Dahar Master

[Nenbek]

I have looked into it, and I cannot find anything saying exactly what is required for the Doha Master status, in fact I only know of three Doha Masters, Kor, Koloth, and Kang, so what does a warrior have to achieve in life to obtain such status, and are there more, and is it the high council that decides who is a Doha Master?

[Nenbek]

I see another post about this very topic, I feel my question will be answered there, and I spelled it Dahar cause that is what I have always seen, please forgive me, I am new, lol.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

A good friend of mine and I were discussiong this some time back, and the only info that could be cited was the following, which the good General said he believed came from the One of the Day of Honor books...

DaHar Master

Train 1000 warriors who each survive 100 battles

Survive 1000 battles

Survive 100 Honor challenges.

I feel that this is intentionally steep, (As it should be), since being awarded such an incredibly rare recognition should be next to unheard of...

If you think about it, this could easily be amended to reflect activity within fandom, especially where training 1000 Warriors was an analog to *Mentoring* 1000 Warriors, and where there surviving 100 battles was an analog to each entering 100 contests, blood drives, marathons or similar and at least placing? And of course surviving Honor challenges could be a wide range of things, but certainly whatever they were should be difficult...

I see such titles as being worthy of striving for, however few who would claim them would likely have the mettle required...

maj! (Good)...

[Klythe]

    There are a lot of problems with this...   Considering in order to have survived 100 Honor challenges, you would have had to have your honor challenged 100 times,  which is not a very honorable distinction.  After all, who is more honorable, the warrior who has never has his honor challenged or the one who has killed many of his fellow warriors to defend his name.   And the record keeping involved in tracking over a thousand warriors and how many battles each has participated in sounds like a lot more paperwork than Klinons would be willing to do.

    Unfortunately this is the most specific of what I've heard to define what a DaHar master is.  Others have speculated that DaHar is a specific form of martial art.  This sounds a lot better as far as asking what DaHar is and how do you master it.  And it might explain why only those three are said to have mastered DaHar


    If you have met 1000 Klingon fans in your life that is heroic in and of itself!   Never mind trying to teach them anything or judging their participation level.   Considering the size of most local fan clubs, finding 1000 active fans, especially now a days is entirely beyond the realm of sanity.

    We don't know that Dahar Masters are rare, only that they are highly revered.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I'd say: meet 1000 klingon( fan)s, go to 100 klingon outings or outings with klingons and do something a klingon would do (be honorable, drink a beer) a 1000 times (preferably at one of these outings)...

Or such kind of insanity.
Honor, even that of the DaHar kind, is given to you, you can not chase after it... That's my device 8-)

[Kehlan]

Honor, even that of the DaHar kind, is given to you, you can not chase after it... That's my device 8-)

Well, actually I suppose you could chase after it, but any so-called honour gained by someone acting purely in the interests of appearing honourable, would be false honour.

As you say, it has to be earned - the honourable way.

[Nenbek]

I Feel that it cannot be achieved mearly by meeting Klingon fans, perhaps mentoring new warriors, such as myself, and wining competitions in liu of battles if you must, but the training warriors who win competitions, or servive battle is more honorable than say talking to some guy who is wearing a rubber forehead. No offense intended toward anyone, but there is little honor in mearly meeting people. Blood drives, though very honorable, I dont think that can count either, although it is an honorable task. I think Dahar Masters should be few and far between. I have read many posts about it, and it is too bad that there is no official answer, Kor, Koloth, and Kang had to have become Dahar Masters some how?? And they were over a hundred years old, perhaps it took their entire lives to achieve this.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I Feel that it cannot be achieved mearly by meeting Klingon fans
[...]
and wining competitions in liu of battles if you must

Only with Klingon bloodwine though!  Maybe Saurian brandy...

I don't think we fans should not get too hung up about becoming a DaHar master.
Blood drives would be a way, although this is typically North-American (If I'm not incorrectly Informed).
To be honest, I wouldn't know what would be a good measure of a DaHar master, and I do not care too much about it either.
DaHar (Dahar in canon, IIANM/IIRC) Masters (pInpu') can stay fiction, as far as I'm concerned.


DaHar = you believe him/her/it/them
pInpu' = bosses
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
IIANM = If I Am Not Mistaken

[Abbot Nej vIt]

    There are a lot of problems with this...   

Of course there are.

Like so many things, the "Apparent" significance of any thing Klingon is governed First by what the writers of a given source are trying to accomplish. Then, because it is likely not going to have had sufficient thought put into it, or because it was never thought that it would become significant, there is little future support on the part of the Author.

