Klingons and Norse Religion

[qoSagh]

OK, so here it is. One of the many real life religions that were seen as intruding into Klindom, and thus lead to the start of what would become the qaptaQ, was Norse paganism. There was a whole line family called theld Azhir, lead by K'Thor. They were certainly not the only such intrusion, but they were the most visible. Now, in developing a fictional Klingon religion, there was never any attempt to steer away from any single belief system, including the Norse system.

Now, jump ahead almost 15 years to the current time. The qaptaQ has been through many changes. Canon views on Klingon spirituality have been changed and changed again. The qaptaQ has been through two websites. Then the fun starts. I periodically do a series of Klingon related searches to see how the different search engines rate the new qaptaQ site. I also simply search for the word qaptaQ. On one such search I found a site dedicated to all manner of religions and sects. It is a bot run site, that sends it's little bots out to scan the web for interesting sites and categorizes them based on the information it finds. Apparently one such site it found was the qaptaQ site.

The bots have apparently classified the qaptaQ as a site dedicated to Asatru, which I had to look up and discovered that it was a Norse religious tradition, that included gods like Thor. So it would seem that at least in the eyes of an automated web crawler, we have come full circle. While Klingons and the Norse once reveled together, apparently our traditions appear similar to these electronic creatures. Could Michael Jan Friedman have been right about Sto-vo-kor?

[X'na]

I have many friends who practise Asatru, and we have many good discussions about the similarities between Klingons and the Norse. I personally love the similarities, as it helps make it all seem more "real" somehow.
I'm not Asatru (I'm a Hellenic Witch), but I enjoy many aspects of it and have done a fair amount of research, if only to keep up with my Asatru buddies when we go "paint the town red". 
This is just a personal opinion, but I honestly think they based the whole St Vo Kor concept on Asatru based theories and practises. It sounds like a great way to spend the afterlife, if you ask me. 

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I wonder to what extent Asatru and Klingon belief systems compare.
It's not just the afterlife, is it?

[X'na]

I don't think it's just the afterlife, although this is just my personal opinion. They both seem to have a love of life and battle that are very similar. A code of honour that they live by, and the love of the occasional good party. 

Every time I see a Klingon heavy episode of Trek, and then spend time with my Asatru friends, I'm struck by the myriad of similarities. Not to say that they are exactly the same, but they're at least cut fromt he same cloth (again in my own personal opinion).

[qoSagh]

Of course I would say that the similarities are due to writers laziness. Why create anything new, when you can take a bunch of Vikings, cross out Norway and write in Q'onoS in crayon.

[X'na]

In my book they're both equally valid so I don't find a problem with the similarities. There are also a lot of differences, so I'll have to respectfully disagree that they're carbon copies of each other. Similar, yes, the exact same, no.

My hereditary background includes quite a bit of German, so I must admit I'm drawn to Viking/Asatru  culture. It may be one reason Klingons resonate so clearly within my soul, too. Whatever the reason, I'm glad both cultures are around. 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Of course I would say that the similarities are due to writers laziness. Why create anything new, when you can take a bunch of Vikings, cross out Norway and write in Q'onoS in crayon.

I suppose it could be argued that nothing is really ever original, even if it appears *New* to us, someone somewhere was likely inspired by something which came before...

I really Know very little about Norse religion, (Other than the odd bits and pieces that "Everyone" seems to know)... Were I to make a "Guess", it would be that the ancient Norse were themselves inspired by something which came before them, and may be lost now to history, or disregarded as mythology...

But I have had MANY discussions about the apparent similarities between the "Biker" Sub-cultural origins and that of the Norse... Inevitably at some point someone will attempt to connect Klingons as being "The Bikers" of the Star Trek universe... To which I take umbrage, not because I don't like Bikers, In fact I know a lot of Bikers, some of whom are also Klingons... What I find fault and offense in, is that there is such a need to find a comparrison at all. That some how by drawing these connections this would legitimize Klin-dom in some way?

We are neither Bikers, nor Vikings, (Nor are we Euro-Asian, which were the alleged true inspiration of the Klingons), yet we may lay claim to some common ideallogy and similarityto all of these... Had *I* created the Klingon culture perhaps I could actually add something useful by way of confirming or denying what real world cultural elements trully have been drawn upon...

However, all of that having been said, the Kewl thing about all of this, is that we get to take an active role in effecting the future of the Klingon cultural identity, simply by contributing to it... Which is pretty darn Kewl if you ask me...

maj! (Good)...

