Origins of and variations on the komerex stela?

[Kesvirit]

Origins of the komerex stela?

Much of the Klingon Compass Directions thread assumes that the answer to qoSagh's question of "...could the Imperial Trefoil be a form of ancient compas?" is yes. Given the constant fighting over land and resources of the pre-spaceflight Homeworld and the Wars of Internal Dissention that came later, I would think that defeated peoples would have the flag or sigil of their conquerers imposed upon them. It seems likely that the trefoil was one of these early sigils, perhaps one belonging to a powerful clan. As regional factions grew through conquering and assimilation the trefoil came to "represent" more and more people until it became the komerex stela, the symbol for the entire Empire, whose original symbolic meaning has been lost to the vaguaries of time.

In the Klingon Gods thread, Klythe asserts that "Sun gods are a little too primative to stand the test of time". We will never know this, for many of them that predate southwest Asian monotheistic religions and their descendants are still being worshipped. (Besides, we only have Earth-based religions to work from.) Archeological evidence suggests that sun-worship has been around since the Pleistocene. Examples can be found throughout Earth history and geography. (See here for a sampling and here for a more comprehensive listing with links.)

Could it be that the komerex stela originated as a stylized symbol for some early sun deity, with the circle representing the sun and the three curved phlanges its rays? I could easily see an early tribe, clan, or nation adapting one of their more powerful deities as either a protective force or a representation of their own strength and taking it with them as they overtook their neighbors and consolidated territories.

I may be unduly influenced by the similarity of the the word stela to stella, the latin word for star, as was the originator of the phrase Mortas te Kaase, "Hand of Death" in the  "Klingonaase" thread (mortis or mort being Latin for "(of) death")

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

I am not certain that the komerex stella being a compas and being the sigil of (a) god are mutually exclusive. From what has been discussed in the other referenced threads I think that it may be aboriginal art that represents both concepts.

If we assume that the Larger point on the top is not pointing North (as it would be on earth) but east, it would not be all that illogical to assume that thecompas is pointing to where the sun god lives (or at least wakes up). This could be a symbol of the god that also became the early compas.

Once East was entrenched as the primary direction, no matter what happened to sun worship on the homeworld, the compas would likely not change. So the symbol would likely remain somewhat static as well.

One argument against the sun rays being the points, would be the different colors on the original komerex stella. I would think that they may have been different colors to delineate the directions in either a pre- pIqad  or a largely illiterate society. Why the later versions are a single color is anybody's guess, but I think possibly to be symbolic of the unity the homeworld came under.

One argument in favor of the sun ray theory is of course the Yellow circle at the center, from which the points/rays originate. Even in later versions this is sometimes orange with red points. So this may be an image of the sun.

Of the variations on the komerex stella I have seen, there are two that I think may lend to the compas theory, although both are purely fan creations they predate this thread so they can become research materials. The first is the komerex Karizan, the symbol of the Karizan Empire, which was the first Klingon club I joined. Thiers was all red, but the lower two points were very angular not curved, making the points look more like an arrow head (or compas needle) than anything else. Also both bottom points pointed down, not one up and one down. I suppose this feature more than anything leads to the image of it pointing somewhere. The second is of my own creation, as seen in the symbol of my house, house qlIStIy, which is a combination of the traditional and the Karizan. It is all red, with both lower points pointing down, but curved like the traditional image and not angular like the Karizan image. Also in place of the central circle is a hollow ring, still in traditional yello.

To combine the two theories, perhaps the compas point is superimposed on the sun, as a way of saying "this way to god". Thus making the komerex stella both the sign of an early sun god and an early compas.

As an aside, has it ever been stated which direction Kahless walke in when he left the throne? Could he perhaps have been heading towards the early sun god?

[Kesvirit]

I am not certain that the komerex stella being a compas and being the sigil of (a) god are mutually exclusive. From what has been discussed in the other referenced threads I think that it may be aboriginal art that represents both concepts...

