KLAW / 4th Fleet split

[qoSagh]

Isn't differentiating K.L.A.W. and K.L.A.W. - 4th Fleet kind of a moot point now? Admiral Korghas hasn't been heard from in many years, I had even heard rumors of his (real) death but those may not have even been true. Either way the 4th Fleet has gone way beyond where ever the last known status of it's parent organization was. I would think that the only K.L.A.W. known by most in Klindom (except for old folks, like me) would be the 4th Fleet.

[Kesvirit]

qoSagh:  Isn't differentiating K.L.A.W. and K.L.A.W. - 4th Fleet kind of a moot point now?...

I cannot say, never having been involved in live-and-in-person Klindom and living far from the domains of both organizations. In such areas I must count on other Klinfolk for information. I encourage anyone with an interest in such topics to persue them in the General section for the edification of other online-onlies and those who have come into Klindom since that time.

-=- Kesvirit

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Isn't differentiating K.L.A.W. and K.L.A.W. - 4th Fleet kind of a moot point now? Admiral Korghas hasn't been heard from in many years, I had even heard rumors of his (real) death but those may not have even been true. Either way the 4th Fleet has gone way beyond where ever the last known status of it's parent organization was. I would think that the only K.L.A.W. known by most in Klindom (except for old folks, like me) would be the 4th Fleet.

The RL Significance is that we are Legally K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet Now as opposed to being Known as KLAW... I Have Heard that there is Still a Contigent of KLAW in New York, though the Last I Heard of them was several Years Ago... And Of Course there are the Political Differences which No one ever Seems to Forget... The KLAW/KAG Issues of the Past were Never Really 4th Fleets, Though having Kept the K.L.A.W. part of the Name has Set us up for Club Bashing at times... So I Like to Differentiate the Clubs For that reason as Much as any... As to the Current Status of The "Original" KLAW, I Really can not say, though the Image of the Past seems to Haunt us Even Now... Course we are Only the Second Generation...<Smirk>...

[qoSagh]

OK, Legalaities being what they are, I see your point. Last I heard of K.L.A.W. in Long Island was when they lost 3/4 of thier command staff to the 11th I.K.E.F. Khorgas went on to form one ofthe many clubs called the Imperial Klingon Navy, which plumeted like the proverbial lead baloon. Oddly enough, I was one of the guest mediators who helped shut down what was left of the 11th I.K.E.F. a few years later when the last of the three founders left and the only remaining officer had done his best to run it into the ground.

I would guess that if there is anyone in New York (or elsewhere) still calling themselves K.L.A.W. they are the remainders of former fleets. I have never come across any that flourished the way the 4th Fleet did. I would have to say that is a testiment to your line brother, Admiral Khur. From what I know, he broke off the 4th Fleet, BEFORE the troubles up here so your fleet bears little connection to whatever remnants there may be around these parts.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Yes When (Then Admiral) Khur Established 4th Fleet it was only after repeated attempts to Reconcile Differences with the New York Folks. By the Time I was Recruited (By the Admiral), KLAW was Going Strong here in Florida, but we were Not "Officially" 4th Fleet Yet... It was another year or So Before we Amended our Charter as a Non-profit Organization and Reregistered with the State of Florida With the 4th Fleet Title and the Distinction of Putting the Periods after Each Letter in KLAW... In Other Words the Registered Club Name Is K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet.

The Admiral, went on to Become The Legions Chief Ambassador (Then Consul General Khur), When General MalaH zantai-Gholjub Took Over the Fleet (Maybe '96?)... The General Served For 6 years roughly, and Had the Distinction of Being the First Marine (To my Knowledge) to Lead any Variant of KLAW, Before Turning things Over to the Current Leader of the 4th Fleet Admiral KurDaj zantai-Juriss... My Cousin (Line Brother), Khur Currently Holds the Title Venerable, and is the Clergies Highest Ranking Member... (Within 4th Fleet)... He is Doing well, and I Gamed with the Lad a Few Weeks ago...

I Guess this would be a Brief Update on this Corner of the Empires History...<Chuckle>...

[qoSagh]

I've been told that I met Khur, when he lived up here. The timing is right, but I don't remember meeting him. That was of course during the fan wars and him being K.L.A.W. and my being Karizan at the time, any meeting would have been strained. I remember reading an old K.L.A.W. handbook that divided the entire worlds into numbered fleets, I guess Korghas wanted to be prepared if he got any applications from Paris or Cairo. That listed the 4th fleet as your area. Despite your Fleets success, I always thought it a bit far reaching and premature to plan for that large a membership, especially knowing how fragmented Klingon fandom is and how many competing clubs there are out there.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Would enjoy Seeing this Fleet Manifest, I Did not Even Know such an Animal Existed... But it may Go far in Explaining Why Our Club Accepts on Principle that the Empire is MUCH larger than our own Little Corner.

We Recognize Other Clubs as Being "Legitimate" Parts of the Cannon Universe, Which is why we do Not Presume to Elect our Own Chancelors or Claim To Be Directly Connected to the High Council. I Know that Other Clubs see it Differently, but Unless the Club is Based in another Time Line it Does not Make Sense to Have a Chancellor For Instance when it Could Interfer with the Larger Trek Story Arc.

As to the Karizan Empire, I Really Know Little of it Except that I Have heard Claims that it was The "Original" Klingon Club (Though I Also Seem to Recall Another Group, Maybe Klingon Strike Force? Claiming a Similar Honor).

I Also Remember an Article from the Village Voice being Circulated Some Time After I First Joined KLAW (Here in Florida), that may not Have Been New at that Point, that Mentioned a "Role-play" Disolving of An Aliance Between the Clubs... I Have Seen Versions of that Original Article Reprinted a Few Times... Anyway, there seemed to be something of a "Viking" Flair to the Ceremony that was reported to have Taken Place... Where you a part of the Club at that Time...? (Seems like it was Early 90's)... But I Think That was well After Khur had Come Southways...