[qoSagh]

I too have seen the Biker analogy brought up many times. Usually it is an excuse within fandom to either behave like a (stereotype) Biker or to not join a Klingon club because you don't want to be associated with (stereotype) Bikers. When I first started out in Klindom, there was a great deal of interest in Klingons wearing allot of chains, which as far as I know has never been canon. Then again this was in a largely uncostumed club, so this was more regular clothing than costume. I think the whole Biker thing and to a lesser extent the Viking thing are all about getting to behave in a way that you wouldn't as a human. I once heard the quote that wearing a headpiece, was like having a license to misbehave.

I personally had gone with the theory that Klingons had been developed over time to reflect source material from a variety of cultures. Of course Soviet Russian, then Norse Viking, and at least some Japanese Samurai, plus I am sure others. I know I had tried to incorporate several different sources in the development of the qaptaQ. I was both amused and annoyed, to find that the bot thought the qaptaQ was that closely related to Asatru.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I too have seen the use of Chains, Spikes, Leather Jackets and so on, as default Klingon casual wear or as an alternative to wearing a more *Traditional* Uniform... I certainly respect the individuality often associated with Klingon costuming, but I am also glad that I chose a club that has at least a minimal sort of *Uniform Code*...<Grin>...

It is always interesting to me when I hear, what must be a wide-spread theory, that Ridges = Licence to be unrully... It is true that when I put on my ridge, my voice drops a little, I slouch a bit less and I feel taller...<Chuckle>... And I have generally attributed such comments as being an example of trying to communicate such feelings, if poorly, to those who have not yet experienced the potentially kewl process of taking on a new personality... Especially a personality as *Liberating* in a sense, as playing a Klingon can be...

Generally speaking, it has also been my experience, that those who put some thought into who and what they wish to portary in the way of a *Klingon Character*, and who take the time to prepare themselves a bit before going into public, are more likely to play a convincing Klingon than are those who rely exclusively on wearing latex on their heads... Even in saying this I know that I am essentially preaching to the Imperial choir as it were...<Smirk>...

Okay, off topic alert over...<Grinning>...

I think that it is (As already stated), nearly impossible to create something trully unique, and it is totally legit to be *Inspired* by that which we see in the real world around us, and to incorporate it into our play (Just look at the "Rank Titles" that we use in the chIrgh {temple}, many of them have analogs to real world religious titles, because there has been little to no work offered within Canon sources)... The point I was trying to make was that we have the opportunity to develope the Klingon culture beyond these things (Eventaully I do intend to *Convert* our Clergy Rank Titles to more typically Klingon sounding Titles)...

Perhaps I digress too far, the esteemed meycha, had actually started this topic to comment on the capacity of a Bot Program to go out onto the internet and draw its own conclusions on the relevance of a Real World religious connection to a Fictional religious order... And ultimately the circular nature of history that it provides by doing so... In a way, that is actually pretty kewl, as it shows us how far technology has come, and also the broad scope of the programming that must be required to achieve that result, regardless of any *Personal* opinions that I or anyone else might have about drawing comparisons between Klingon culture and the real world...

So if I hijacked the thread briefly, I apologize...

[qoSagh]

This may have been a hijacking, but it was an interesting one to read.

I too like at least a minimal uniform code, but being that Klingon s\costuming take a bit more skill and usually more funds than that of our Federation counterparts, such rules are often hard to enforce, even on the willing. I have seen quite a few who never make it out of the "Class B" and I know of one who went for years with simply a Klingon T-Shirt bought at a convention and no attempt at uniform or make up. To each their own, but I don't really get the I'm all Klingon but only go half way there attitude. On the subject of costuming, by the way, my compliments on the new vestments. Quite a nice blend look.

As for knowing who you are as a Klingon before you dress up, I wholeheartedly agree. All the costuming and prosthetics in the world wont hide a poorly conceived character or lack thereof. In a way, I guess the qaptaQ has helped me with all my characters after the first one, since by having a belief system, i know a bit more about who they are and what it means to become them, even for a bit. My line brother refers to it as "letting Beragha out to play" which is a reference to my best known and least popular Klingon persona.

As for ranks, until we had the unified list of titles, we basically used FASA which basically used the United States Military ranks. I applaud any attempt to devise Klingon titles. I did that with meycha, but it was easy, the goal was only a single title, not a table full of ranks. You have your work cut out for you. Any help you need, I'd be glad to offer what I can. meycha comes from a Japanese word, and qaptaQ comes from an Egyptian word, both with specific spiritual meanings that were relevant to what we were trying to do. The same process could likely be applied to chIrgh ranks.