Kai the thought warrior! An excellent synthesis.

Zan qosagh describes three variations on the komerex stela:

... Yellow circle at the center, from which the points/rays originate. Even in later versions this is sometimes orange with red points. So this may be an image of the sun.

...all red, but the lower two points were very angular not curved, making the points look more like an arrow head (or compas needle) than anything else. Also both bottom points pointed down, not one up and one down.

...all red, with both lower points pointing down, but curved like the traditional image ... Also in place of the central circle is a hollow ring, still in traditional yello.

I would very much like to see images of these for comparison if you have them or can link to them.

The earliest version I encountered was in TAS: Superimposed on a yellow circle is a symmetrical red phlange (the longest) pointing straight up. A blue phlange, curved and pointing down, is on the left, and a curved green one on the right points upward. It can be seen on the curved support beam and beside the open doorway in these shots. A clearer, more recent image can be found at http://www.twisty.org

One argument against the sun rays being the points, would be the different colors on the original komerex stella.***One argument in favor of the sun ray theory is of course the Yellow circle at the center, from which the points/rays originate. Even in later versions this is sometimes orange with red points. So this may be an image of the sun.

Upon further consideration I believe that instead of a compass, which would have come later in cultural history, the komerex stela is likely to be an early visual representation of the elements of life:
- The yellow circle the sun, and by extention the sky. Due to the eternally overcast skies of the Homeworld the sun/sky is obscured by
- The straight red flange, which overshadows the others. This bilaterally symmetrical resembles a simple dagger blade and suggests the blood of life and death. It in turn is supported by
- The water and plant life of the blue and green flanges

I propose that other color variations, of which the dichromatic red and black seems to be the current favorite, are either:
- artistic variations, or
- alterations in which the colors of the dominant political faction are superimposed upon the original.
The latter is a way of signifying superiority, of claiming the Empire as territory. It would be consistant with the regime change used as a justification for "The Great Revision".

I ask anyone who knows the geometric term for the flanges/rays/whatevers to report in.

-=- Kesvirit

[ngabwI]

If we assume that the Larger point on the top is not pointing North (as it would be on earth) but east, it would not be all that illogical to assume that thecompas is pointing to where the sun god lives (or at least wakes up).

Your theory holds more water than you know. Early cartographers did place east at the top of the compass. It was the easiest to find when walking about on ground. Nautical maps began the tradition of placing north at the top, because it was easy to find north, using the North Star. If we had a "South Star" in the night sky, the compass would likely be reversed.

In fact, the very name of the techniques used to get your bearings in an unfamiliar place reveal this long-dead association with the east: "orienteering"

HovpoH 701556.8

[Kesvirit]

Tempting others with such tidbits then leaving them hungry for more can be hazardous to your health. Who were these cartographers? When and where did they live? What were their motivations for such long-distance navigation? Warfare? Trade?

And would not the use of the North Star for navigational purposes be limited to those living "above" the Tropic of Capricorn? Those living in the southern latitudes would do better to use the starpattern known as the Southern Kite as a point of reference.

I congratulate you on your catch of the etymology of "orienteering". Has anyone ever warned you that you may be too clever for your own good?

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

Sailing (or at least ships) seems to have a great deal to do with Klingon culture. The Black Fleet being possibly the best example of this. That being said, perhaps the komerex stella does indeed point east, and perhaps due to the lack of a bright star to the north, Klingon sailors never changed from an east based system. That would explain why the three cardinal points still remain in common usage.

As for why navigation was needed, I think it can be explained by the same theory that explains so much of Klingon culture: nal komerex khesterex. Navigation is needed for travel, travel is the result of motion, motion is needed for growth. For Klingons not to expand outward would be to wither and die. I suspect that the prime reason for this outward grouth would be the need for further resources, which would lead to war once we found others who use or at least desire the same resources.

