Ship Names in klinonasse?

[qoSagh]

While researching a Klingon timeline, I came across several names of Klingon ships and the classes of ships most of which had translations. These were mostly credited as being from FASA or Starfleet Battles. These were definitely not in tlhIngan Hol, but appeared to be in klingonasse. Can anyone shed more light on this? Have we indeed found more words/phrases or have I stumbled on a third Klingon language?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Interesting... What Discourages You From Considering them to be Klingonaase? Also it has Often Seemed like Even Canon Ship Naming Conventions Lean Towards Klingonaase Sounding Words (B'Moth, T'Ong, Rottaren etc..) that Do Not Have Imediately Obvious "Meaning" but Perhaps Could Simply be "Names"? (Perhaps of Famous Warriors, Predators, Regions, Old Gods etc...)?

What Did your Studies Turn up?

[qoSagh]

The only reason I didn't assume them to be klingonasse is that these names do not seem to appear on any lists of klingonasse words I have ever seen (including the ones on these forums). I know the lists are incomplete but I would have thought that some of them would have made people's lists.

Since many of the names seem to be mythological, they are of course useful to me as phrases to use in qaptaQ studies. I was more curious than anything else as to what language they might be in.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

One of the Saddest Things about klingonaase is the Simple Lack of having a "Finite" Source... Those "Dictionaries" Which I Have Found are Pretty Much Identical to the List on these Boards...

It Must Be Time for a Fan Made klingonaase Dictionary...<Chuckle>...

[qoSagh]

Oh no, I ain't falling for this one. I am already working on Heraldic rules, and Encyclopedia and a timeline. When will it stop?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Oh no, I ain't falling for this one. I am already working on Heraldic rules, and Encyclopedia and a timeline. When will it stop?

Not Until Paramount Publishes Something Well Designed and "Official" to Relieve us of the Burden...<Chuckle>...

[qoSagh]

OK, just becasue computers make this easier than it once would have been, I have found 92 ship names which are likely klingonasse. Of those 71 have english translations. Some of them do seem to have a patern, while others seem to revel in thier lack of a patern. Here is the list. First the ones that have translations:

Amar: Revenge,Arakkab: Indignant, Atropos: Invincible,
Baka Re': Pregnant,
D'aka: Mover, Dath D'lan: One Wing, D'esta Kar: Stinger, D'Gavama: Bird of Prey, Domis'avyi: Guardians of the Border,
Eakin K'nall: Healer, Eelst: Hunter, Ehhak: Venomous,
Hakask: Horrendous, Hakkarl: Vanguard, H'ban Pav: Murph,
I'rexa: Unseen Creeper,
Jurakte: Assassin,
Kahless: The Merciless One, Kas Maal: Speedstar, K'el ri'anda: Dangerous Fat Man, Kenek: The Ruler of Many, Kivord:   Tumultuous,
Klathas: pestilence, Klolode: Destruction, Klothos: Carnage, Kl'sarza: Swiftwind, Kl'xenova: Enforcer, K'nall: Mender, K'nel: Luckless,
Kom Ka'des: Winner, Komo val: Ever-Victorious, Kor'sachem: Warrior Chief, K't'agga: Painbringer, K't'alla: Truthbringer,
K'teremny: Great Slayer of Enemies, K't'inga: Bringer of Destruction, K't'inga: Great Powerful Conqueror, K't'Kara: Bringer Of Destiny,
K't'mara: Bringer Of Justice, K't'rika: Bringer Of Agony,
Lara'atan: Gull, Lar'hal: Administrator, Losu: Cold,
Make: Death, Mas to gal: Throne Seeker, Na ra'den: Carrier of Doom,
Plen Zha: Trader's Game,
Qexa: Tugboat, Qrish: The Lion of Kazh,
Raatid: Anger, Raga: Passion,
Sakar: Good Hunting, Sharug: Fire Wind, Sivista: Saber, Skelpf: Battle, Straave'eMara: Slave Of Justice,
Tabor: Powerful, Talat kh'exesta: Little Killer, Tas'esta: Pathmaker, Thanatos: Vengeance, T'h'lar: Defender, Tor'Stog: Devisor,
V'al'kon: Strong Victor, V'kar Zadan: Stingtongue, V's'talo: Watcher,
Ykir: Usurper,
Z'gal: Seeker, Z'gavasta: Great Bird, Z'gavva: Stronger Bird, Zha Mortas: Deathgame, Z'mortama: Death Stalker,

