tlhIngan Hol or Klingonaase or more

[qurgh]

posted on 13-5-2003 at 11:03

 tlhIngan Hol or Klingonaase or more... Poll!

Which would you rather use tlhIngan Hol, Klingonaase, both at once or neither of them? Defend your answers like true warriors!

 

[tmk1000]

i am just learning klingon but i do not know all of it so i would like it to be Klingonaase

[ngabwI]

tlhIngan Hol

{ngeDlaw' De' law' naw'lu'meH Qu' 'ej 'Itlhlaw' pabDaj}

It seems to have more information readily available, and the grammar seems better developed.

[voraq]

I prefer tlhIngan Hol  over Klingonaase for the fact that it is not as developed as tlhIngan Hol.  I actually just got the book The Final Reflection and have not started it yet.  Until I saw this poll I was under the impression that the Klingonaase reffered to by Korax in Trouble with Tribbles was reffering to (within the consistancy of the trek universe of course)  the language later seen on TMP.  Before I voted in the poll i did a brief study of Klingonasse and I think it is a good "language" but it isn't as developed as tlhIngan Hol.  

My exposure to tlhIngan Hol is overwhelmingly greater than my exposure to Klingonaase so I supose I have a bit of a bias toward the language tought by Master Okrand.

Qapla'

voraq

[Klythe]

If Klingonaase was a complete language it would be much more powerful and interesting that tlhIngan Hol.  It is build on a stronger paradigm "The tool for manipulating the embodyment of Klin " rather than "The Klingon Language".   How uncreative can you get?  Does someone from England speak the England Language?  No!  We don't say that, we speak English.  In fact I speak "American English" and not tlhIngan Hol ta' The "Klingon Language of the Empire".   Borring!    Maltz and Okrand have come up with a few interesting things, like names for individual digits and such, but the dictionary is chock full of boring useless one to one word matches which make the vast majority of the 'completeness' of tlhIngan Hol a complicted but none the less a cypher code encryption for English.

     This is why I voted for Klingonaase, because in the Star Trek Universe it would be every bit as complete as tlhIngan Hol.  But when a word is needed, it is a unique concept that takes a bit more explaining than a one or two word English equivant.

[ngabwI]

jatlh Klythe:
Does someone from England speak the England Language?

jang ngabwI':
They do in Japanese- "eigo". Incidentally, Japanese also speak "Japan language"- "nihongo"

jatlh Klythe:
In fact I speak "American English" and not tlhIngan Hol ta' The "Klingon Language of the Empire".

jang ngabwI':
At the risk of seeming pendantic, {tlhIngan Hol ta'} means "Emperor of the Klingon Language". You might be looking for {ta' Hol} or {tlhIngan ta' Hol}, "Emperor's Language" or "Klingon Emperor's Language".
"Klingon Language of the Empire" is {wo' tlhIngan Hol}.

jatlh Klythe:
 the dictionary is chock full of boring useless one to one word matches which make the vast majority of the 'completeness' of tlhIngan Hol a complicted but none the less a cypher code encryption for English.

jang ngabwI':
One thing at a time, here.

Regarding {tlhIngan Hol} being complete:
I have never heard from a reliable source that {tlhIngan Hol} is complete. Languages are NEVER complete, be it English, Esperanto or Latin. As I am sure you are aware, there are always new words coming into being: One hundred years ago, what did people call a computer? Thirty years ago, a fax was a "facsimile". Did Latin, as spoken by the Romans, have a word for "telephone"? But now these languages have these words. If these languages were considered "complete", the words would never have been added to the lexicon by the speakers of those languages.

Regarding your assertion that {tlhIngan Hol} is a complicated cipher of English:
If this were true, it would heavily favor native speakers of English, to the point of excluding other languages. The current Beginner's Grammarian of the KLI list is German, and there's a woman in Czechoslovakia that is translating the Tao Te Ching into {tlhIngan Hol}.

A cipher of English would also include articles (a, an, the) and true tense (past, present, future), both of which are noticeably lacking in {tlhIngan Hol}.

Also, one would expect a one-to-one association with English words from a cipher. This is simply not the case.
For instance, the English word "then" has several meanings:

then, at that time
"I used to live in Kansas. We had a big house then."

then, so, thus
"You want that CD? Then go buy it!"

then, subsequently
"Put the flour in the bowl, then the eggs."