One thing that makes such navigational tools interesting is the fact that one can never truely reach "east" one can simply contiue to head east. This would mean that as one group met up with others on the homeworld, the compas/navigation concepts would have been easy to communicate, as east would always be "that way, where the sun comes from"  no matter where you were standing or living.

[Kesvirit]

For those who are interested in further discussion on the meanings attached to variations on the komerex stela, I direct you to this most impressive collection at Levinius!  Trefoils. I for one would like to pursue this topic further.

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

Neat site, just don't make the same mistake I did and try the English version which doesn't have nearly as many links. A little playing arround and the German version wasn't all that hard to navigate. That first image which for want of a better term I will call the Beast of the Komerex, is very interesting. If those horns are in place naturally, then perhaps the Komerex Stella is a representation of that Beast and not a compas. This kind of brings us back to East being where the gods live, but that is a metter for another thread. Perhaps the Beast is the guardian of (the place) where the sun rises. Which would bring it's image sort of in line with the ancient compas theory.

One other option that I hadn't considered until re-reading my last post, the idea of east never really being reachable is only true on a round world. On a flat world east would be I suppose the easternmost edge of the world where the dragons or perhaps the Beast of the Komerex dwells.

[Kesvirit]

qoSagh: That first image which for want of a better term I will call the Beast of the Komerex,

The artist merely lables the image as "death.gif". This may place the emphasis on the state of the creature than the creature itself. This image is somewhat problematic as it is more literal and concrete than the others.

If those horns are in place naturally, then perhaps the Komerex Stella is a representation of that Beast and not a compas.

Having stared at that image for perhaps too long, I believe the flanges are not horns but phalanges (finger/toe bones) attached to or superimposed over the rest of the skull. Such a small skull would be unable to support such large horns, and the placement of the horns would impede movement, eating, and especially balance -- the asymmetry of the lower two and their counterclockwise turn would pull the creature's head to its right. The two ridges of bone running down the center of the skull could conceivably be horns that stick out from the skull. Or they could be extentions of bone providing extra surface area on which to anchor heavy neck and upper jaw muscles.

Perhaps the Beast is the guardian of (the place) where the sun rises. Which would bring it's image sort of in line with the ancient compas theory.

It may also be an inside joke by the mapmakers: "You can spend the rest of your life trying to reach the place where the sun rises, but you will never reach your destination and can only die in the attempt." I wouldn't be surprised to find this the basis of a proverb about the futility of stubbornness and the pursuit of one idea or activity at the expense of all others.

One other option that I hadn't considered until re-reading my last post, the idea of east never really being reachable is only true on a round world.

If indeed the is image is related to the directions, your idea of the concept of a round world is supported by the round disc to which the skull and flanges are attached. The circle may not represent the sun, but the world instead.

On a flat world east would be I suppose the easternmost edge of the world where the dragons or perhaps the Beast of the Komerex dwells.

Speculating further: If the image appears on a map, it may also be related to early creation myths. "This map represents the place that is, and this creature created the place that is and/or put us there." The orientation of the flanges is consistant with the form of the feet of Terran birds and each is curved and tapers to a sharp point. In so far as people create gods to explain what they don't understand and to reinforce their own values, I do not believe it to be a stretch that a creation deity of blade and conquering-oriented cultures could have a slashing beak and claws to emphasize killing and death as an integral part of life.

-=- Kesvirit

[elninjo]

Wow Kesvirit, those are some nice logos [Edit -- at Levinius! Trefoils page - Kesvirit]. Thats also an interesting thread. Ive noticed that there are some words writen on each of the points. What are those words and the meanings of them? What do the colours mean. Is it simply the 4 primary colours.
Oh Oh Ive found this one!! Oh Im sure this would be considered sacrilege. What do you guys think. lol (wheres my tongue in cheek thingy)



Cheers

[Kesvirit]

elninjo Wow Kesvirit, those are some nice logos. Thats also an interesting thread. Ive noticed that there are some words writen on each of the points. What are those words and the meanings of them? What do the colours mean. Is it simply the 4 primary colours.

