The Honored Dead

[J'Maq]

Hypothetical situation: A female Klingon warrior--pregnant/heavy with child--is forced to defend herself and her home from foreign invaders,during a time of war. Although with child, she arms herself
and kills many of her enemies before she and her unborn child are slain. My question is: if the
woman ascends to Sto-vo-kor--what is the fate of her unborn child? Does the child too have
a place among the honored? If so, is the child transformed into an adult? Does it remain an
infant? What are your thoughts on this, my friends?

[ter'eS]

It would depend on whether Klingons consider the unborn to be persons or
not (and I'm not about to get into that debate  ).

[Kesvirit]

You show good judgement, teresh.

But whether or not the dead fetus is a person is immaterial. Admittance to Stovo’kor isn’t a given. It must be earned, though opinions vary on what those criteria are (leading an honorable life, performing extraordinary deeds, etc.)

Since a fetus is unable to accomplish such things, it would not be joining its mother in Stovo’kor. Unless it could be rescued still living from its dead mother’s womb, it would be part of the dead shell of its mother and disposed of accordingly. (See the Disposal of the Dead thread for thoughts on what constitutes “accordingly”.)

[J'Maq]

It is my sincere desire to gather information on the topic in order to
better serve a current Klingon project that I am working on.
It has been implied (not on this forum) that my intentions are politically motivated,
framing the issue of pro choice/pro life within the context
of the Klingon mythos. That is completely false. I encourage you to broaden your perspective on the subject and not succumb to narrow minded perceptions that only cause dissension/hostility. Thank you.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Editors Note: What Follows Was Cut and Pasted from My Answer to the Same Question on Another Board...


J'Mak,

I Hear Your Question, And although it is Difficult to Seperate "Apparent" similarities between "Real World" Social Politics, and the Beliefs of Fans in Character, I Do think that the Question is Legitimate.

Circumstanitaly The Catholic Church is Currently Deliberating on a Similar Question, Which is Based on a Child Who Passes without Having been Baptaized. Their Question to Answer is Rather this Child Would Automatically Go To Hell (Or Best Case, the Catholic Created Limbo)... Since it is a Clear Doctrine Within that Religion that A Person MUST be Baptized to Enter Heaven...

Within Klingon Terms it is Less Clear, Because there are No Canon Examples of a Soul, Though Reincarnation Does Not Seem to Exist. Hence Such a Child Would Not be Reborn as another Person.

However as the meycha Suggests, it seems Unlikely that Such an Infant would Go to Grethor, because there is No Dishonor Involved. (At Least on the Part of the Child or Mother)...

"IF" Sto-Vo-Kor and the Black Fleet are Different Places/Destinations for the Dead, (Which the chIrgh Supports Incidentaly), Then it Is Clear to Me that the Child Would NOT Serve in the Black Fleet, Since they Would Not Be able to Fight for themselves... And Had Not Established themselves as a Warrior.

This Pretty Much Leaves Sto-Vo-Kor for the Preborn Infant if it were on its Own.

I Would However Suggest, that the Mother Would Be Eligable to Serve in the Black Fleet and Might Choose rather she Wished to Serve there, With Her Child Still in Her Afterlife Womb, or Remain with the Child In Sto-Vo-Kor. NOT an Enviable Position, to Have to Make such a Choice.

Regardless, this Child Would, According to the Doctrine of the chIrgh, Continue to Develop and Eventaully Be Born in Sto-Vo-Kor. From there they Would Mature until Reaching Adulthood, But Would Not Age Beyond that.

Now I Should add that it is Also Taught within the chIrgh that Reaching Sto-Vo-Kor is not an End in Itself. Once There a Klingon Must Continue to be Honoarable or Risk being Cast out, so At Some Point this Child Would Become Self Aware enough to Make Choices and Decisions, the Results of Which Could Still g'day't them.

Does this Help?

[J'Maq]

Excellent analysis, Abbot Nej vIt. That is precisely what I was looking for, when I posted the topic. Thank you for your insight. It has indeed helped me.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

maj!

A Klingon Cleric Has Gotta' Be Good For Something...<Smirk>... Glad I Could Help...

[voraq]

Unless it could be rescued still living from its dead mother’s womb, it would be part of the dead shell of its mother and disposed of accordingly.

If the remains of an unborn infant are considered part of the mothers dead shell, it would seem to me that the unborn child would be considered part of the mother until the time of birth when it takes control of its own existance (in that is must breath and eat on its own). 

If this is the case then when the mother died, and the child was as yet unborn, I believe that the mother and the unborn child would be seen as one being, and where the mother was admitted the unborn child was also admitted.

