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Author Topic: Official KIDC/KIF Patch?  (Read 15493 times)
Kaz Son of Maktan
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« on: 09 28, 2007, 04:22: PM »

Getting back into the Forums these last few weeks, and just starting to feel comfortable navigating around the site, a question just popped into my head- is there or should there be an official Klingon Imperial Diplomatic Corps patch or badge made?  I was perusing through the threads concerning club/ship medals as well as virtual and live Klingon numbers of fans and thought (correct me if someone has already mentioned it here)
that since there seems to be a lot of us here spanning several continents, that having a physical badge of membership to wear at conventions and at large can be a way to promote and bolster the numbers of this Forum.


[Edit -- changed thread title]
« Last Edit: 11 04, 2007, 04:35: AM by Kesvirit » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: 10 11, 2007, 05:37: AM »

My apologies for the late answer. Technical difficulties have been keeping me from Forum business, and a two-day repair window stretched out into ten. Those (ir)responsible for this have been given a detailed tour of the agonizer cube.

The short answer to your question: I have no idea.

The longer answer: The KIDC is the group that sponsors the KIF (Klingon Imperial Forums). The Forums are open to any and all who wish to register, but membership in the Forums does not constitute membership in the KIDC. The KIDC has a separate membership application process. This process is undergoing a restructuring, so unfortunately the KIDC is not currently accepting new members. If there is a patch, its use would be restricted to KIDC members.

(Got all that? It used to be one long sentence.)

However, I very much like the idea of a KIF patch. Given the current backlog at the KIDC, it would have to be executed start to finish by Forum members, with Lady K’Zin having the final say over design and distribution. Members could submit designs for commentary by other posters. I do not know what other organizations’ pins/patches look like, and we would want our design to be distinctive. Think Diplomatic Corps and not generic Klingon military.

Of course, such a patch would have to earned by the recipient for making a signifigant contribution to the Forums, probably with a minimum required post count or similar service. Different patches corresponding to rank pins would be overkill (and cost a lot more), but perhaps we could have a small number made with a bit of extra something-or-other for those who have attained Thought Master status.

Presuming we can secure permission to do this, someone would need to take on the responsibility of coordinating everything and doing the work involved. And it would be work, and require a serious commitment to seeing the project through. We would also have to find a way to cover the costs. A quick web search indicates that such patches retail around 10USD apiece. I haven’t looked into bulk prices for custom work; that would be one of the many things that the project coordinator would have to either do or delegate.

This is all hypothetical until I can get clearance from the Embassy. In the meantime, does anyone else have thoughts or suggestions?
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« Reply #2 on: 10 11, 2007, 09:58: PM »

Thanks for the reply. Hoowee! Thought Master, that is a rank to be achieved some time in the future (considering I just only recently achieved Senior Courier.  I'm glad you elaborated on this topic, as I would love to make a design submission.
Hmm. I would second the idea for a patch or badge for the Forum, or rather, attainment of a distinguished level of involvement. Would a cast resin badge be better or be more cost/time effective than a bulk quantity of embroidered patches?
I have experience at sculpting/ rubber mold/ resin casting work and could experiment and take stock of costs when and if necessary. At first thought, I imagine a badge (or patch) like the metal square badge worn on an officer's arm (is that the "born on the Homeworld" badge?) with the initials of KIF  arranged in an artistic way in "metal". That's my two cents for now. I'd love to see/read other's ideas.
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« Reply #3 on: 10 16, 2007, 07:17: AM »

I personally would prefer to go with embroidered patches. Cast resin pins would certainly be cheaper, but they larger they get, the more resolution they loose. It is hard to incorporate much detail without the final cast looking wonky/blotchy/lumpy. Pins stick out from the fabric and tend to get caught on things, whereas patches can be sewn on flat. They also work best with rounded shapes and smooth edges because sharp corners are prone to breaking off. Embroidered fabric patches allow for greater detail and are not prone to breaking or chipping.

Aesthetics aside, cost would definitely be a factor. I am reluctant to ask board members to pay for what is supposed to be an award. The already-stretched KIDC funds can’t pay for them.

As to design, I don’t know anything about the square badge to which you refer. I myself have a vague mental picture of a round fabric patch with “Klingon Imperial Forums” embroidered across the top in a half-circle (following the curve of the arc) with “KIDC” (the sponsoring organization) written in smaller script just below it, straight across beneath the top of the arc. This would leave the majority of the space on the patch available for whatever symbol(s) we may decide to go with. I have no graphics skills but may be able to create a sketch. I don’t know how big said patch would have to be in order to accommodate all this. I may be overreaching.