I don't know what the words or the colors signify. There is some speculation on the colors in the above posts.  Anyone who has any ideas is encouraged to present them.

elninjo Oh Ive found this one!! Oh Im sure this would be considered sacrilege. What do you guys think.

Definitely. Lose the stylized olive branches and it might be acceptable: an empire forged of strength spreading across the stars... Where did you find it?

lol (wheres my tongue in cheek thingy)

Try }}:-R <--- tongue-in-cheek Klingon (courtesy of Klythe)

[Kehlan]

That looks very like the Rapid Response Fleet Logo but with the colours reversed.  Ours has the Klingon logo in red superimposed on the Feddie logo - (notice the Klingon one is on top.)  We had the idea because the RRF is a mixed Klingon/Federation Fleet.

Kesvirit, can I get a pic of it put in somewhere?

Kehlan

[Kesvirit]

Certainly. If it is an image that can be linked to, add it to the thread. If you need the image itself posted to the boards, email it to me and I will post it for you.

-=- Kesvirit

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Neat site, just don't make the same mistake I did and try the English version which doesn't have nearly as many links

In case German isn't in your knowledgebase: Lieven/Levinius/quvar collects trefoil-images... 8-) Most of them (if not all) are not his work.
It is a pity that the English part of the site doesn't have that many links. I'll try to nudge Lieven into getting them up-to-date (the German links page still contains a link to the Dutch defunct/dead Tova'Daq fanclub)...

I like the thought of the "Beast from the East"...

I've noticed that there are some words writen on each of the points. What are those words and the meanings of them?

If there are 4 words on the edges of/around the edges of a trefoil, they're most likely strength, aggressiveness, accuracy and straightforwardness or at least the pIqaD transcriptions of those. I had a fairly tough time finding these... Does this maybe mean they have gone out of fashion?

 

[edit] I've looked up the tlhIngan words that might come near (HoS= be strong) (vaQ = be agressive) (qar = be accurate) and (yuDHa' = be honest), but they seem too short to be the same as on that one trefoil

pIqaD = Klingon writing system (mostly what we humans think the Klingon writing system could/should be)

[elninjo]

I found that logo here
http://www.bravofleet.com/bravofleet/fleet_logos.htm

Thinking about the colour aspect of the symbol. It seems to me looking at all the different designs of the logos, there are a lot of them that have the 4 main colours. Ie the 3 primary colours, Red Blue and Green and also yellow is the colour of the circle. The red seems to always be on the upper point and the green and blue also seem to be on the same points of the symbol. The fact that this pattern seem to follow through on many of the logos indicates to me that the other designs albeit pretty and creative, are possibly a “bastardization” of the original.
Red Blue and Green These 3 colours correspond to the 3 colour receptors in our eyes.
On a coat of arms colours have specific meanings ie

Yellow    Represents the elevation of the mind (spirituality)
Red   Warrior or martyr; Military strength and magnanimity
Blue   Truth and loyalty
Green   Hope, joy, and loyalty in love

The circle is a universal symbol with extensive meaning. It represents the notions of totality, wholeness, the infinite, eternity, timelessness. As the sun, it is masculine power; and symbolizes the cycle of time, the perpetual motion of everything that moves, the planets' journey around the sun (the circle of the zodiac), the rhythm of the universe. It has a magical value as a protective agent. In paganism the circle represents a place between worlds where the “gods” are met.
I prefer not to think of it as a religious symbol for my own personal reasons but it does seems to me, to be spiritual.

But all that aside I do feel that the 4 colours have some significance.

Cheers

[Kehlan]

Regarding the colours of the symbol, it very much depends on who invented the symbol as to what it means.  For example, if it was Paramount, the chances are, they just thought it looked nice.

