klingonaase: How do you pronounce "kuve"?

[Klythe]

This came up in our weekly chat...   The last time I mentioned it on the boards I found myself needing to do a Submission ritual to avoid an unnecessary challenge.   I'll attempt to be more careful this time.

    The two most popular pronunciations I've heard are reading the word as if it was an English word [KOOV] and [KOO vey].  Most people who pronounce [KOO VEY] explain it is because Klingon has no silent E's.   First off, the word is not tlhIngan Hol.  it's in klingonaase which we do not have an official alphabet for.  Further I respond, Klingon(any Klingon language) doesn't have an E's at all.  They have some other glyph or glyphs that express the 'eh' sound.  We don't have any canon sources for any Klingon writing system, although the KLI has a semi-official preference for a particular representation of the pIqaD used to write thlIngan Hol.   

   Therefore, I would argue that what we have is a transliteration, an attempt to spell a foreign word using your own alphabet.  In this case, English phonology (think spelling rules, if you are a pakled) apply.

    Another question that should be asked is that if you pronounce "kuve" as [KOO vey], how do you pronounce kuvei  it's plural?   I think I have pronounced the plural as others pronounce the singular, on the basis of the transliteration argument above.   I suppose if I assumed klingonaase was a regular language (Or with fewer irregular forms than English) then the plural should instead be pronounced the same as I pronounce the singular form with a long 'e' attached at the end, like  [KOOV ee]...

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Keeping the Above Arguments in Mind, Is it Possible that Kuve Could be Both Singular and Plural? (Like Fish Used to be?)

In any Event, If we were to Attempt a 'hol' spelling, might the Word Still be Kuve (Koov ea) the ea being the E sound in Estimate?

Or Pehaps more Approriately Q'uve?

[Klythe]

    "Q'uve" is not phonetically legal, and if it were it'd still be wrong.  The ' is a consonant, and can only form a consonant cluster after a 'y' or a 'w'. A generous Klingon speaker might try to render it as three syllables [kr 'OOV 'eh].  Omit the illegal apostrophe, and change the 'Q' for a 'q' because you want /k/ instead of /kr/, and you get quve [KOO veh] with your short 'e' as in the first sound in 'estimate' or 'get', which is an very unusual word with two unterminated vowels, but not illegal.

    I think the more probable form a thlIngan Hol-speaker would hear [KOOV eh] as  what we came up with in the thread, quv'e' even though it sound is indistinguishable from is quv 'e', be-honored previous-topic,  meaning something like "That last topic is an honorable one"...  Though I'm not sure if topics can have honor/   Maybe if the Klingons are speaking metaphorically of topics as if they were people, as sometimes we do. in poltics "That issue has legs" means it is a powerful and enduring topic that "can go places".

    I'm confused why you want to make this a thlIngan Hol word, when toywI' has the same connotative meaning.   If you want the denotative meaning, just use kuve as a word raided from another language. 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Klythe Give me some Credit? It is Not a Matter of "Wanting" to Make this a tlhIngan hol Word as much as Attempting to Continue the Discussion and perhaps learn a little more about the Linguistics here...

Anyway, in the Chat what Brought this up was the Pronunciation... If we are "Borrowing" the Word from another Language (Klingonaase), Then there is Nothing to Suggest that it is Not Pronounced Koo vey... Which as I understood it everyone wanted to Dismiss because of the tlhIngan hol Rules about the (e) sound on the end of Kuve... Now admittedly I have Never Heard John Ford Discuss this so it Could be a Silent e I Guess...

As Far as toy'wI' being Interchangable with Kuve I Do not See it as the Same at all... Kuve basically Means Servile, toy'wI' (At least as I Understand it, and As It is Used for the Library), Means One who Serves (Those Who Serve?) It is Possible to Serve a Cause, Mission, Purpose whatever without being Servile...

[Klythe]

    Ah, good.  I was just confused as to why the Hol spelling was an issue.

    Unlike the highly ambiguous nature of the English verb 'to serve' (You can also serve a meal, a tennis ball, computer files or a court document),  we are fortunate enough that the Klingon dictionary specifies that toy' is to serve (a master) and that toy'wI' is a servant.  toy'wI' doesn't need to appear at all, since the rule is present to decompose it to "one who serves", but it is listed specifically as servant, while most other verbwI's are not listed. 

    I think we are fortunate because there are other words are not so clear as to which  of the words meanings apply and which don't.  This is my biggest disappointment with TKD or any alien language dictionary that provides only one word translations.

    If that weren't the case I'd have to resort to a line from TFR, "I serve the empire, I am not the Emperor's servant".   This neatly shows that a verb and it's noun form can be different.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

toywI' doesn't need to appear at all, since the rule is present to decompose it to "one who serves", but it is listed specifically as servant, while most other verbwI's are not listed. 

   I think we are fortunate because there are other words are not so clear as to which  of the words meanings apply and which don't.  This is my biggest disappointment with TKD or any alien language dictionary that provides only one word translations.

   If that weren't the case I'd have to resort to a line from TFR, "I serve the empire, I am not the Emperor's servant".   This neatly shows that a verb and it's noun form can be different.

Would you mind Going into this a little bit Deeper? In What Context are you Suggesting that  toywI' Need not Appear at all? (Also, is my Spelling of  toy'wI' In Error)?