This leaves it in the hands of those who are actually interested, thus every "Fan" will have their own take on whatever the subject matter may be.

Considering in order to have survived 100 Honor challenges, you would have had to have your honor challenged 100 times,  which is not a very honorable distinction. 

I disagree here. An "Honor" challenge has not been defined here (Or to my knowledge anywhere), so there is nothing to suggest that Ones Honor must have been Challenged... It may just as likely be a Challenge for which a favorable outcome would have garnered some level of Honor amongst Ones peers.

  

And the record keeping involved in tracking over a thousand warriors and how many battles each has participated in sounds like a lot more paperwork than Klinons would be willing to do.

Interesting... It occurs to me that since we do not actually "Live amongst Real Klingons", it is impossible to be evaluated them over a life time. Thus it falls upon us as Humans who are Fans of Klingons to determine what is or is not worth keeping track of.

Klingons, (Within the realm of Star Trek Lore), are notorious boasters, and telling of Great Deeds, Stories and Adventures is integral to the culture. I would see this as a Possible "Analog" to the Record keeping that you speak of...

Unfortunately this is the most specific of what I've heard to define what a DaHar master is.  Others have speculated that DaHar is a specific form of martial art.  This sounds a lot better as far as asking what DaHar is and how do you master it.  And it might explain why only those three are said to have mastered DaHar

I too have heard the "Martial Art" explanation, of DaHar. And qa'pIn's literal translation of DaHar, seems possible also. Da = Believe. Har = Act in a Manor of. DaHar could be a matter of Integrity based on acting upon ones beliefs? Which could mean most anything really.

As to Kang, Koloth and Kor, I am inclined to think that such Honors are as likely to have been granted to them by their Authors, based on the "Longevity" of the Characters and recognition of the Actors themselves as much as anything... But I digress...

   

If you have met 1000 Klingon fans in your life that is heroic in and of itself!   Never mind trying to teach them anything or judging their participation level.   Considering the size of most local fan clubs, finding 1000 active fans, especially now a days is entirely beyond the realm of sanity. We don't know that Dahar Masters are rare, only that they are highly revered.

I tend to agree... However, it has also been my experience that any time that a given "Honor" is mentioned within some Canonical source, (DaHar Master, Order of the batlh, etc...), that it does not take long for gaggles of good intentioned Klingon Fans, to procure or create a "Pin" to represent the Honor in question. Just how many DaHar masters are there, if we have only heard of a precious few? It seems unlikely to me that it would be as common as many claim based on the number of Devices I have seen on peoples costumes.

Now I happen to be a stickler for keeping the perceived "Cheese Factor" low when it comes to Role-play. So I tend to see value placed on Legit Club created awards for specific actual participation. Over say simply adopting a vaguely defined Canon status symbol. Rather that is for Community Service, Club Activity Participation, Recruitment or whatever is irrelevant.

So, to me anyway, it is hardly questionable to make an extreme example of what it might take to justify such Honors. And I would also point out that this was a reference to a passage in a Novel, (One which I have not read). The passage itself sparked the discussion.

Regardless, it would be very interesting to me to see consensus of an actual formula and definition to be developed for use as a resource...


   

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Unfortunately this is the most specific of what I've heard to define what a DaHar master is.  Others have speculated that DaHar is a specific form of martial art.  This sounds a lot better as far as asking what DaHar is and how do you master it.  And it might explain why only those three are said to have mastered DaHar

I too have heard the "Martial Art" explanation, of DaHar. And qa'pIn's literal translation of DaHar, seems possible also. Da = Believe. Har = Act in a Manor of. DaHar could be a matter of Integrity based on acting upon ones beliefs? Which could mean most anything really.

DaHar does not mean "act in the manner of Believe"...
Da- is the pronominal suffix of you <verb> him/her/it/them
Har is the verb believe

This would make DaHar "you believe him/her/it/them". At a stretch you could make that to "believable" or "to be believed/trusted"

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Appologies, as I have often stated I am not an actual linguist...

My reference was directly from the addendum in the back of my TKD... (Page 181)

The actual Text reads: Da----------Behave as, Act in the manor of (v)

[Nenbek]

      If you have met 1000 Klingon fans in your life that is heroic in and of itself!   Never mind trying to teach them anything or judging their participation level.   Considering the size of most local fan clubs, finding 1000 active fans, especially now a days is entirely beyond the realm of sanity.

    We don't know that Dahar Masters are rare, only that they are highly revered.