To a Klingon the colours might mean the following (and don't shoot me down on this, I'm only speculating, not claiming its gospel)

Red:  blood (depends on if Klingon blood is red like in TNG or purple as in the movies)
blue: the colour of the sea and sky - representing expansion across the sea and later sky - ie space
green: the colour of land, representing expansion across other lands
yellow:  hmm, no idea on this one

The symbology of colours to a Klingon would probably be completely different to ours and we don't actually know if they see colour in the same way that humans do.  for example, one novel (I think it was pawns and symbols) had the Klingons unable to see red (it appeared black to them) but they had two extra colours in the ultraviolet range.  They also saw white as being a sort of dirty yellow colour due to the shift of other colours.
Now if this were the case, to them the symbol would look very different, with the top point appearing black, and I'm not sure wich way the other colours would shift and again if this were the case, the symbology of those colours would automatically change.

Obviously all that is speculation on my part and is only based on one author's ideas.

Personally I like the symbol that is red on a black background - the contrast is strong and it is not so pretty.

Kehlan

[Kesvirit]

Red Blue and Green These 3 colours correspond to the 3 colour receptors in our eyes.

Humans, yes, but not necessarily Klingons. One model (Pawns and Symbols) holds that Klingons do not see red at all; red appears black to them, with orange/amber being the longest wavelength of light their eyes can process. I think this would rule out red color receptors in the Klingon eye.

On a coat of arms colours have specific meanings ie

Yellow    Represents the elevation of the mind (spirituality)
Red   Warrior or martyr; Military strength and magnanimity
Blue   Truth and loyalty
Green   Hope, joy, and loyalty in love

These connotations are Human, specifically European in use. There is no reason to assume that they have the same connotations to Klingons, or that all Klingons would agree on their meanings. (See http://www.fleurdelis.com/meanings.htm for more on European heraldry.)

The circle is a universal symbol with extensive meaning. It represents...

I would argue that the meanings of the circle are far from universal, and do not mean the same things for all pagans, let alone all Humans, let alone of all Klingons. While we all bring out own preconceptions to the boards, it is important not to overgeneralize! As Klythe wrote in another thread, "Part of the experience of this board is to learn to think more like a Klingon and less like a Terran."

[Qunchuy]

...One model (Pawns and Symbols) holds that Klingons do not see red at all; red appears black to them, with orange/amber being the longest wavelength of light their eyes can process. I think this would rule out red color receptors in the Klingon eye.

Given the prevalence of red-on-black displays aboard Klingon ships, not to mention the typical dim red lighting, I think we can safely say that Pawns and Symbols is contradicted by on-screen canon.

[Kesvirit]

To indulge myself in the local vernacular: "Duh." Did I ever claim it wasn't? I site P&S as being representative of _a_ model of Klindom; I do not site it as incontestable fact.

A primary reason for the existence of these forums is to go beyond the "obvious", to fill in the gaps left by the series and explore beyond the simplistic version of Klingon culture presented on screen. In that spirit I urge you to entertain ideas beyond the pablum that TIIC see fit to feed their audiences.

-=- Kesvirit

[SoplaHtaHwI']

...One model (Pawns and Symbols) holds that Klingons do not see red at all; red appears black to them, with orange/amber being the longest wavelength of light their eyes can process. I think this would rule out red color receptors in the Klingon eye.

Given the prevalence of red-on-black displays aboard Klingon ships, not to mention the typical dim red lighting, I think we can safely say that Pawns and Symbols is contradicted by on-screen canon.

Furthermore to the Klingon ability to distinguish between colors, I present (as I do): SuD for green, blue and/or yellow and everything that resembles those and Doq for red, orange and similar colors. Furthermore there are qIj for black and chIS for white... But that's another thread 

[Kehlan]

To indulge myself in the local vernacular: "Duh." Did I ever claim it wasn't? I site P&S as being representative of _a_ model of Klindom; I do not site it as incontestable fact.
-=- Kesvirit

My own reason for citing this book was to present the thought that we should not assume that Klingons have the same visual equipment as humans have.  There has certainly been no on screen evidence to sugest that klingons can't see red.  It is however a well thought out example of how another species "MIGHT" see things. 