Abbot Nej vIt had some insignia and awards made for the Klingon Summer Games. I may be away for the rest of the week (but my spies are ever-present and ever-vigilant, so don’t anybody go getting any ideas }}: P ), but will contact him upon my return. He may be able to provide us with some guidance and perspective as One Who Has Gone Before.

We are also in need of a project coordinator, one who has enough time, interest, and discipline to see it through. This of course begs the question as to whether there is enough interest to pursue such a project. It isn’t worth the effort if only two people are interested. In any case, I don’t see this getting far before midwinter as posters will most likely be turning their attentions to House matters between now and then. (However, I am not averse to being pleasantly surprised.)

So we need member input on design, media, funding.... What am I missing? [Ben Stein] Anyone? Anyone? [/Ben]
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« Reply #4 on: 10 31, 2007, 10:32: PM »


     On the other claw the cast resin pins would be easier to produce in small quantities and even customize with rank, custom titles, etc.   Also they can be attached to better effect on a wider variety of materials than a cloth badge, for example a partial metal(or faux metal) baldric/honor sash.
 
     Pin making is something I'd be interested in learning, and I have more interest in things than time to follow through.  So this would not be something I'd be doing quickly.

     My vision is of pin that is 2 inches tall and three inches wide with perhaps two loops at the bottom to allow additional sub metals to be attached...  Maybe this would be more appropriate for something else, but it could be used for our forums. 
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« Reply #5 on: 11 03, 2007, 02:59: AM »

  ....  Pin making is something I'd be interested in learning, and I have more interest in things than time to follow through.  So this would not be something I'd be doing quickly.
.....


Its a reaccuring process....More interests....little time.

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« Reply #6 on: 11 03, 2007, 06:59: PM »

If this moves forward, I will offer my services to help in any way I can. I have designed many patches before and have an interest in healdry and the like. I also know of a place in New Jersey that I have dealt with before that can do very nice detail embroidery for a reasonable price. I have bought two different batches of patches and found them to be very helpful in design assistance and customer service.

As for a design here is an idea if listing the different ranks is really all that important. A single basic patch with a smaller rocker patch either above or below that can be changed as one's rank changes. I have seen these used extensively in my work and think it can work for this type of project.

As for submitting design proposals, how would we do that since there are limitations on posting graphics here? I would think that this would be a very graphics heavy thread.

Also I am not sure the end design would need to say KIDC, although it is fine if it does. Since these forums have taken on a life of their own, they have little to do with the parent club any more. Perhaps a more subtle reference can be worked into some design options.
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« Reply #7 on: 11 04, 2007, 04:55: AM »

Quote
quoth qoSagh:  As for submitting design proposals, how would we do that since there are limitations on posting graphics here? I would think that this would be a very graphics heavy thread.
I’ve reconfigured the boards’ permissions board to allow everyone to post attachments to this thread. Please limit them to .jpg/jpeg or .gif format and 50K in size. So submit away! (If you can’t view and/or post attachments, contact me or Klythe.)

If there is enough serious interest, we have the option of giving the patch/pin discussion its own subforum (probably under Forum Feedback) with individual threads on different aspects of the process -- design, sources, funding, and whatnot.
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« Reply #8 on: 11 05, 2007, 03:34: AM »

Sweet! I, for one, wil get started on drawing my design, which leads me to think of the initials of KIF, or rather, what they should be in tlhingan hol. To be sure, I tried osmosin gthe thread based on the Klingon rank symbols, specifically the Diplomat badge/ patch. Beggin' pardon if the answer is somewhere in the forums (which I couldn't find), but what is the tlhingan hol translation of "Klingon Imperial Forums"?
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« Reply #9 on: 11 05, 2007, 08:47: AM »

Quote
quoth qoSagh:  As for a design here is an idea if listing the different ranks is really all that important. A single basic patch with a smaller rocker patch either above or below that can be changed as one's rank changes. I have seen these used extensively in my work and think it can work for this type of project.

Can you link to or upload an image of a representative rocker patch? I’m not getting far with a search.

Quote
quoth Kaz  Beggin' pardon if the answer is somewhere in the forums (which I couldn't find), but what is the tlhingan hol translation of "Klingon Imperial Forums"?

