Possible newly discovered Klingon Gods

[qoSagh]

WARNING: This is all my personal theory, I have little if anything canon or non canon to back up this theory. While researching for a Klingon timeline, I found many Klingon Ships named and those names translated. While compiling a list of those names, one pattern I found was a half dozen ships named after the bringer of something. The more I looked at these names, I wondered why there were not more of them, then I got to thinking what if these names are not saying that the ships bring these things? What if these ships are named after the original bringers of these things? That got me to thinking are these titles possibly the secularization of old Klingon gods, could perhaps the Bringer of Truth be the God of Truth? So I have listed the six names / titles below. It is also interesting to know that there are separate Bringers of pain and agony.

K't'agga    Bringer of Pain
K't'alla   Bringer of Truth
K't'inga    Bringer of Destruction
K't'Kara   Bringer Of Destiny
K't'mara    Bringer Of Justice
K't'rika    Bringer Of Agony

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Had Just FInnished Asking if This Sort of "Guess" (Theory), might not be Likely...<Grin>...

They Could be Gods, or Heroes, or Even Seasons or Something? There are a lot of Nice Possibilities...

[qoSagh]

I hadn't thought of seasons, but that does make for an interesting calendar. Imagine being born on the 9th day of the season of agony.

Of course that brings to mind all sorts of questions, like why a certain season would be the bringer of justice, perhaps because it is usually clear during that season and the naked stars see more than they do at other times of the year. I suppose that Destruction could be a severe weather, like hurricane or monsoon season.

Another interesting thing is that K't'inga is the Bringer of Destruction. I remember seeing a plot outline for an episode of the Star Trek II series (that was never produced) that had the enterprise transporting a young Klingon male who was about to assume the throne, his title was K't'inga. I don't know if that translated to Emperor or to Regent or Crown Prince, but the idea that a change in Emperors could be a destructive power is interesting.

I still like the idea of these being gods, whose names have been changed over the generations. Perhaps the seasons were named after the gods that were more prevalent during those times. Humans have months named after Roman gods, so it isn't all that much of a stretch.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

So in this Light, (And I Like the Idea that the Seasons Might be Named After Ancient Gods, Sort of Brings an Extra Dimension to the Table)... The Bringer of Pain, And Bringer of Agony Might Be Twin Gods that Take Turns or Some Such Silliness, So Every So Often (Leap Years?), The Season Gets Called By One or the Other, While in Other Years the First Reigns Un-Challenged?

So in a Marginally "Arbitrary" Order Let us Suppose that the Seasons Would Have Been Somewhat Similar to Those of Sol III, (Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter with a Fifth Unique Season Deep Winter, Perhaps The End of the Year, We Know Klingons Do Not Like the Cold), How Does this Line Up Sound?

Spring............K't'Kara   Bringer Of Destiny
Summer.........K't'alla   Bringer of Truth
Autumn...........K't'mara    Bringer Of Justice
Winter...........K't'inga    Bringer of Destruction
Deep Winter...K't'agga    Bringer of Pain (K't'rika    Bringer Of Agony)

I Know It Can be a Dangerous Proposition When One Attempts to "Develop" Knew Concepts in Klindom, But it is Too Interesting a Discussion to Pass up at Least Theorizing about it...

[qoSagh]

Why not just have six seasons? Of course with incomplete data, there could be more gods/seasons out there. I have expanded on your idea of two winters with two summers. My old calendar idea had 10 months, but I never addressed seasons. I think that with 6 seasons (one for each god, including Pain AND agony) it could look something like this:

Spring: Season of Destiny - With spring being about rebirth destiny seems like a good season

Summer: Bringer of Truth - As the clouds clear and it begins to get hotter the naked stars are more prevalent

Hot Summer: Bringer of Justice - Almost no cloud cover at all, now not only is truth an issue so is Justice.

Autumn: Season of Destruction - Plants begin to die, it gets colder, destruction seems like a good term.

Winter: Season of Pain - it's cold, painfully cold, but not agonizing yet.

Deep Winter: Season of Agony - Even colder than pain itself, perhaps this season is why the Agonizer was named.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Very Interesting... I Like the Idea of the Two Most "Intense" Opposites each having Two Variations (Summer and Winter)...

I Wonder, Just What "Does" the Agonizer Do? I Know that it has Been Described in Novels as being a Device that Taps Directly into the Nervous System, But I am Not Sure what "Type" of Agony it Solicits... Perhaps it is the Sensation of Extreme Cold...<Grin>... (As a Nod to Your Idea)...

Hot Summer Sounds a Little "Awkward" Somehow... Any other Titles that Might Support the Justice Angle? Great Summer? High Summer? Or Maybe Strong Summer ("Justice Belongs to the Strong")?

I Think we Could be on to Something here, even if We are the Only Ones Who Ever Use it...<Chuckle>...