IT seems to me that a child at an unborn stage would not have taken life into its own hands and is dependant on the mother 100% for everything.  As opposed to a living infant who has all the independant bodily systems and choses when or when not to eat. 

I think the question of where the child would go would be more consequential were the scenario: The mother was holding her infant when she was attacked and her attacker killed them both.

Here the child is a seperate being in full control of his or her own life, where as while in the womb the child is still developing and (if Klingon child bearing is anything like Terran) has its circulatory and digestive system fully integrated with the mothers.  What the mother eats the child get, what blood conditions the mother has the child also has, ect...

 I feel that the child (in J'Maqs scenario) would be seen as unable to exist without that full integration with its mother and at the time of death it would not be considered as independant because of that circumstance.

[Klythe]

    There is much presuming of how a child, unborn or otherwise would be considered, and so far no mention of who is considering.   How can you know what one would consider, if you do not consider who is doing the considering?

    So far we have not been exposed to any 'judging' figure in the Klingon mythology.

     We have Kotar, who like the Chairon the Ferryman of the Styx transports the dead to the next life.  To my understanding Chairon did not judge, he only serviced one destination, Hades.   But if it is Kotar, he would not cause one beating Klingon heart to be sundered from another.  The child (born or not in my arrogant opinion) would share in the mother's destiny.

     Perhaps Kotar has some say, but not total say.   Perhaps he must continually fight and compete for his passengers. There is the Guardian of Grethor, who guards the dishonored.  As niether Klingon was dishonored,the Feklhr would have no claim on either of thier souls.

    If there are gods, they do not help, and justice belongs to the strong.  But what is done under The Naked Stars is remembered.   The Naked Stars would be a good fit for a judger of souls.   The unborn and also the child who had never stepped outside by their own will) is not seen by the naked stars.  If their souls remained joined, the child would again remain with it's mother. If their souls have seperated, the stars would have nothing to say of the unborn.  This presents many possibilites upon which we can only speculate.  The soul might be free to roam the current world.  Or perhaps there is a default realm.  Perhaps all klingons are born to honor and glory and they must live their lives to add to it.  Perhaps Limbo, prehaps rebirth to this universe or a similar one.

    I can only speculate about Durgath, Cymele, Kahless, or pretty much any of the other figures of Klingon Mythology.   But honestly, if you ask me what I thought your average klingon would respond to the question...  I really don't think many Klingons would care, unless they were relatives of the child, or clerics.   It just doesn't make a very good story, so the child is likely not going to be considered at all, beyond a further glory of the mother.

[qoSagh]

I also answered this elsewhere, but it is good to see this perspective, as I had not thought of the "empty husk" aspect of the unborn child. Although knowing that a body is considered an empty husk, may just be that canon source for a Klingon soul (just not in so many words) as if the husk is empty, then it must have been filled with something at one time.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Klythe,

I Like Your Points about "Who" Judges these Things... At One Time it Might have Been the Gods, but Since then these Mortal Quandries Must be Answered by The Klingons Who Remain and Who have Gone Before... Sto-Vo-Kor, Like the Black Fleet is Not a "Spirit" Realm so Much as Tactile Afterlife Existences, (At least to Those who are there, Perhaps somehow Extra-dimensional?), so it Could be At least Suggested that Those Who Have Honor and Have Gone Before may well have a Say in Such Matters as well...

And You are Right, this is Just the Sort of things that a Priest might Find of Interest...<Grin>...

The Tradition of the Death Howl Certainly Suggests Further that The Fallen Can be Made aware of things Taking place in the Prime Material World in Some way or Another... And Perhaps qoSagh is right that Paramount Did Side Step the "Soul" Question but leave us a Hint as Well... So I will have to Think on the Canon Soul Comment Further...

[Kehlan]

Circumstanitaly The Catholic Church is Currently Deliberating on a Similar Question, Which is Based on a Child Who Passes without Having been Baptaized. Their Question to Answer is Rather this Child Would Automatically Go To Hell (Or Best Case, the Catholic Created Limbo)... Since it is a Clear Doctrine Within that Religion that A Person MUST be Baptized to Enter Heaven...

No, its not actually.  The idea of Limbo was discredited long before I ever learned about it at school, where we were told about it as something the church used to believe.  Curiously it was never actually made doctrine and therefore was never more than an issue of conscience.
The whole point of the idea of Limbo was that an unborn child is innnocent and therefore could NOT go to Hell, however due to it still having original sin, it could not go to heaven either.  So they came up with Limbo.  It is no longer part of the church's teaching and has not been for at least 20 years.

[El Payaso Malo]

I am surprised no one mentioned that one can perform great deeds of valor in order to rescue a fallen dishonered family member from the pit, or at least I remember hearing on the Next Generation. Didn't Kahless himself travel to the underworld to rescue his dishonored brother Morath?