There isn’t one, and needn’t necessarily be. Remember that few Klinfolk and even fewer aliens recognize pIqaD, let alone understand written thlIngan. KIF transliterated is {qIv}, meaning “knee”...? Surreal. }}8-\

So how, if at all, would one incorporate “Klingon Imperial Forums” twice on one pin/patch, once in Romanized Terranglo and once in thlIngan Hol/pIqaD? That is a lot of characters to fit into a small space.

qoSagh and Kaz, as you both have design ideas, you may wish to collaborate and post the results.

Before anyone commits to a design, we have to decide under what circumstances the patches/pins will be awarded. Shall they be awarded after a certain number of posts have been reached, or shall we issue separate ones for new posting ranks achieved?

If we go the latter route, it would be nice if each new award pin went towards completing a bigger picture. Handily enough there are ten posting ranks, so perhaps each smaller pin (with one awarded every other level) could go toward completing a five-pointed starburst, with the center “filling” piece reserved for Mods and Admins. Or something. (I am rambling, and know that I may be overreaching on this.)

Also, think about funding. The KIDC continuously pressed, so we of the KIF are going to have to find a way to finance this.
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« Reply #10 on: 11 05, 2007, 03:44: PM »

Sweet! I, for one, wil get started on drawing my design, which leads me to think of the initials of KIF, or rather, what they should be in tlhingan hol. To be sure, I tried osmosin gthe thread based on the Klingon rank symbols, specifically the Diplomat badge/ patch. Beggin' pardon if the answer is somewhere in the forums (which I couldn't find), but what is the tlhingan hol translation of "Klingon Imperial Forums"?

FWIW:  There's no official word for "forum", but ja'chuqmeH Daq "discussion place" could work (ja'chuq "to converse, discuss", -meH "in order to", Daq "place, site").  The whole thing would then be tlhIngan wo' ja'chuqmeH Daq, literally "Discussion Place of the Klingon Empire" (wo' "empire"). tlh-w-j-D would be the pIqaD characters.  I'm not saying you should put these on a patch, just telling you what they are...
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« Reply #11 on: 11 05, 2007, 10:43: PM »

I will look for rocker patches on line, if nothing else I can probably scan some actual patches in and post those. I have seen one patch which was for an event that happened every year, the basic patch was a circle, and there were smaller curved patches designed to go around the outside edge that had the years attended on them. I think there was enough room for 10 or 12 years to be placed around the main patch. Something similar might work for the starburst idea if it were a pointed patch with a convex end to fit against a round patch.

The rocker patches I am most familiar with are for a single rank and get replaced as one moves up the ladder but are all curved to match the top of a single patch. If it is important to have more than one add on, there is a style that has a flat bottom and a series of rectangular strips that get added on the bottom.

I am actually looking through the old FASA manuals to see if there is a diplomatic emblem listed there, to be the basic shape. If not the diplomatic medal worn by Gen. Chang seems like a good starting point. Although I think several subtle references to the forums could be worked into the design.

One design note that should be remembered, is that most patch companies limit how many colors they will do for free. Some do 5 for free and some do 7 for free, this is based on the type of machine and how many spools of thread it can hold at once. This does not include a background color but does include the border color.
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« Reply #12 on: 11 27, 2007, 04:01: PM »

I hate replying to myself, but after a bit of research I found the rocker patches I was looking for. There are two types. Both seem to be known by both names, but most commonly the rockers are the curved ones that go on top of a patch with a curved edge and the tabs are the straight ones that go underneath a patch with a straight edge.


* Rockers.jpg (40.42 KB, 476x317 - viewed 281 times.)
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« Reply #13 on: 11 27, 2007, 04:06: PM »

Well this has been interesting, first I find myself replying to myself not once but twice. Then I can't reply because I didn't wait long enough to post again, then the second pic was too big and I had to resize it. All in all not a good day for posting here.


* Tabs.jpg (45.3 KB, 600x199 - viewed 271 times.)
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« Reply #14 on: 11 29, 2007, 03:38: AM »



     No worries.  There is no problem with following up on something no one else has responded to in 20 days...   Or if there was some technical reason, like with the attachments.    Mostly we try to discourage double posting to discourage impatient users from posting a lot of less than thoughtful posts in a thread.


    Hmmm...  So.. I think the "rocker" patches are a good idea.  What do we ant the main patch design to look like?  Actual semi-official klingon pIqaD symbols?   Some abstract klingon style glyphs?   A diplomatic table?  Or perhaps a Spartan style forum...  Or some disembodied heads with ridges on them mouths a flappin'...    Hopefully there will be better ideas than these...
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« Reply #15 on: 11 29, 2007, 09:43: PM »

I do love patches...
A KIF patch would be cool (as soon as I can bring myself to stitch some of my patches to one place...)

