Types of Honor, quv and batlh.

[Klythe]

I meant to post this before, and forgot about it, and then it came up in the chat, and then there was confusion about what I meant by 'honor' in the Subordination/submission rituals topic.   So I decided I really needed to bring it up for discussion.


     The quarterly journal of the KLI the HolQeD  (vol 12, num 3, page 9), Maltz has this to say about the difference between quv and batlh "It is [a klingon matter], you will not understand".   The interviewer further reported.

     ...quv was a sort of personal honor, the kind over which, by one's behavior, one has some control.  This sort of honor is earned, can be bestowed on one, and is associated with reputation, dignity and respect.   batlh on the other hand, is a grander, more general, more philosophical concept, associated with integrity, rectitude, scruples, and principles.  Unfortunately he didn't give any examples or elaborate any further.   He did add, however, that neither ... was the same as pop, usually translated as reward but sometimes translated as honor in the sense of token of esteem, that is, formal recognition of an accomplishment or accomplishments.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

So If I am Understanding this Correctly the Distinctions would go somthing like this:

quv is VERY Personal, and would be Attributed as a Characteristic of the Individual. "Kahless was an Honorable Man."

batlh is more Encompassing of the Larger Culture. "Klingon Society Values and Promotes the Ideal of Honor".

While pop would be used to Describe a Specific Achievement or Situation. "Kor and His Crew were the First Klingons to recieve the Honor of Being Awarded the Coveted E.U.C. (Elite Unit Citation)".

Am I Getting the Differences? And if so, Gramatically in tlhIngan Hol, How would each of these Sentances be Written?

[qoSagh]

I think I get the basic concept. Most of my language work in Hol was done witht he BLUE dictionary. I do own a copy of the White one, which is also now dogeared, and a copy of KGT, but my roots are with a much older vocabulary. What with all that has come out of the KLI sources, and several new books, there really needs to be a third edition.

Either way, I think the example of quv as Kahless was an Honorable Man is a little off. If quv is that personal, I think a better example of personal honor might be "Kang, I am honored to fight along side of you" I think the Kahless example is a bit too close to batlh, to be all that different.

I would also think that pop as a reward probably exists because the Klingons do not want to confuse such a tangible thing with the overall concept of honor, by using the same word for different ideas.

Despite the fact that two words batlh and quv are both translated as honor, they seem to be very different concepts. I still go with the theory that a better word (at least in english) would be loyalty or trust.

[Klythe]

     But we have words for loyalty(matlh) and trust (voq). 

     It is a Klingon matter, and Maltz isn't forthcomming with the answers.  So we will have to do our best to interpret what he did say.   As far as I can tell the difference is that quv is your reputation, as a great warrior you would have much quv if everyone knows your name and your fighting ability so long as you aren't actively dishonorable, people will respect you for your quv.  On the other hand, even if no one has heard of you, but you follow every rule, then you display batlh, even though you haven't earned the quv to sit at the head of the table.

    We can look at canon phrases that involve quv and batlh and see how this plays out...

batlh Daqawlu'taH  You will be remembered with honor   You will be remembered for your virtue.  (Valkis was not famous when she died, and her sacrifice would never be known beyong Kruge and his bridge crew.)

[Abbot Nej vIt]

So in that Deffinition, quv Takes Social Priority, while batlh takes Cultural Priority... (I Think we are Saying Very Similar Things here, or at least Meaning them)...

QoSagh,

In My Example, I Was Describing the "Reputation" (Using Klythe's word), For Being Honorable that QeylIS is Known For... As Opposed to The Ideals Which Every Klingon Is taught to Respect/Act upon... Not All Klingons are Honorable, Or Known for Being that way However...

[qoSagh]

An interesting aside to this is that even though the KLI is willing to attribute much of their research to interviews with the fictional character Maltz, they do not treat themselves as tlhIngan scholars, but as humans scholars. Otherwise there would be nothing that would be a Klingon matter, that we would not be expected to understand.

[Klythe]

I mentioned in a translation request thread that there were two phrases involving having no honor in The Klingon Way.   They are side by side on pages 59-61.

The Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor
quv Hutlh HoHbogh tlhIngan 'ach qabDaj 'angbe'bogh

and

Only and enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle.
'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH

    Notably both use quv for the sort of honor that is lacking.


    Finally, here is an excellent quote to analyse.  It has both quv and batlh in it.

One does not achieve honor while acting dishonorably.
batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'   
dishonor act-[indef_subject][continous][while]  reputation achieve-not[indef_subject]

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Almost like a Noun to Verb thing?

Batlh being Some "Thing" that one Can not Get While being (Acting) Dishonorable?

[Klythe]

*clears throat*  quv is something you cannot earn while behaving un-batlh.   batlh does not appear to be a thing you gain get at all, it may not even be a thing, as much as a state of being...  So far, the phrases I've found indicate that it is something actions and memories can be.  Again, gaining and losing, having and lacking are all things that apply to quv.

    I don't know if a person can be batlh or not.  Such a claim may imply that the person is Honor incarnate, and that would be far too high of praise for anyone still alive.   What if they are quite the opposite, but no one has discovered their dishonorable acts?  They would have much quv, but they still do un-batlh acts when not even the naked stars are looking.   If you were to say a person  is batlh, assuming that makes sense, you would be risking your on quv should the person you praised be discovered acting less than batlh.

[Kash]

So, batlh is the measuring stick one's quv is compared to, perhaps?