As I said in my earlier post, it is obvious that the perception of colour will vey much affact how a race might assign meanings to that colour.

[elninjo]

Hmm well, Kehlan, I would not “shoot you down”.     Consciously anyways. Unless of course I were facing you on the battlefield lol.
I was not suggesting that my examples have any such meanings here. I was simply trying to spark some differing points of view on this symbol and the colours on it.
I worked for the Vice Chancellor of the Order of St Johns here in Australia and found the coat of arms an interesting topic.
As far as “the circle” not meaning the same thing to all pagans, well all I can say to that is ask any pagan what the circle is for and they will all say. – It is a place where we invoke our gods. The circle is drawn before EVERY ritual, 9’ in diameter generally. The circle is then purified and the ritual begins inside the circle. That is a fact. “What witches do” by Janet and Stewart Farrar is a very good book on wicca (Paganism) But I’m getting off topic a bit here.

The fact that the colours are there, tells me that they mean something. Everything on a symbol has a meaning, which includes colours. The colours don’t change position on the symbol they stay in the same positions.
Klingons may not see the “same” colours as we do but again the fact that they are there tells me that they see all 4 colours as different colours. They may well perceive red as almost black but when we are talking about symbolism, that fact is irrelevant.

Cheers

[Kehlan]

The fact that the colours are there, tells me that they mean something. Everything on a symbol has a meaning, which includes colours. The colours don’t change position on the symbol they stay in the same positions.
Klingons may not see the “same” colours as we do but again the fact that they are there tells me that they see all 4 colours as different colours. They may well perceive red as almost black but when we are talking about symbolism, that fact is irrelevant.

The circle may mean the same thing to all pagans but certainly not to all humans.  As a non pagan, to me it is just a circle and to a Klingon it will have a different meaning again.

I agree completely that the colours probably have meaning and that Klingons can see all the colours on it or they wouldn't use them.  the interesting issue though, is... if they have meaning to a Klingon, what is that meaning?

[Klythe]

     Of note is that the word pagan is a historic term of derision Christians and others have used for just about any incompatible belief systems.  It's Latin root is means 'rural' with connotations of 'country bumpkin', 'hayseed', 'hick', etc.   If someone is calling themselves a pagan, it's a good sign they don't know what they are talking about.

    The circle does mean many things to many people...  To primitive people it is more likely to be associated with the sun and other celestial objects as few terrestrial things come in a perfect circle.   To a slightly more advanced culture, it might represent technology, as the wheel is critical to transportation, milling and a variety of other applications I can only imagine.   It may mean merely 'simplicity' in a modern culture or a continuous cycle.   A circle can represent the totality of everything or the absence of anything (such as the symbol 'zero').   Linguists look long and hard for 'universal symbols' that the same meaning.  Considering one of the criteria for language is that symbols are arbitrarily chosen, it's no surprise how hard it is ti find a truly 'universal symbol'.

    As far as the differences in Klingon vision and blood goes, I hold that it is evidence that there are more than one species of Klingon in the empire.

[Kehlan]

     Of note is that the word pagan is a historic term of derision Christians and others have used for just about any incompatible belief systems.  It's Latin root is means 'rural' with connotations of 'country bumpkin', 'hayseed', 'hick', etc.   If someone is calling themselves a pagan, it's a good sign they don't know what they are talking about.
   

either that or they do know - and choose to use the term anyway.  Much as many of us now use the word Trekkie with all its connotations of geek, anorak etc etc etc - you turn the meaning round, saying, I don't care what you think of me and my beliefs, I am proud of them and your insult does not touch me...

Kehlan