[qoSagh]

I do hate to use other genres to make the point but there is one bit that I realized we didn't really expound on. If the mother is pregnant when she dies and the child is not delivered post mortem, does she go to the afterlife perpetually pregnant? If this is the case, then the outcome of the child is not an issue as it remains eternally a fetus and goes wherever the mother does just not as a separate independent being.

Now the other genre I was thinking of are the vampires of the HBO series True Blood. One female character is turned into a vampire while still a virgin. Despite loosing her virginity later, she continuously heals and remains eternally virginal in her undead existence. If we see undead as being a sort of after life, this vampiric example may just help illustrate the Klingon answer.

[El Payaso Malo]

That actually makes me wonder about pregnant Borg.

[qurgh_]

I do hate to use other genres to make the point but there is one bit that I realized we didn't really expound on. If the mother is pregnant when she dies and the child is not delivered post mortem, does she go to the afterlife perpetually pregnant? If this is the case, then the outcome of the child is not an issue as it remains eternally a fetus and goes wherever the mother does just not as a separate independent being.

Now the other genre I was thinking of are the vampires of the HBO series True Blood. One female character is turned into a vampire while still a virgin. Despite loosing her virginity later, she continuously heals and remains eternally virginal in her undead existence. If we see undead as being a sort of after life, this vampiric example may just help illustrate the Klingon answer.

No, since you don't go to an afterlife in your current biological form. The body is just a life-support system. If the energy that makes up your "soul" is able to overcome death then that energy simply travels to wherever "souls" go to (heaven, light, closeness to God, etc). The energy that makes up the baby's "soul" will probably not be sufficient to overcome death and dissipates. This would be synonymous with going to hell (absence of light, distance from God, etc).

In Klingon terms, I would say that if the mother lived a life sufficient to allow her to travel to Sto-vo-kor then her "soul" would travel there. Her baby would die soon after, if not rescued, and it's "soul" would go to Grethor. A post-Death ritual could be performed by the living, but I don't think it would do any good since the energy that made up the baby's "soul" would have already dissipated.

[El Payaso Malo]

In Klingon terms, I would say that if the mother lived a life sufficient to allow her to travel to Sto-vo-kor then her "soul" would travel there. Her baby would die soon after, if not rescued, and it's "soul" would go to Grethor. A post-Death ritual could be performed by the living, but I don't think it would do any good since the energy that made up the baby's "soul" would have already dissipated.

The soul dissapates? As in, ceases to exist? I think the Grethor possibilty is more likely, I think ceasing to exist is a little much.

[qurgh_]

The soul dissapates? As in, ceases to exist? I think the Grethor possibilty is more likely, I think ceasing to exist is a little much.

Yes, ceases to exist.

How is Grethor more likely? How is an infinity massive plane that contains billions upon billions of souls existing in some sort of semi-life and which is ruled over by a creature that was created by some pre-Klingon Empire culture more probably than energy simply being expended and then running out?

Grethor and Sto-vo-kor were concepts created by Klingons at some point in their past, to describes states of existence after death. It's possibly some remnant of a religion that was destroyed long in the past. That religion's destruction is a possible source for the "death of the gods" story.

I can completely understand placing these labels on the concepts of eternal life/eternal death, but I don't agree with the common visualization of these places as being similar to this existence. Although I have no issue with using metaphorical places to represent these places in order to encourage the behavior of adherents, as long as it's understood this is the case. I would like to believe that the Klingons understand this metaphor.

[El Payaso Malo]

The soul dissapates? As in, ceases to exist? I think the Grethor possibilty is more likely, I think ceasing to exist is a little much.

Yes, ceases to exist.

How is Grethor more likely? How is an infinity massive plane that contains billions upon billions of souls existing in some sort of semi-life and which is ruled over by a creature that was created by some pre-Klingon Empire culture more probably than energy simply being expended and then running out?

Grethor and Sto-vo-kor were concepts created by Klingons at some point in their past, to describes states of existence after death. It's possibly some remnant of a religion that was destroyed long in the past. That religion's destruction is a possible source for the "death of the gods" story.

I can completely understand placing these labels on the concepts of eternal life/eternal death, but I don't agree with the common visualization of these places as being similar to this existence. Although I have no issue with using metaphorical places to represent these places in order to encourage the behavior of adherents, as long as it's understood this is the case. I would like to believe that the Klingons understand this metaphor.

Klingons seem pretty Hu'tegh devout to me. They don't seem the type to just follow what is believed to be untrue, considering their disdain for dishonesty and preference for straight forwardness. But I was speaking in a hypothetical sense, speculating what Klingon belief actually is, since we weren't given a scripture for reference on all possible scenarios.