"Then" can also be used to indicate that the speaker is about to present information that contradicts a point just made:
"It seems unhealthy, but, then, I'm not a doctor."

In {tlhIngan Hol}, these concepts are conveyed not by one word, as in the English, but by three:
{ngugh} ("at that time"), {vaj}, ("so, thus"), and {ghIq} ("subsequently").

{*Kansas* vIDabta'. ngugh tIn juHmaj}
"I have lived in Kansas. At that time (then), our house was large."

{*CD*vetlh DaneH'a'? vaj yIje'!}
"Do you want that CD? So (then) buy it!"

{maHpInDaq *flour* ylan, ghIq QImmey tIchel}
"Place the flour in the large bowl (for serving), subsequently (then) add the eggs."

There is no easy, formulaic way to express the fourth sense of "then".

Note that in the examples above, the English had to be recast to fit in the vocabulary and grammar of the target language ({tlhIngan Hol}). This would render it useless as a cipher.

There's also "to land", meaning "to cease flying". In English, a bird can land on land, on the water, or in a tree. In {tlhIngan Hol}, however, a bird can {Saq} on land, but it must {ngun} in a tree, or {tlhot} on water.

{tlhIngan Hol} is not always more specific. Sometimes, it is less so. One would expect a cipher to be consistent in this regard.
In English, one can drink a variety of alcoholic beverages. One can drink beer, wine, or liquor. If one drinks beer, it is either a lager or an ale. Liquor can be a brandy, whisky, or vodka, and whiskey drinkers can partake of scotch, or bourbon.

In {tlhIngan Hol}, the only alcoholic beverage one can drink is {HIq}, with other nouns or verb phrases to modify it:

{'Iw HIq} "Bloodwine"
{romuluS HIq} "Romulan Ale"
{pubtaHbogh ghargh HIq} "Boiling worm wine"

Notice that in {pubtaHbogh ghargh HIq}, while the English is a little ambiguous, the {tlhIngan Hol} makes it perfectly clear that it is the worm that's boiling, not the wine.

Finally, despite the limited vocabulary, there are some ideas that are easy to convey in {tlhIngan Hol}, but whose English translation falls short. One example is {mevbe'lI'}. The English translation is something like "It is continuously not stopping, with a definite ending", or "almost never ending", or "eventually ending", but none of these actually convey the exact same concept as the {tlhIngan Hol} version. This is decidedly un-cipher-like behavior.

More examples are available upon request.

Your argument that the simple glosses found "in the dictionary" (here I am assuming you mean TKD) reveal {tlhIngan Hol} as a cipher doesn't hold either. The same can be said of most, if not all, languages. My Japanese-English dictionaries all give definitions like "to be" for "desu", "telephone" for "denwa", and "bitter" for "shibui". The same types of definitions are found in my German, French, and Cherokee dictionaries, as well. This does not indicate that one of these is a cipher for the other, or even that they're related at all.

Your preference is your preference. I have no desire to change that. But unless you believe all languages fall into the "complicated cipher of English" category, your assertion doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

This is not intended as a "calling out". You've a reputation on this board for being intelligent, and if your posts to the previous incarnation of this board are any indication, you are a level-headed and able debater. I simply see an opportunity to cross swords with one like you, and I look forward to your response.

Just please don't hit me.

HovpoH 700675.5

[Klythe]

jang ngabwI': At the risk of seeming pendantic...  You might be looking for {ta' Hol} or {tlhIngan ta' Hol},

     You are right, I was careless.   Now you will be watching me for further weakness.     tlhIngan ta' Hol was my intention.
 When you are being a pedant(male schoolteacher), why are you afraid to sound pendantic?   Okay, you probably didn't mean it in that sense, I just wanted to play on the words a bit.   As for what I thought ou really meant...   You cannot be required to be more imaginative That and agree with your next point about how no living language wil ever be complete, as meanings shift over time.

jang ngabwI':
One thing at a time, here.

I have never heard from a reliable source that {tlhIngan Hol} is complete. Languages are NEVER complete, be it English, Esperanto or Latin.

      And you didn't hear it from me either.  Completeness is a spectrum, just like perfection, in the Preamble to the American Constitution "in order to from a more prefect union".   Governments cannot be perfect any more than living languages can be complete.  But a union can be more perfect, and one language can be more complete (especially when we are talking about artificial languages).