[qoSagh]

I was thinking of Strong Summer for a similar reason, perhaps the expression that Justice belongs to the Strong is not about legal justice, but about the extreme heat of justice. Only the Strong can fight in such heat, and thus the season of Justice belongs to those strong enough to do so. So yeah, I could go with Strong Summer.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

So Another Question that Occurs to Me...

Kar-tela (According to the Left Hand of Destiny Books), is the Goddess of Destiny... So, is  K't'Kara Another Name for Her? An Associate? Her Charioteer?

I Suppose I am Inclined to Go with the Concept of Multiple Names For Similar Gods in Either Different "Cultures" or Regions, or Just Different times in History... If Martok Knew of Her as Kar-tela, then Perhaps She Would Appear to Him Using the Name he would Find Most Familiar... Alternately Kar-tella Could be Her Most Ancient Name and K't'Kara could be a Rename by a Particular Dynasty...

Though it Could Even be Argued that Klingon Culture "Mirrors" their Ancient Gods, thus Perhaps Kar-tela Vanquished K't'Kara in Order to Take Her Place...

Regardless, since we Are Theorizing about these THings it is Probably Worth Considering the Various Sub-topics that Go along with them... This seems to be One of them...

[qoSagh]

I like the idea of different names for different times. Or perhaps Kar-tela was her propper name, and K't'Kara was her title.

Although if we look at the idea of gods fighting among themselves, then the best comming out on top....that ads a whole new dimension to the Klingon mythos. Now we not only have Klingons doing battle with the gods, but we have Klingons doing battle with the best of the gods.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I like the idea of different names for different times.

Agreed. It Does Seem Unlikely that The Gods Would Maintain their Most Ancient Names through Each Successive Period of History. We Have a Precedent for Cultural Changes Like Dialect or Whole Language Changes Occurring During Significant Changes in Power. (From Emperor to Emperor For Instance).

Or perhaps Kar-tela was her propper name, and K't'Kara was her title.

Possibly, But I Think that the First Argument is a Little more "Direct".

Although if we look at the idea of gods fighting among themselves, then the best comming out on top....that ads a whole new dimension to the Klingon mythos. Now we not only have Klingons doing battle with the gods, but we have Klingons doing battle with the best of the gods.

True. And it Also Establishes a Reference Point for the Conjecture that When the Klingon Gods were Killed/Vanquished, that Certain "Responsibilities" Were taken on by those Klingons. Such as the Need for a Clear Code of Honor and Justice Left in the Resulting Vacuum. Thus if the Gods Had a System of Vieing for a Particular Duty or Responsibility by Challenging the Existing Gods for that Role, than it may have Made Sense that The Klingon People would Embrace a Similar Strategy. Also it Should be Noted that "Out Foxing" an Opponent can be Every Bit or Even More Effective than Pure Combat, So Not All Celestial Roles would Necessarily be Taken Through Killing Ones Opponent.

[qoSagh]

We know of at least two languages, and one of them is reported to have many dialects, so the multiple names theory definitely works. Where I was going with the name and title idea was that the title Bringer of Agony, might be more of a job title than name. If the titles are collected into a list of godly responsibilities, then yes I can see those being assumed by Klingons for the good of the race.

Also the idea of out foxing, has long been part of the qaptaQ back story. The path to the home of the gods, was discovered through research. Knowledge was the key that allowed the battle to take place. The specific weapons included knowing certain secrets. Physical combat wouldn't be all that effective against a god, I would think.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

It has been a while since we have discussed this topic... I am currently working on a resource for the Clergy, which includes some "Comparative" religion (Within the Klingon domain)... One of those is a list of Klingon Deities, Gods and Prophets.

Would you mind if I incorporated some of this into that list? In doing so we would have to sort of be nailing down the idea of course, in order to establish it as "Fanon"...

With that would be agreed upon "Names" for the Gods... And or concensus on the "Titles" of the Gods...

An Analog that I think we missed, in order to clarify this discussion would be something like the Norse Mythology, where 'Thor' is a God... Who also Happens to have the Title, 'God of Thunder'...

Of course all of this needs some "Fleshing-out"...

- Nail down rather seasons are named for Gods or vice versa...
- Confirm some of the names for some of these Gods (And their sources including us if we have to establish such)...
- Consenses on Name vs. Title...
- Possible historical framework for "When" these Gods were recognized...

What am I missing?

[qoSagh]

Well within the qaptaQ writings, we have descriptions of the gods, but never refer to them by name. The only one that actually was named was the vreqlargh (I know we have debated his godhood before) but that was accidental. In the research done by another member into what gods the Klingons would have recognized, a description of a god was found that almost perfectly describes the vreqlargh and his duties. Thus he made the list. I will have to look and see if I can find the original descriptions. I know I have the titles, but I may not have the paragraphs that followed anymore. It was early research, that didn't fit with out later fanon.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Kewl... Any such info would be appreciated...