[qoSagh]

And now to keep the posts a bit shorter, the ones that don't have translations:

Dakronh, D'ama, Ekkava, Kalath, K'chjne, K'chss, Kethkin, K'mirra, Koreba, Korezima, Kozain   , K'tara, K'utuul, L'ktja, Mje'ask, Okrona, Quundar, Raxor, Riskadh, Tazhat, T'Ong

Well that was fun, wasn't it.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

With So Many One Word Titles With So Many Long Definitions I would be Inclined to "Guess" that there Could Be a Connection to Ancient Heroes or Gods? Though We Deffinitely have Seen Longer Deffinitions of Single klingonaase words, than is common in tlhIngan Hol...

[Kehlan]

Some of these names are not even Klingon.  Thanatos for example was the ancient Greek personification of Death.  Also, Klothos and Atropos are Greek personifications of the Fates.

Incidentally, what about names like Rotarran and Hegh'ta?

[Klythe]

     Kehlan, these ship names are mostly from old FASA sources that predate Star Trek 3 and the official "Kingon language", called tlhIngan Hol.  These are attributed to an earlier klingon language defined largely in John M. Ford's The Final Reflection.  This older language is called klingonaase.  Yes, the people at FASA were not linguists so they did borrow from Greek and Latin roots for some of their 'klingonaase'.  They took Ford's Kahless'te kasse(Kahless's Fist) and coined things like 'kasse mortas'(Fist of Death), filling in with terran word stems.  One of the FASA game designers collaborated with Ford(they'd share each other's notes) when writing the material, so there is some similarities, but FASA klingon is to klingonaase what Paramont Hol is to tlhIngan Hol.

    BTW, Tazhat is translated at least by implication.  Hakkral is translated as vanguard, but it is specifically the name of the piece on the Klin Zha board.  Tazhat is the name of the piece called the flier.   I suspect K'tara is a shortened or erronious k't'kara.   Many of the rest are probably names, Riskadh is obviously a more common name, but I think I've seen Kalath as well.

    Rottaran and Hegh'ta are neotrek ship names made for the show.  TV writers can't be bothered with comming up with background material that will not be shown.  These are paramount Hol, which is random stuff made up by TV writers who don't really understand thlIngan Hol.  Hegh'ta like so many words Paramount would tell you are in tlhIngan Hol but violate simple rules.  The appostrophe' representing the glottal stop, is a consonant therefore cannot appear between two other consonants gh and t.  Paramount seems to use it more as a syllable break indicator, which I must admit does make it more readable, but still both forms are very unthlIngan Hol.

[qoSagh]

Regardless of which Hol these names are in, they are Klingon. While some have definite Greek roots (or are outright Greek words) they have by virtue of being used in a (no longer) licensed published Klingon book, been made Klingon. As for klingonasse comming from Ford & FASA, I think it must be attributed to both sources. While Fords work followed much more coherent words, FASA did also publish the words as klingonasse.

I have heard Riskadh listed as Kahless's family name. I do not know if they who they claim to be, but one never knows.

[Kehlan]

Alot of words seem to break the rule about the glottal stop.  I am no linguist, although languages do interest me (and I will happily argue English spelling over American any day) so I admit I find it a useful aid as it does break up the words and make it easier for me to pronounce even if its not correct.
As for Paramount Hol - well, I am not even going there (I've read the discussion elsewhere and a wise Klingon chooses his/her battles carefully).
But does the Name Hegh'Ta actaully have meaning - obviously I recognise the "Hegh" part (Am I right in thinking it means death?) but what does the "ta" add to the meaning?

(Sorry, I'm not used to this forum yet, I can't figure out the quoting bit)

Kehlan

[Klythe]

Alot of words seem to break the rule about the glottal stop.

    w' and y' are legal exceptions.  Those two clusters plus rgh are the only consonant clusters Okrand used when creating Klingon words.  They may be other legal forms in undiscovered words, but this was a design desiion Okrand made.