As I said, the act of meeting someone, even a great warrior can not carry much honor, if any. Even given the world today and great number of closet trekies who are afraid to admit they like the show cause it is considered a geek thing. (g'day't society)

And Dahar Masters have to be rare to maintain the level of prestige, think about it, if everyone was a Dahar Master, how revered would they be?
Of all the Klingons we have seen, they only advertised one Dahar Master, and hinted at the second two. (they may have come out and said Koloth and Kang were as well, but short memory) I am sure there are more, but have we seen them? Cause we have seen several chancellors, none of whichwere assumed to have the title, and even the great warrior Kahless himself was never referred to as Dahar Master, if it was not a rarity surely these fine warriors would be masters, and one would think they would advertise a little, maybe not them personally, but someone referring to them would be almost obligated to address them as such.

[Klythe]

    By your logic, Nursemaids are equally respected and honored, as we have only met one of those as well, Worf's.  }}:P

    However we are assured that there is only one Chancellor living at a time, presumably this is not true of DaHar Masters.   It would probably be highly insulting to address a chancellor who was also a dahar master as "dahar master".  This implies that you do not accept that  the one is the Chancellor, and is unfit to rule the Klingon Empire.  Most Klingons perfer not to carelessly insult the Chancellor, perhaps because they do not want to die at his hand.

    Interesting thing though...  If Dahar is DaHar taken as a conjucated verb, "You-believe-him" Master sounds very much to be the rank bestowed on a storyteller whose great tales have been consistantly proven true, reasonably free of exaggeration and boasts.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

    Interesting thing though...  If Dahar is DaHar taken as a conjucated verb, "You-believe-him" Master sounds very much to be the rank bestowed on a storyteller whose great tales have been consistantly proven true, reasonably free of exaggeration and boasts.

This IS an interesting interpretation.

On Da - behave as/Act in the manner of and Har - believe (both verbs): I'm not 100 (or 80 for that matter) certain, but I don't think you can add two verbs together to make a new one... It might have been done in the Elder days, but I for one have not heard proof or theory about it in the near history.

As this is very off-topic, I will leave it.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Klythe,

If I am understanding your suggestion correctly, the implication might be that DaHar (Also interpreted within Klindom as that which *IS* Klingon), would be the striveing to be so Klingon that there is "No Doubt" about your candor or Motives when you say something? Such as in your example of a Story Teller who's tales have been consistently found to be true... I like this take on the concept... And I think that it could extend beyond the professional Bard...

Qa'pIn,

It may be off topic in some regard, but it is relevent, since we are after all discussing the Word DaHar... Also, it is valuable to me personally, because every time my grammer is corrected I learn a little more about the Hol {Language}...

maj!

[qoSagh]

If DaHar is taken to mean believable...then it is not a noun to be mastered as it is an adjective applied to master. The whole rank is then believable master. Hmmm, doesn't that just shoot down a whole bunch of cheesy theories. How cool.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

If DaHar is taken to mean believable...then it is not a noun to be mastered as it is an adjective applied to master. The whole rank is then believable master. Hmmm, doesn't that just shoot down a whole bunch of cheesy theories. How cool.

That's actually what I'm hoping for. I do however like the master storyteller too... Although that'd be...


something else entirely (haven't got the blasted mu'ghom (mach) handy, and the mu' HaqwI' doesn't help either...

mu' = word
mu'ghom = dictionary
mach = be small
HaqwI' = surgeon

[KMgren]

Brothers and Sisters, I have not read all the posts but while you try to hen peck the word/ title itself you have just to look at the characters themselves and understand what a Dahar master is... A warrior of such skill and experience that despite the odds he/she alone can bring that victory to you time and time again... how else do you think that the masters Kor, Koloth, and Kang were able to live for so long? Kor sees Worf's battle plan and immediately sees how to make it happen... could Worf had achieved victory on his own; without falling into Lt. Dan(from Forrest Gump) mode? Kor made it happen despite the odds... see what I am getting at?

[qoSagh]

The one should read all the posts before commenting on recent posts that are not to your liking. Debating the word is only a relatively recent trend in this thread. Although since in order to define Dahar Master one must define Dahar, so the word itself would seem to be important.

I have posted about this in other threads about Dahar, but this is a problem with much of Klindom, every time a new title comes out on screen we are forced to endure countless fans who suddenly become that title. Dahar Master, Order of the Betleth, Chancellor all hold this dubious status.

I also wonder where the information that Kang, Koloth or Kor were all Dahar Masters comes from. I believe that only Kor was mentioned as having held the title. Memory Alpha does say they all held it but references an article on Blood Oath that doesn't say one way or the other. Whatever the meaning, it was a rare enough title that upon hearing that one was upstairs in holding, Jadzia immediately went to see who it was.