[Klythe]

Oops.  I corrected it. toy'wI' is correct...  One of the many things I need to look into is if we can add some of the most often used jargon and some Klingon vocabulary into the spell checker.   Could be a pipe dream, but...  Something I'd like to check into once other issues are taken care of.

    Uh, sorry I was not clear...  I shouldn't have tried to post a reply before work.  Anyway, toy'wI' is listed in TKD, while say... chopwI'(one who bites)  is not.   If toy'wI' merely meant "one who serves", then it wouldn't need to be listed in the dictionary, because we know what -wI' does to verbs.   toy'wI' does need to appear in sentences when it is used.  I think I needed to use a more theoretical case.  I should have said something like "toy'wI' would not need to apeear in the dictionary at all, if that was all it meant.  The suffix would normally be enough to give it the meaning of 'One who serves'."   

    Same with the word for 'slave' toy'wI''a'.  toy' -wI' and 'a' each have their own entries, but when they are put together this way, the word has a more specific meaning that merely the sum of the parts.   toy'wI''a' is not one who serves beyond service(a hard worker?), it is a slave, because it is listend as a slave ( in Klingon for the Galactic Traveller).

[qoSagh]

I have heard both [koov] and [koo vay] used as well as a pronunciation that I would characterize as about half way between [koo veh] and [koo vuh]. Without a guide to work from, this like much of klingonaase is lost to us. I think, given the plural, that [koov] is the most sensible of the options, although I think for those as old as me [koo vay] may be a hard habbit to break.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Klythe,

Unfortunately there are Two Issues Here For me... The First is that I Do Not (Nor have I Ever), Own(ed) the KGT... I Have Two Copies of the TKD, One is a "First" Edition (1985), which is all that I Had to Work with For Years, and What I Suppose is the 2nd Edition, (1992), Which I Actually only Started Using Fairly Recently... Only the 2nd Eddition has (In The Addendum) the Listing of toy'wI''a'... And Neither have "Exactly the Term that I Needed to Mean One Who Serves... (In the Non-servile Sense)... Now I am Inclined to think that-that was More Likely Circumstanial then anything else... In Other Words Okrand Never Needed to Distinguish these Finer Points... BUT In my Case Nothing Else really Makes More Sense for a Service Oriented Clergy... So Perhaps I am Overly Concious of Being Careful about Assuming that My Order is Named "The Dilligent Kuve"...<Smirk>...

qoSagh,

As I have Previously Stated I Think that one of the Traps we are Falling into here is Assumeing that tlhIngan Hol Pronunciation Rules Apply to Klingonaase'...


Back on Topic,

So There are According to Okrand Different Dialects at the Very Least, and Possibly (Most Likely) Wholey Different, (Unique), Languages Within the Empire... AND I would Even Point out Further that Klingonaase' was Predominately Seen/Heard in TOS era (And Pronounced Kling-o-nee) And Then it was Spoken by The Genetically Altered Klingons... We Did Not See any tlhIngan Hol Spoken until The Films, and even then Not Really until ST III: TSFS... And then By the Imperials... Is It Possible that Klingonaase' Might Represent a "Class" Language of Some Sort?

We Certainly See that Class Dialects Within a Culture that has a Primary or First Language (Such as English in America), also have Regional Dialects Which in Turn have their own Pronunciation Rules... Rather these are "Leagal" (In Terms of Grammer and Diction) or Not, They are Follwed within that Region or Within a Sub-culture... (Just Try Going to Kentucky and Pronouncing Louisville "Properly" if you want an Example...<Grin>...)

Anyway, my Point is, that Regardless of the tlhIngan Hol Linguistic Rules for Pronouncing a Word like Kuve, it would be "Correct" to Pronounce it the Way that it is Pronounced by those who Use the Term... We as Role-players and Fans of the Klin Culture Basically Speak/Use a Pigeonized Slang that is Composed of English, tlhIngan Hol AND Klingonaase, Substituting Words, Phrases and Concepts From Each as it "Seems" Appropriate... So as an Example, Those With Whom I have Gamed For Years, (And Many Whom I Have Met More Recently), Have Tended to Pronounce Kuve as Koo vey... Does that make it Wrong because there is No Silent e sound in tlhIngan Hol? My Answer is No. It is Not Wrong, but in my Above Posting about The Pronunciation of the e Sound in the Hol, I think that Someone who Was Raised Speaking The Current First language of the Empire would Pronounce it with the More Traditional Sounds of those Diction Rules that they would be Familiar with. Thus Pronouncing Kuve as Koov-eh...

Now as I have Pointed out in the Past I am Not, Nor have I ever been a Linguist, However my own Spoken Diction of English is Fairly Precise. I Have Lived All over the United States, From Illinois to Hawaii to California to Texas to Kentucky to Florida. And I Have Seen First Hand that Regional Dialects have their own Accepted Rules, and Further I have seen that the Estimation of "Correct" English Varies depending on the Local Use of a Given Word... This Does not Necessarily make those Pronunciations "Correct" in the Grammatical Sense, but they are Recognized and used as Such. So by this Argument it is deffinately Possible, that Both Koov AND Koo-vey Could be Used and Understood by those that were Familiar with One or the Other...