What is the KDF?

[monkeytroll]

Hi im monkeytroll and i was just wondering what is the KDF? because ive heard it used sevreal time son these forums

monkeytroll

[Klythe]

    Hullo, monkeytroll.  Welcome to the Klingon Imperial Forums. 

    The KDF is the Klingon Defensive Force.  It's basically depending on context, either usually refering to a Klingon fan club, or the Klingon star fleet.    I don't think this term has actually been used on the show or not.  The first I saw it was in FASA's Next Generation source book for their pen and paper Roleplaying game.   I frankly don't much care for the term... It smacks too much of the JDF, Japan's Defensive Force, implying the Klingon Empire was over thrown and the Federation/Americans took over and forced a reorganization, and only allow the Klingons a Defensive Force.   We all know that Klingons enjoy being offensive, so I doubt they would willingly refer to their fleet a 'Defensive Force'.

[Kehlan]

I am fairly certain I have heard the term "Klingon Defence Force" used on screen - I think it was used in the episode where Riker goes on board a Klingon vessel and again when Kurn comes on board the Enterprise.
I agree though that it does sound a bit non Klingon but there is a saying amongst Terrans that is probably equally valid for Klingons...

The best defence is a good offence.

Kehlan

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Yes the KDF, or Klingon Defense Force *Is* what the Klingon Military Arm of the Empire is called... It does have Canon support...

While I do understand Klythes reticence to use such *Weak Sounding* terms, which appear contrary to the Klingon Philosophy of Manifest Destiny, I would point out that Klingons do infact employ Defensive strategies (Armour, Shielded Vessels and even Ground based Fortifications)... And of Course Kahless himself said that the Wind does not respect a fool...

It may even be that there is an intentional nod to post war politicking by the writers... However, I would also suggest the "Possibility" that there is a Psychological element here as well... The Klingons we have seen (Especially the Diplomats), have tended to come from a very "Defensive" place in there arguments to support Klingon methodology (We even assumed that the Genesis Weapon was intended to be used against us)... So it may be a Two Pronged strategy of "Lulling" potential opponents into dropping their Guards by thinking that the Klingon  military is nothing more than a Defense force, and it may be a legitimate perspective of the Klingon People that the employment of such a force is ultimately defensive in nature...?

[Klythe]

     "Manifest Destiny" is also a terran term.   How about nal komerex, khesterex which is "What does not grow, dies."   Armour, shields and fortifications are tools not strategy.  They can be used for offense as well as defense.   Where do you arganize an attack force if not for a fortification to keep your troops protected until the time is right to attack?   And Kahless's statement could be understood to mean "Do not trust your defenses, instead get out of they way of harm you dolt!"

    We "assumed" the Genesis weapon was going to be used against us?   The mere existance of such a terrorist weapon is enough of a threat to warrent a war to destroy it.   As stupid as Terrans can be, i don't think we would have so little honor for our opponents as to think that that change in the name of our fleet structure would lull them into weakness.   We don't even need to do such things, the Federation lulls itself into weakness regardless of what we call our fleet.

 
     

[GTman05]

i wouldent call the Federation "weak", if they were there wouldent be a Federation just another conqered world of the Empire, even though the federations ships are built more for science and exploration (argh us Hew-mons are capable of so much more) they are well sheilded and are more then a match for any Klingon ship!

[Kehlan]

As the Klingon captain of a Federation ship (ok, I know its not canon but who cares), I can assure you that my vessel is more than a match for any Klingon ship.  If you think the Federation is weak, feel free to come and have a go.  I will look forward to the battle.

Personally I believe that both the Federation and the Klingons are stronger when they stand together side by side as allies.

Kehlan

[Klythe]

Any Klingon ship you say?      I'd take that bet.     But more to the point, Klingon ships are much more spartan in design and cost less to build so we field a much larger fleet.

     But find where I said the Federation was week.   I said it lulls itself to weakness.  And it does.   Do you realise how few Ships were built of the classes of ships the that have an Enterprise in them?   Usually between 10 and 20, sometimes more but generally not a lot.   That's all, for the entire Federation, 150 member homeworlds, thousands of colonies, and 15 Constitution class ships in TOS and just 13 Galaxy class starships in TNG.

    If they could, Most in the Federation would perfer that they never need to build a warship ever again.   This has been part of Terran culture since perhaps the 19th century...  But when the Federation is faced with a threat, they will find strength to respond.   If I did think the Federation was entirely weak, yes, there would be that many more subject races in the Klingon Empire.

    Now all that was tangential to the topic, which is the KDF.  Is the KDF the only Klingon fleet?  Is it the biggest or just the most... visible.

[Kehlan]

Any Klingon ship you say?      I'd take that bet.        

Ok, maybe not something like the Negh Var class.  However the Nebula class ship, while it is not focused on much on screen is almost as big as a Galaxy class, cheaper to make (so there are plenty of them) and more versatile.  So the Endeavour could probably hold its own against most ships, especially with a Klingon in command.

     

  Now all that was tangential to the topic, which is the KDF.  Is the KDF the only Klingon fleet?  Is it the biggest or just the most... visible.

Hmm, good question.  My opinion is that it is the only official government run fleet (in the same way that the Royal Navy is the British fleet) but alot of fan fiction has private fleets belonging to the more powerful Houses and of course there are the mercenaries and privateers that although approved by the government can be denied if they cause too much trouble.

