on 2-21-2003 at 01:01 AM

In the one of the overflow threads, zan weslipuqlod argued that the empire was male dominated offering ritual hunting as evidence. That was clearly a case of terran bias. But zan Kesvirit's response about ritual gardening does not conince me.

Mara herself explained to Kirk during the attack of the Emotion Vampiric Entity that the Klingons are hunters, who stalk and take what we need. Clearly the situation is far more complex than the tree choices allow. In some ways, the empire is very paternal particularly in politics and the military, in other ways such as the home, the choosing of a mate, and possibly science the females tend to have more power and control over (but I won't use the term matriarcal as it is not the mother<->child relationship at work). Perhaps we will see more areas of equality in the future.

I have fancied that Science and Technology should be considered "woman's work", as it doesn't generally involve the need for physical strength, agression or seemingly the other attributes that male Humans and Klingons seem to tend to excel at over females. I am ashamed of the Human societies that have so far disappointed me in this regard. So far we haven't see enough of Klingon Society to decide if they have disappointed me... For some reason I do not think it would bother me to be a male who is working in an industry dominated by females. Odd that it bothers me more that it isn't...
« Last Edit: 10 06, 2003, 04:02: PM by Kesvirit » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:30: PM »

posted on 2-21-2003 at 04:06 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Kesvirit If I am correct in that the one is using this arguement to support "Patriarchal" as his choice,
yes i was .  angry  
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« Reply #13 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:42: PM »

posted on 2-21-2003 at 08:10 AM
Quote
Klythe posted on 20-2-2003 at 17:01 In the one of the overflow threads, zan weslipuqlod argued that the empire was male dominated offering ritual hunting as evidence. That was clearly a case of terran bias. But zan Kesvirit's response about ritual gardening does not conince me.
I was not arguing that the Empire is matriarchial in nature, and was not trying to convince anyone of anything but the inadequacy of zan weslipuqlod's arguement and evidence in drawing his conclusions. I realize that debunking one arguement does not prove another, that nothing can be "proved" by inductive reasoning, and that all the evidence is far from being in and accounted for.

Quote
Mara herself explained to Kirk during the attack of the Emotion Vampiric Entity that the Klingons are hunters, who stalk and take what we need. Clearly the situation is far more complex than the tree choices allow.
This is one reason I waited so long to get involved in this thread. It didn't seem like the appropriate venue to argue the specifics of proper survey and research methodologies. :-/ (Furthermore, my prefrence was not among the options avaliable in the poll.)

Perhaps others have realized this as well, and this is why we have seen no breakdowns of tallies as in other threads. No one has cast a vote, but only posted opinions and arguements -- some of which have not addressed the three options given.

Quote
(but I won't use the term matriarcal as it is not the mother<->child relationship at work).
A wise insight. Do you have a more fitting term with which to label the matriarchal/patriarchal dichotomy?

Quote
Perhaps we will see more areas of equality in the future.
Where? Rumor has it that "Nemesis" performed poorly enough to be the end of the movie series, though it is only a rumor and I have yet to find a reliable source to substantiate it. And I for one have neither high hopes nor high expectations for the shipwreck that is "Enterprise".

Quote
I have fancied that Science and Technology should be considered "woman's work", as it doesn't generally involve the need for physical strength, agression or seemingly the other attributes that male Humans and Klingons seem to tend to excel at over females.
The phrase "women's work" has been used derogatorially in both Human and Klingon cultures to devalue and put down both the work and those performing it. Perhaps you are right in that science and technology are seen as "women's work" by the dominant forces who dictate the values of a "warrior's culture". It may explain why scientists and their contributions are never acknowleged, let alone featured, in canon Klingon material, and why those who get the recognition, the glory, and the air time are warriors.

 - Kesvirit
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« Reply #14 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:45: PM »

posted on 3-2-2003 at 10:46 AM

Kesvirit, i mentioned in the earlier post that Silhela alone decides if the prospective daughter-in-law is worthy to join the family. The males involved were so terrified of provoking her that they were too afraid to even put in a good word for Dax, because that would seem like butting into her business.
That is hardly patriarchal behavior.
Also, remember Dax was asked to trace Silhela's lineage through the women. Both names and deeds.
Whereas in our society, women were mostly left out the census.
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« Reply #15 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:48: PM »

posted on 3-2-2003 at 11:21 AM

My thanks for the elaboration. Smiley I have yet to view the records surrounding that particular event.
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« Reply #16 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:53: PM »

posted on 3-2-2003 at 09:37 PM

Patriarchal

Having just returned to the forum, I find the discussion grand. I have been a student of the culture. It is also of interest weither the culture is of Asian of or other similitude. 1st this question of Patriarchal of Matriachal, in my studies I find that either is acceptible but the honor of belonging to any house rests upon, the greatness of the deeds of the one for whom the name is famed.
It isn't Male or female that is honored, that respect comes not just here or there but through out klingondom.reputation built upon the name.
So in the interest of truth it is equal according to the legend, not the gender.