[qoSagh]

I was a part of the club at that time. My wife (before we were married) and I were two of the Karizans in the photo shoot that went into the issue. The front cover was actually two of the founding members of the 11th I.K.E.F. but if memory serves they may have still been in K.L.A.W. at the time. As a matter of fact one of my Klingon goals was to be able to enter a room like K.L.A.W.'s founder Korghas was said to in that article. He was recovering from a stroke at the time, so could not wear a costume and walked with a cane, yet the reported referred to him as  "emanating Klingon" as he entered the room. I always tried for that effect, at the time I wanted people to know I was Klingon even when I didn't look it.

I agree that each club is part of the larger empire. If you think about the number of individual units that make up the U.S. Military, and then remember how much larger a force would be needed for a multi-planet empire, this makes much more sense than having 10 different high councils running around. This also explains how it is possible to meet other high ranking Klingons who are not in your chain of command.

I'm not sure if I can find the old K.L.A.W. stuff, but there is a chance, as my wife was a member before she was a Karizan. There may be stuff in my storage unit (we're both packrats and rarely throw out stuff like that).

The viking flair was the main house of the Karizans the theld azhir, a Norse/Klingon line headed by K'Thor. For those that know the Norse mythology, that is why the Grand meycha took vynir (sp) as his line name, when the qaptaQ was founded. I'd have to reread the article to see which role-play event they were talking about, as in those days there were many treaties made and broken, almost too many to count. Years later I would be part of a much more successful attempt of inter club cooperation, that actually was dissolved because it worked too well.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

qoSagh,

Thanks for the Information... I Still have Not Read through all of the Threads (Many Long Dorment), on these Boards So this may already have been Attempted, but I am Curious if Anyone has set Up a Specific Thread for Klindom History? Sort of a Family Tree of the Various Clubs? It might be Interesting to See Which ones Sprang from Where and When... It may be "Assumed" that Everyone Knows this Stuff, But I Learn New Stuff about it Daily...<Grin>...

[qoSagh]

It's been covered in various personal histories, and corrected by some. I know a little bit of what came before me, but really only know first hand the last 15 years or so in the Northeast. My one and only trip out to Dover was right after the KAG/Empire split, and I think KSF picked up a few chapters from that as well. Even though I was a Karizan, I really don't know much about the early history. I have heard two versions, but basically I think the club started somewhere out in the Chicago area. As for who was first, I think that will be lost to the sands of time, as more than one club is likely to claim that honor.

One of the problems that will come up is different clubs with the same names. I know of at least two different Imperial Klingon Navy clubs. Groups names taken from FASA like I.K.E.F. or from the canon like K.D.F. are, despite paraborg's best attempts very close to public domain so are wide open to independant fan clubs. Then we will have to sort out revisionist history accounts. Actually that sounds like a good job for a Librarian, I wonder where we could find one of them?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

It would be an Excellent Project for the Library... Interestingly Few Sites that I have Found out there Have Club Histories Listed... (Though Fictional Histories Abound...<Chuckle>...)

[Krag Epetai KTaj]

The Admiral ..You know...Keeper of the stars and such Grand Admiral Korghas Epetia Remeous Turned his back on hes crew and the Empire Years ago For The sca Type organization Dragon Wynd. Leaving these who followed for 13 years  , more and less to drift.

Lord Admiral Krag Epetai K'Taj
Commander of The I.K.V. Como'Val
Long island , NY

Isn't differentiating K.L.A.W. and K.L.A.W. - 4th Fleet kind of a moot point now? Admiral Korghas hasn't been heard from in many years, I had even heard rumors of his (real) death but those may not have even been true. Either way the 4th Fleet has gone way beyond where ever the last known status of it's parent organization was. I would think that the only K.L.A.W. known by most in Klindom (except for old folks, like me) would be the 4th Fleet.

[y0da777]

What is klaw?

[SoplaHtaHwI']

What is klaw?

Klingon League of Attack Warriors, if I am not mistaken.
A club of Klingon( fan)s...

http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php/topic,6.msg3327.html#msg3327

[y0da777]

Thank you, SoplaHtaHwI'

[qoSagh]

It is actually the Klingon Legion of Assault Warriors, but you were close. It was formed when the Surgeon General of Mortas te Kaase split and took several NY & NJ area members with him. It was based out of Long Island New York and when I started in fandom was probably the largest and most recognizable Klingon group in the NYC area.

They had planned for eventual worldwide expansion, by this I mean they had everywhere you could think of assigned a fleet number. The southeastern united states was assigned the 4th Fleet. When Admiral Kuhr zantai H'nter moved to Florida (in real life) he started up KLAW 4th Fleet. While the 4th Fleet flourished and has done quite well for itself in fandom, KLAW (in NY) did not. There were allot of rumors but I do know that 3/4's of the high command split off and formed the 11th IKEF (Imperial Klingon Expeditionary Force) taking with them most of the members of KLAW. KLAW 4th Fleet wisely split off from the parent group also. The last time I spoke with Admiral Khorgas, he was trying to start a new group (one of the many called) Imperial Klingon Navy, but I do not think it was successful.

An interesting footnote to KLAW history is that the 11th IKEF only lasted a few years, when personal relationships caused the 3 Admirals to split and leave the club in the hands of a Lt. Commander who immediately named himself Admiral and lead the club down a spiraling drain. At the last event I heard of them attending, it was clear that they held no respect or honor among other Klingon clubs.

Either way, it is good to hear from the I.K.V. Como'Val a ship I remember from my early days.