I would go for either pIqaD or plain, readable English... Flapping skulls doesn't sound too inspiring 8-)

I am just wondering how to get a hold of one of them once they are for sale/ready for acquisition...
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« Reply #16 on: 11 30, 2007, 03:52: AM »

 
    Well, since it's not exactly possible to animate a cloth patch with technologies I'm aware of the flapping jaws would have to be implied or metaphorical at best...   Hopefully someone with actual good taste and design skills will suggest something.  My taste is notoriously bad.   I dressed up a zebra in plaid (to this day i still think it looks good on her) and still wear white T-shirts even after the Autumnal Equinox...

     Distribution is something else we'll have to figure out depending on how many or few have to be produced in a single run.   Ideally we would have an order on demand and ship directly from the manufacturer to the wearer...   If we do have to make a batch it'll probably be up to Kesvirit and/or myself to distribute them once they are made.  Which if it is a lot of work we'll probably not offer badges to as many people at least probably not all at once..

   
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« Reply #17 on: 12 12, 2007, 04:29: PM »

I have a very rough mock up of my design concept, which I will post here for everyone to see. It is based on the idea of a round patch. The main elements are the all red komerex stella superimposed in the Klingon diplomatic medal, I added the komerex stella only because I discovered the the KLI also uses a form of this medal and I did not want the two logos to be confused. My original idea was the initials [tlh] [w] [j] [D] in the center of the diplomatic medal but that was too similar to the KLI logo. Instead I have the initials in gold over the top of the whole design.  I did use the piqaD published by the KLI, instead of some of the others I have seen simply because for those that do know how to read it, that is likely the one they know how to read. The initials are also more a part of the artwork than they are a label.

Since I work much better with pencil and paper than I do withthe computer, I will be working on a better version of this design. This was the best I could do with nothing more than Paintbrush as a program. So the quality is not what it could be. I know that the Patch company I have dealt with most, has their artists clean up anything you send them anyway, and I have seen examples of them taking a crude sketch and making a very nice patch from it.


* KIDC Rough Design.JPG (31.26 KB, 403x375 - viewed 272 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: 08 14, 2008, 04:07: PM »

So did this project get finished? I would be willing to earn/purchase a KIF patch to put on my sash.
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« Reply #19 on: 08 18, 2008, 01:27: AM »

Unfortunately the patch never materialized. These boards have not been successful at collaborative efforts.  }}: /    People get distracted, bored, “too busy” (haven’t we all), wander off....  qoSagh had taken the lead, going so far as to come up with a design for the rest of us to pick apart, }}; )  but has since largely retired from the boards.

I would love to see the the patch project resurrected, but someone else would have to step up to coordinate the project. I simply have too many administrative duties just keeping the boards running to take on such a project, and do not wish to disappoint other board members by fumbling the shot.

-=- Kesvirit
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« Reply #20 on: 08 19, 2008, 12:02: PM »

I have not retired from anything. I just haven't had much to post about lately I actually lurk without loggin in at least every other day. That and I have been cursed with living in "Interesting Times" lately. As for the patch, I made an effort not to dominate the thread and had actually hoped that there would be another design or two posted to choose from. As much as Klingons are not all that democratic, the forums are a bit more so. I guess this design is the presumptive candidate at this point.
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« Reply #21 on: 08 19, 2008, 04:21: PM »

Thinking about the patch. I happen to like the design put forward so far, what sort of level of paticipation would earn it or would it be a situation where we bought it, As i would be happy with either.
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« Reply #22 on: 08 24, 2008, 10:41: PM »

qoSagh, do you have any reasonable copy of the design yet, besides the MS Paint version?
Even though I do not live in the US, I would like to investigate the price to get it made over here...
I am not at all good with anything graphical (or so I keep telling myself), so I don't feel I should torture you with any attempt I would otherwise make...
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« Reply #23 on: 08 26, 2008, 12:21: PM »

That is all I have right now, the hardest part to hand draw is the diplomatic logo. I would assume that it might be cheaper to get it made in one place and ship to whereever it is needed, as there will be artwork set up charges for the first production run. I am actually working with a friend who does embroidery to get the design digitized so that It can just be given to the patch company with no additional set up.

What about Kaz, it would be nice to see what other design is out there.
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« Reply #24 on: 08 26, 2008, 10:11: PM »

I'll patiently wait...
It's just that I don't know how it would work for those who aren't in the US... But we'll slay that beast when we smelled it.
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