   Some would say Latin and Esperanto are complete as there are no native speakers around to change the official usage.   But, I would not say they are dead for that reason.   Latin secondary-language speakers can influence usage amongst other secondary users...   My turn to be pedantic--Latin though still doesn't have a word for telephone, except as a foreign reborrowing from English, the same as the word 'kareoke' came from English 'orchestra' to nihongo 'oke' to 'kareoke' and back to English.

    Esperanto (and tlhIngan Hol as it exists in the Real World) are planned/constructed/artifical languages.   They only change when someone decides to publish a new world list, or issues an addendum to the official grammar.   These are not living languages, and thus they are 'complete' (no more work will be done on them) the instant active development in the forseeable future stops.

Regarding your assertion that {tlhIngan Hol} is a complicated cipher of English:

     I did not assert that.  I asserted that :

the vast majority of the 'completeness' of tlhIngan Hol a complicted but none the less a cypher code encryption for English.

     Some of the 'completeness' is well thought out, creative, alien(sometimes just for the sake of being alien, but just as often properly demonstrating Klingon Culture).   But what fills the dictionary is not  your example of the various uses of the overworked word 'then',  but words like ghaj 'have', maj'is good' and -Hom 'diminutive' without any idea of the usage rules we learn when we acquire a language, leaving learners to assume that you can have a meal that you eat immediately without really adding it to your possessions, or what properies are considered good, or what things can and can't take -Hom and what does it mean if it can be applied.

(Actually, -Hom is a bad example for my point, I'm just working off the top of my head here...   When I get a chance I'll flip though TKD and pick a random word... )

If this were true, it would heavily favor native speakers of English, to the point of excluding other languages. The current Beginner's Grammarian of the KLI list is German, and there's a woman in Czechoslovakia that is translating the Tao Te Ching into {tlhIngan Hol}.

     Non sequiter.   A bias to one language does not make it unlearnable to people who do not speak the language.   It only makes it more difficult.   Actually, English bias is not stored in the language specifications, only the cultural nullity of the one-to-one translations...  Means that when TKD is translated into German, the speaker thinks they know Klingon, but they have no better idea what ghaj means than an American, a Check, a Slovok or a Chinese person.    Each will use it exactly as they would the word printed on the other side of the page from ghaj and none can be truely sure they understand how to use the word the way a Klingon would.

In {tlhIngan Hol}, the only alcoholic beverage one can drink is {HIq}, with other nouns or verb phrases to modify it:

Not true,   warnagh, ra'taj and [chutlh...] are alcoholic and although they are HIq they do not contain the term.

Finally, despite the limited vocabulary, there are some ideas that are easy to convey in {tlhIngan Hol}, but whose English translation falls short.   This is decidedly un-cipher-like behavior.

      I do not disagree.   There is an excellent about of detail about a small but ever increasing part of the language.  I do not want warriors to judge one language as superior simply because of the volume of material, when a large portion of the material might as well be randomly computer generated (and as far as we know, it may be) one for one equivalences.  

The  criteria to judge the quality of the language should be how it can be used by the speakers, and since neither language has *fluent* speakers, or even *can* have fluent speakers, how well the language describes the Klingon Empire.   I think Klingonaase was better at defining Klingons as a viable interesting alien culture than tlhIngan Hol, but Hol is closing the gap.  

    Hol is by far more alien, as many aspects are created just to be generally alien rather than specifically Klingon.   Let's look at your examples, and see what they tell us about Klingons.
     
(EDIT-- Not completed)

More examples are available upon request.

Unfortunately, I can't express the multitude of counter-examples without reprinting the dictionary.   But if you wish I will flip through and build a quick list of words that are ambiguous or rely on culturally specific information to derive proper usage, which has not been provided.

[Qunchuy]

The  criteria to judge the quality of the language should be how it can be used by the speakers, and since neither language has *fluent* speakers, or even *can* have fluent speakers, how well the language describes the Klingon Empire.

tlhIngan Hol vIjatlhchu' jIH

I am fluent in Klingon.

If you measure the quality of a language by how well it can be used, Marc Okrand's tlhIngan Hol wins hands down over John Ford's Klingonaase. Ford never documented Klingonaase well enough for it to be used for anything beyond the few phrases he wrote down. Okrand presented a complete grammar for tlhIngan Hol which permits people to put together novel sentences and be understood.