Second the issue I added to this train of thought, culture, many swear the Klingons of Gene R's design is modeled after the Japanese empire, Samuri and so forth. The reality is. though the art of war is close to the fudal Japanese, the crude barbaric clan warfre is distinctly Saxon Scot. Including the use of Castles and citidels.
I am impressed with the assortment of weapons all of which resemble the skill and craftsmenship of the celtic middleages. as do the attention to honor and alliegences to kings and clans, rather than Japanese loyalty to a single Lord or Emperor.
Thanks for the chance to expound.
Qapla
 
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« Reply #17 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:57: PM »

posted on 3-3-2003 at 02:17 AM

i have just seen a DS9 show in were Worf said "It is forbiden for the women to lead the house" so that means that the MALE leads the house  Cheesy  
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« Reply #18 on: 10 04, 2003, 11:59: PM »

posted on 3-3-2003 at 08:31 AM

that is merely a futile attempt to retain some semblence of authority. a true patriarchal soicety doesn't have to "forbid" women from ruling because female rule would be unthinkable.
when men are forced to claim authority - verbalized repetedly mantralike -
it is a sure sign that they would like to believe that they are in charge, but actually have no power.
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« Reply #19 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:07: AM »

posted on 3-3-2003 at 09:05 AM

Quote
Originally posted by tmk1000 i have just seen a DS9 show in were Worf said "It is forbiden for the women to lead the house" so that means that the MALE leads the house Cheesy
Worf said the house. He did not specify which one. Though you have not provided any context or background to the quote I am guessing he means his own. I could almost dredge up a shred of sympathy for him.

And you can wipe that impudent smile off your face, youngling, or I shall tell your mother.
Ah. I see that worked. Would the one like to reconsider his sweeping statement that "the MALE leads the house"?

Quote
quoth dnor Second the issue I added to this train of thought, culture, many swear the Klingons of Gene R's design is modeled after the Japanese empire, Samuri and so forth.
This brings up another variable that was not accounted for in the initial poll: which Klingons of Roddenberry's design? The "Monglol Hordes" of classical Trek or the "Viking Bikers" of the Great Revision? The two have little in common besides a few catch phrases. Combine this with the points mentioned in Lady K'Zin's post earlier in the thread and it becomes even more difficult to draw any definitive conclusions about social practices within the Empire.
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« Reply #20 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:17: AM »

posted on 3-4-2003 at 03:33 AM

no he was talking about Quarks exwife and how she could not lead the house so she maried him so she could ceep contorl of the house
 
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« Reply #21 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:20: AM »

posted on 3-4-2003 at 01:46 PM

Hmm, unfortunatly I can't vote in this poll because none of them are correct.

I belive that the culture has over tones of both matriarchal and patriarchal but it isn't either and it isn't equal.

Some houses have more M than P and vice versa. Klingon society is based on honour, so I think if Worfs mother had been a very famous Klingon with tons of honour he would have said Son of Mrs. Mogh. We hear a lot about his father and the honourable things he did, but we don't hear anything about the mother.

We know Klingon women are just as fierce in battle as Klingon men, so I don't feel that the physical aspect comes into it. Same with intelligence levels both are much closer. h*ll, even mating rituals can be started by either sex.

So, my vote would be honouriarchal!
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« Reply #22 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:26: AM »

posted on 3-4-2003 at 05:53 PM

"Son of Mrs. Mogh"?

Quote
Originally posted by qurgh Klingon society is based on honour, so I think if Worfs mother had been a very famous Klingon with tons of honour he would have said Son of Mrs. Mogh.
That statement contradicts itself and indicates to me that perhaps your "not-vote" leans heavily in the patriarchal direction.

He would have said "Son of Mother's Name", not "Son of Mrs. Father's Name". The title (and I use the term here with both sarcasm and irony) of "Mrs." ultimately refers to a woman's change in legal status from being property of her father to that of her husband.

Joan of Arc and Queen Bodaccea were both successful and charismatic military leaders, yet Joan's only additional identifier a place name. Queen Bodaccea was not known as "Queen Wife of Husband's Name", and many of her followers never even knew that she got her start as the widow of a dead king but knew her only as their leader. (Can anyone remember Mr. Bodaccea's name? I can't. I would have to look it up.)

- Kesvirit
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« Reply #23 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:35: AM »

posted on 3-5-2003 at 04:05 PM

:lol: !!! I used Mrs. Mogh because I didn't know the mothers name. Of course he would have said "Worf, son of "Mothers name"". The Klingons don't use Mr or Mrs, so no Klingon would say Son/Daughter of Mr/Mrs Joe Klingon.

Dude, thats so funny that you seriously thought I ment he would say "Mrs Mogh"! :lol::lol::lol:
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« Reply #24 on: 10 05, 2003, 12:45: AM »

posted on 3-5-2003 at 10:20 PM

My, aren't we pleased with ourselves. The little boy who thinks he is a man has just picked up a sword by the wrong end.

Quote
originally posted by qurgh :lol: !!! I used Mrs. Mogh because I didn't know the mothers name. Of course he would have said "Worf, son of "Mothers name"". The Klingons don't use Mr or Mrs, so no Klingon would say Son/Daughter of Mr/Mrs Joe Klingon.
If this is true, then "seriously", why did you not simply say "Worf, Son of Mother's Name"? You do not need to know what it is to indicate that he indeed had a mother and that she had a name.

If "Of course he would have said "Worf, son of "Mothers name" " (sic), why did you say otherwise? One would almost think you meant what you wrote.

Quote
Dude, thats so funny that you seriously thought I ment he would say "Mrs Mogh"! :lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, "Dude", the humor in your post has completely escaped my attention. Your attitude has not, and is not appreciated. Nor is your assumption of my gender, nor your mode of address. My name is Kesvirit, as indicated beside every one of my posts and at the end of many of them. It is not Dude. Make a note of this for future reference.
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