Kehlan

[Abbot Nej vIt]

 Is the KDF the only Klingon fleet? Is it the biggest or just the most... visible.

I Would go so far as to suggest that in a way, the KDF is maybe more than the Klingon NAVY per se, thus more than a "Fleet"... I would see the analog being (In a Contemporary Real World example), sort of like the "U.S. Armed Forces"... Which actually covers some Five branches of service... All of which are Government agencies, but none of which ARE the entire Military... (As a side note, even the U.S. Armed Forces only make up Five of the Seven Uniformed Service of the United States within the U.S. Government)...

I Would support this with the example that in TNG and DS9 both, various numbered "Fleets" are mentioned as having taken part in different military actions at different times... (Though Argueably these were Fleets made up of "Alliances" which extended beyond Klingon Specific Units)...

In general we have seen (Most likely due to incontinuity on the part of Trek writers) the term Imperial Klingon Fleet, and KDF used interchangeably. I see this as a fluke, since obviously there are many different "Units" (Or possibly even Unit Types) within the Empires Military Structure. The Klingon Civil War fought between Gowron and Durass, showed us that many of these are muteable and capable of Following the Banner of a given family, and changing Alliances... Which is where the traditional (Contemporary U.S. Armed Forces model), breaks down... Perhaps continuing to support the TOS era analog of Feudal Japan...

For myself... Such "Uncertain" (Read ill defined), examples of how the Klingon Empire is supposed to function, goes a long way toward supporting Fan-driven material... (i.e.) K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet... Within Klin-dom (Klingon Fandom), terms we are but One of several Imperial "Units" within the Larger Klingon Military Construct... In fact we do not even consider ourselves to be the "Biggest" or most "Potent" or to be even particularly "Important" in the larger scheme of things. This allows for a "Broader" recognition of other fan clubs, by seeing them, and relating to them, as being "Other" military Units of the Empire as a whole...

That having been said, my "Opinion" about the nature of the KDF and rather it represents a single Fleet, or all of the Klingon Military, is obviously somewhat subjective. I see it as representing, as stated, the Military Arm of the Imperial Government, with a variety of different Military Commands and Branches falling within it.

maj! (Good)...

[Klythe]

OK, maybe not something like the Negh Var class.  However the Nebula class ship, while it is not focused on much on screen is almost as big as a Galaxy class, cheaper to make (so there are plenty of them) and more versatile.  So the Endeavour could probably hold its own against most ships, especially with a Klingon in command.

    Smaller, cheaper and more versatile, sounds live you have given yourself the best of all worlds...  Why did they even build any of the Galaxy class would you say?  Why would a larger/slower, more expensive less versatile ship be the flagship of the Federation?

That having been said, my "Opinion" about the nature of the KDF and rather it represents a single Fleet, or all of the Klingon Military, is obviously somewhat subjective. I see it as representing, as stated, the Military Arm of the Imperial Government, with a variety of different Military Commands and Branches falling within it.

maj! (Good)...

    That is all any of us have.  So it is equally valid as anything I say, as long as you back it up with some form of reasoning or evidence.

   Personally, my own belief is that there is much more out there than the KDF.   Especially if you consider in The Final Reflection  Krenn was wondering how powerful Maximilian Grandison III was if he allowed the government to take his money.  Of course much has changed in the empire since those days, but Klingons don't strike me as the types to let government control all the toys. 

    Numbered fleets indicate to me organizational divisions that are basically identical is structure and mission, only different in something basically interchangeable such as where they operate.

    The Klingon Civil War is a very interesting topic to consider.  What was the KDF's role in the war?  I would say, they are duty bound to maintain security of the empire, to ensure the new leader has an empire to return to.  As a Defensive Force, they are not allowed to participate in secession battles.
 
    So which ships fight the battles?   The House fleets.  Kurn commanded a squadron of ships loyal to House Mogh and himself.  They did not take commands from Generals or Admirals, only Captain Kurn, the hereditary leader of the House of Mogh.

    Why would a captain command a squadron of ships, and a Lord only one small ship?   Lord Krudge also seemed to be free to act without informing anyone else of his intentions and plans.  Not a superior officer, not a House leader...  Krudge was almost certainly a privateer.

    Of course in your favour you have Kor and his 'glorious whole', everyone is spied on, including himself.  This of course was only picked up in fandom.   No where else do we see this again.  So it might not be pertinent to modern klingons.

[Kehlan]

    Smaller, cheaper and more versatile, sounds live you have given yourself the best of all worlds...  Why did they even build any of the Galaxy class would you say?  Why would a larger/slower, more expensive less versatile ship be the flagship of the Federation?

I didnt invent the nebula class, they have been used on screen and my info on them is fairly canon, coming from the Star Trek encyclopedia and from a very good website which lists the specs for most types of Federation Vessel. http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/nebula.html

The website states the following:
Shortly after the Galaxy Class Project was approved in 2343, it was realized that the expense of building such a large capital ship, both in resources and time, would limit the number of ships being constructed. Starfleet, however, was impressed with the design of the Galaxy-class, and wished to adapt it for use in a smaller, less expensive class of starships. In 2345, the Nebula Class Project was officially approved after designers worked for nearly seven months side-by-side with the Galaxy Class Project team at the ASDB.

We actually chose Endeavour as the original HMS Endeavour has connections with my local area.  Also, we could use it without too much conflict with canon as all we know about its history is that it was the only Federation vessel to survive Wolf 359 intact and there is no mention of what happened to the ship afterwards.

Kehlan