(If you require that the language describes the Klingon Empire, you can't count Klingonaase anyway, because the Empire it describes is not the Empire that has been shown and described on screen.)

[Klythe]

majQa' ghol qaghom

    Very good!  I have an opponent.  

We learn by battle.  I know I have much to learn.  I hope you also know that there is much more to learn.   I encourage both of you Word Warriors to continue to fight me as long as I prove a worthy opponent.   I hope you feel the same way to me.

tlhIngan Hol vIjatlhchu' jIH

I am fluent in Klingon.

    A bold claim.   A claim Marc Okrand does not make.  Fortunately, or not, it is a claim that only you can disprove.   Being fluent in tlhIngan Hol, you of course know both the denotative as wel as the connotative meanings of the words you chose.   Of this is true, you will undoubtably have much wisdom to share with us.  I will look for your wisdom  in other threads.  

If you measure the quality of a language by how well it can be used, Marc Okrand's tlhIngan Hol wins hands down over John Ford's Klingonaase. Ford never documented Klingonaase well enough for it to be used for anything beyond the few phrases he wrote down.

     And most of them have a full story behind them, that explain more about his vision of Klingon culture than a thousand word for word definitions.   Maltz has only in just begun discussing words to this level, and many of his topics have been largely tangential, but a few have been revealing.   May this continue.

Okrand presented a complete grammar for tlhIngan Hol which permits people to put together novel sentences and be understood.

      You will forgive me.    The last language expert i talked to told me that I could *not* put novel sentances together, because the metaphors in use are as perscribed and just as written in stone as the official "slang".    It pleases me that you believe otherwise.

(If you require that the language describes the Klingon Empire, you can't count Klingonaase anyway, because the Empire it describes is not the Empire that has been shown and described on screen.)

     And this is not also true for thIngan Hol?  The scriptwriters are not linguists and they are not fluent.  The actors may have as much as few hours to learn the pronunciation.   And when has anything Maltz said since his transfer to Okrand been reflected in the show?    

      thIngan Hol is the official language of the screen.   Everything Okrand writes is canon to the language, but it is not canon on the show.   Paramount officially states that Maltz is not the origination of knowledge about the Klingon Language as Okrandian canon holds.   Screen canon proves it can not be true, as it was understood by the terrans in 2152 and the Vulcans even before this.

[voraq]

Of this is true, you will undoubtably have much wisdom to share with us.

Just one question.  How can someone who cannot master Terran grammer be able to argue about tlhIngan Hol  being a cypher for English?

Screen canon proves it can not be true, as it was understood by the terrans in 2152 and the Vulcans even before this.

The terrans in 2152 did not understand the Klingons.  They used the universal translator from the Enterprise's communications computer.  Before the computer figured out how to translate tlhIngan Hol, T'Pol translated.  Of course the Vulcans would have known the language before terrans.  They've been traveling the stars longer than terrans.  This doesn't mean that they tought the language to terrans.   The terrans use their universal translators when they have contact, after several years they deside that it would be benificial to learn the language, and possibly have a better understanding of the culture because of it.  Given the popularity of Vulcans on Earth(being popular for witholding information and technology), and the Terran personality trait of having to figure things out without help.  Add to that the fact that the Vulcans would have to teach tlhIngan Hol to Terrans in the Terran language (which is a second language for the Vulcans), can you really blame them for taking Terran linguistic specialists and having them learn the language?

[Klythe]

Just one question. How can someone who cannot master Terran grammer be able to argue about tlhIngan Hol being a cypher for English?

      I hope you never make a typographical error, so I never feel obligated to remind you of how silly you are being. 'Of' should be 'If', if your mind is so weak it needs crutches in the form of an explanation.

The terrans in 2152 did not understand the Klingons. They used the universal translator from the Enterprise's communications computer.

     Hoshi has been known to speak it without the UT and she is understood.   We have no reason to believe she does not continue her studies and becomes fluent.    Even if she doesn't, and no other human does before the Genesis Project, the fact remains that Maltz's is contributing is not canonically supported, and is officially renounced.   Okrand is the final say for Klingon words and grammar, but Paramount controls the culture, history and all other details that make a language something usuable rather than a list of words and rules.   Although authorized to say what he wants about Klingons, none of it is canonical unless and until used on screen(when was the last time that happened, has it happened?  ever?).   Paramount can contradict Okrand at any time, and they have many times, in so doing requiring much gymnastics on Okrand's part to scramble to keep his language correct with what appears on the screen.  In short tlhIngan Hol tells us nothing about what we see on screen.  What we see on screen tells us about tlhIngan Hol.