    Words consisting of a single consonant and a vowel are rare forms in tlhIngan Hol, but it so happens there is a listing for ta.   (I use bold typeface for Klingon words, because klingon is always to be spoken boldly, heheh.

ta  a record    (wether this is supposed to me a written account, a high score or a vinyl disc with grooves in is not known, but probably not the disc)

Also if you like to play around with the apostrophe

ta'  as a verb it is to accomplish, as a noun an accomplishment   also
ta'  also means emporer.

A minor correction:  Hegh is a verb that means 'to die'.    I haven't seen any canon usage of this as a noun.  Although a compound form of this word Heghtay is translated as 'death ritual', that doesn't imply that there is a noun form where Hegh means death.  In their own minds it could mean 'Dying ritual', which is a lot more direct.   I could go on anout what 'death' as a noun would mean to Klingons, because it certainly will be different from what it means to hyoomins.  People who are at the 'Klingons are cool!" stage love to create ship names in the form "XXXX of Death" or "Death XXXX" to make fearsome sounding names at least to their terran fears of death.

   So Hegh ta could be 'it-dies record', perhaps a death certificate or an obituary. You could take Hegh'ta to mean the same thing, but keep in mind that this isn't an offcially sanctioned or canonical construction, so please don't try to pass it off as such.

    Kehlan, send me a PM or IM me if you need help with the forums.  To make a quote, you can just click the yellow speech ballon button and then copy and paste the text you want to paste bewteen the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags.  (If I removed the spaces form around the brackets 'and' would be set in a quote box)

FASA did also publish the words as klingonasse.

    That's my point, Paramount has published a lot of words as tlhIngan Hol.  But to be fair to Okand and Ford both, I do not automatically consider 3rd party add-ons to be part of the languages either created.   Not in the purest sense.   Clearly it is meant to be...

[Kehlan]

To make a quote, you can just click the yellow speech ballon button and then copy and paste the text you want to paste bewteen the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags. (If I removed the spaces form around the brackets 'and' would be set in a quote box)

 Hey, I think I did it.

thanks for clearing that up.  I have always liked the name Hegh'ta for a ship.

Kehlan

[qoSagh]

If we ignore the obviously misplaced apostrophe Hegh'ta could also be Heghta', or Emperor of Death. That sounds like a pretty cool ship name to me.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I have heard Riskadh listed as Kahless's family name. I do not know if they who they claim to be, but one never knows.

Some how missed this part before...

Even if it were the emperors family name, I would argue anyone claiming to be "Of his Family" regardless, since all of his decendants (Or at least the Imperial family, which I have heard refered to as the "Blooded" or those who can trace their roots to Kahless), were slaughtered by General K'Trelan as the second dynasty was brought to a close. (DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited...")

Ten years later, as the "Dark Times" ended (With the downfall of K'Trelan), the Third Dynasty was born. At this time other Klingons were alleged to have been given the names of the Imperial Family in order to foster the illusion of an unbroken line...

Okay... So that was Geeky of me I know, but it always sticks in my kraw a bit when folks make claims as grandiose as to be in the direct bloodline of Kahless... (Or any other historical Trek Character for that matter)...<Stepping down off of soap-box now>...

[Klythe]

    I think of Krenn's explaination of his taking the name Rustazh.  "They are all gone, the name was free for use."   So I wouldn't assume a memeber of the Rsikadh line is claiming to have the blood of Kahless.  And if they make such a claim based only on thier linename, they are fools.   If there are any who are of Kahless's blood, they will show it through their actions, not by their words.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Just a little note on the {'}:

It might be a glottal stop, but it is not a marker. It is an actual letter. Just as the "i" in Earth languages or the iota in (old) Greek. It simply is a letter without sound, or even "anti-sound" 8-)

Maybe te'reS needs to add something about the glottal stop to his primer (or expand what he has)...

[Klythe]

     Yes, that is correct, the apostrophe counts for all purposes like a consonant.  I hope I was clear, but if I made that mistake, I accept the correction.

     Also I would like to correct another mistake one I did make.  Hegh is listed as a noun in the addendum to the Klingon Dictionary.  It translates as said before as 'death', whether this considered to be the event of a death, the abstract concept of death, or perhaps a personification of Death, I can't say.   Only that I consider one for one translations lacking the subtle nuances of actual usage, especially wit more abstract concepts like death.