[edit- off topic text removed]

     Anyway I see I'm getting way off topic, we are no longer discussing language, we are discussing our personal opinions of adherence to canon...   This will be a reoccuring theme I'm sure, so I will start a new thread.   Here is a link to the   discussion on the importance being canon or not

[voraq]

I hope you never make a typographical error, so I never feel obligated to remind you of how silly you are being. Of sould be If, if your mind is so weak it needs crutches.

I supose your right.  That remark was extremely juvenile of me.  I will hold back from making any such comments in the future.

Hoshi has been known to speak it without the UT and she is understood. We have no reason to believe she does not continue her studies and becomes fluent.

I missed a few episodes of ENT but it does make sense that one of Earths top linguists would be able to learn the language without the help of a UT.  That doesn't, however, mean that the learning of tlhIngan Hol was made main stream.  It could have conceivably been exclusivly taught to the communications officers until the aspect of peace was closely out of reach.  

I do agree with your statement that Paramount can and has overridden cultural aspects given by Okrand.  I was simply laying down one of many possible views for the inconsistancy regarding Maltz and tlhIngan Hol in the Federation.

[Klythe]

That doesn't, however, mean that the learning of tlhIngan Hol was made main stream. It could have conceivably been exclusivly taught to the communications officers until the aspect of peace was closely out of reach.

     It was becomming mainstream during the Sherman's Planet crisis.   Korax reported that half of the quadrant was learning "Klingonese"< whatever language that is...  It still shows suficient Terran knowledge of Klingon Language long before Kirk's treachery of not killing Maltz as he said he would.  

     Unless of course, you wish to contend that the prevailing language at the time of TOS was not tlhIngan Hol.  I would not disagree with you, if you did!  }}:^D

[voraq]

Unless of course, you wish to contend that the prevailing language at the time of TOS was not tlhIngan Hol.

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread, I believe that what Korax called "Klingonese" is the same language that became known as tlhIngan Hol.

As for his statement, Korax never actually said that Terrans were learing "Klingonese".  What he said was  "......Half the Quadrant knows it, thats why they're learning Klingonese!"  Now there is only 3 people who know what he meant by that and they are Korax himself, the Great Bird of the Galaxy, and the writer.


I suggest that considering they were at the border of Klingon space, which is in the Beta Quadrant, he was refering to half of the known species in the Beta Quadrant.  Or perhaps he was refering to half the known species in both Quadrants since there was not an overly large number of known races.

Further more, I suggest that during the time of TOS learning and speaking tlhIngan Hol  as a Terran was frowned upon.  Like mainstream learning of Rusian as an American during the hight of the Cold War.  There were probably some who worked with Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31 who knew tlhIngan Hol as part of their job, but anyone fluent as a normal civilian would be looked at as a Klingon supporter.   During the time of ST3 the Federation was attempting a peace treaty with the Klingon Empire (according to Kruge) and the idea was that with a captured Klingon prisoner, whom the Empire probably denied because he allowed himself to get captured, there was an opporotunity to have civilian linguists study and learn the language in order to publish the findings and make it available to the general public so that when the peace treaty was signed there could be tourism, exchange programs, or whatever.



So, no Maltz was probably not the first to teach tlhIngan Hol to a Terran but he was the one responsible for teaching it to the majority of Terrans.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

All I want to say to this is that although tlhIngan Hol has a bigger usability-factor, choosing between tlhIngan Hol and Klingonaase is similar to choosing between any of the later Star Trek incarnations and The Original Series.

Without Klingonaase there would not be such an interest in the language aspect of Klingons, imho.

I would vote for Klingonaase for the simple reason that I choose to always cheer for the underdog.

--
SoplaHtaHwI'

[kmtal]

i like the phrase tlhIngan Hol. it just sounds better and its what the Klingons call it when they speak the language

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I can scarce believe that i missed this topic for so long...

I have never claimed to be a fluent or studied linguist, (Of any language including my native English, or American-ized pigeon English if you prefer)... Anyway, I voted "Both", and here is why...

Klingonaase:

I like Klingonaase. It is first and formost a creative branching out from a few simple terms coined in TOS {The Original Series}, into an interesting, if abbreviated lexicon of TOS, Fordian {The Final Reflection, etc...}, and FASA RPG reference work.

It is very "Fan-friendly", in that it is frequently used in bits and pieces along with other languages, and as such the meanings are clear to those who have heard them before without having to study and learn a "New" language.

It is unfortunate however, that with the much more evolved (or at least developed), tlhIngan Hol, (Not to mention the demise of the FASA licence, the recent death of John M. Ford and so on), the need to develop more Klingonasse in a Quasi-canon sense is unlikely.

This almost puts Klingonaase into a dead, or at least stagnant class of languages.

tlhIngan Hol:

tlhIngan Hol, I like for different reasons. First of all, though currently little development of the language as a functioning growing thing, has slowed, its creator still lives, there is still a good sized community of both accomplished and casual scholars, and the Canon status of the language at least leaves room for further development.

Also, with so many sources of tlhIngan Hol, there is already a broad range of materials available to support the would be studant. So even with the lack of new Trek out there, there is still enough information to give all but the most dedicated a lot of room to grow. (In terms of their command, of and understanding of the language).

Additionally, resources like the TKD, KGT, and TKW, offer many options for the less devout to memorize a few choice lines or phrases for use in RP or other performance related endeavors.

It also occurs to me, that for those who wish to "Compose" original works such as Plays, Songs and Poems in Klingon, that tlhIngan Hol is better suited because there is an extensive lexicon of words, and a set of rules for using them properly.

But it is not a friendly language. It is difficult, and I have heard quite a few true studants of the language admit that it is confusing and cumbersome at times.

Klingonaase AND tlhIngan Hol:

Personally, I use a little of each. I am not a true studant of either one of them, and I have never "Conversed" at length in either one of them. Also, I have met very few people, (in person), who know more of either one than I do. That is not my bragging about my own command of either one, it is actually an acknowledgement of how little most, even die-hard fans seem to know of the proper usage or pronunciation of either language.

I have found overall, that something of an English-heavy combination or "Pigeon-Hol" (Defined here as English with smatterings of Klingonaase, and tlhIngan Hol), seems to be the norm at cons. Which is where I get the most use out of this stuff.

So these are my (Somewhat), brief reasons for selecting "Both" in the above poll.

maj! {Good}...

[Qunchuy]

tlhIngan Hol, I like for different reasons...
But it is not a friendly language. It is difficult, and I have heard quite a few true studants of the language admit that it is confusing and cumbersome at times.

It's not difficult. It's easy. Compared to typical natural languages, it's child's play.

It's not cumbersome. It's simple. The grammar is minimal and extremely regular.

It is not unfriendly. It is merely different. In my experience, confusion typically stems from the student not recognizing the need to treat tlhIngan Hol as a language, rather than as something to restate English phrases in.

[qoSagh]

I too have mostly met those who speak in English, with bits of both languages used to make specific points. There are often concepts which are best related in one or another, and as we learn these words, phrases and concepts we quickly come to realize that they sometimes do not translate well.

As for speaking English, while the truth is that as English speakers (at least in my case) we all tend to role play in English, there is also the fact that FASA said Klingon commanders sometimes spoke in earther language as a sign of status, as the lower ranking warriors probably would not know the enemy's tongue. I would probably also explain the frequent insertion of words from both Klingon languages, as a Klingon would not be a native speaker and might not know the earther words for what he was trying to say. I find this to be a good explanation for what Brother Abbott calls Pigeon Hol.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Qunchuy,

I recognize that you have a better command of tlhIngan Hol then do I, so I will accept your comment as your take on it. My interpretation of the original question was to argue our own perspectives on why we might personally choose one language over another. So my comments are rooted firmly in my own experiences, which is that it is not a "Friendly" language to learn, and certainly not childs play... Except perhaps for Klingon children of course...

But I digress... I agree that direct translations are problematic, if that is all that one is trying to do with tlhIngan Hol.

qoSagh,

It seems I remember this explanation from the forward of TKD, rather than from FASA? (About federation standard being used as a status language), could it have appeared in both? Regardless, it is an interesting arguement... What always confused me however was how selective the Universal translator seemed to be... (in both TOS as well as other versions of Trek)...