tlhIngan Hol: A Living Language?

[Klythe]

Last thing I heard was that it was created to be a "living" language for the klingons. I think it's cool in that light. From the perspective of me of course.

   There are no native speakers, and there is only one person allowed to coin new words.  In my opinion (which sometimes has been called arrogant), tlhIngan Hol is not a living language at all, it is merely an attempt to simulate one.   Many conlangs are designed to be simpler and more regular then natural languages so that people can learn them easier than a natural living language.   Klingon is different in that regard, although it is still a lot more regular than most living languages, it was not designed to be easily learned, quite the opposite, it was designed to be as alien and strange as possible, but still to be understandable and cohertent enough to pass as a living language.

The Question is, Will it Survive the Lack of Television Promotion... (The K.L.I. Aside),

    Do I need to remind you that the Klingon language predates Trek's return to televsion?   The Klingon language isn't going away there are still several groups outside the KLI that promote the language and try to help people learn it.

[Edit -- split off from tlhIngan Hol - an opinion]

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Last thing I heard was that it was created to be a "living" language for the klingons. I think it's cool in that light. From the perspective of me of course.

   There are no native speakers, and there is only one person allowed to coin new words.  In my opinion (which sometimes has been called arrogant), tlhIngan Hol is not a living language at all, it is merely an attempt to simulate one.   Many conlangs are designed to be simpler and more regular then natural languages so that people can learn them easier than a natural living language.   Klingon is different in that regard, although it is still a lot more regular than most living languages, it was not designed to be easily learned, quite the opposite, it was designed to be as alien and strange as possible, but still to be understandable and cohertent enough to pass as a living language.

The Question is, Will it Survive the Lack of Television Promotion... (The K.L.I. Aside),

    Do I need to remind you that the Klingon language predates Trek's return to televsion?   The Klingon language isn't going away there are still several groups outside the KLI that promote the language and try to help people learn it.

First things first: {tlhIngan Hol} is still in its infancy. It however is much more alive than Klingonaase, which, by chronology is the original language.
The fact that only MO can rule on the validity of words in {tlhIngan Hol} has not stopped many a Klingonist from coining a word, and some even have been "canonised" by MO (look up {'I'}).

Comparing {tlhIngan Hol} with for instance English will limp, as yes, it is not that alive, there are no Native Speakers (because they don't think we are interesting enough yet) and for now there is only one person that can authorise usage of a term.

It is however much more alive than say Elvish (Quenya), which has the same characteristics, but is missing the one important ingredient:  a validation source.

As to {tlhIngan Hol} remaining past the death of the Trek television franchise I can only say: The klingons were given a language before  trek really took off, and they are known to keep those things that are usefull...Be it KLI, be it another source, {tlhIngan Hol}  will never die! 8-)

[Kesvirit]

It is however much more alive than say Elvish (Quenya), which has the same characteristics, but is missing the one important ingredient: a validation source.

This "validation source" is the stongest reason why {tlhIngan Hol} will never be a living language.

Living languages exchange elements with the social millieus they share. They travel, drift, and change over time and with usage. "The Queen's English" as spoken by Elizabeth I is incomprehensible to the subjects of Elizabeth II. Yes, tlhIngan Hol is in its infancy, but it will never have the variations that flavor a living language because a single person (backed by a fleet of lawyers) controls its contstituent vocabulary and pronunciation.  

Which makes me wonder...

The klingons were given a language before trek really took off,....

Before Trek took off?!  }}8-|[/b] TKD debuted in December of 1985 -- AFTER two television series, a third series that metastasized into a film and a completely different series, and three very successful films.
::shakes head:: It is so sad when Klinfolk abandon their heritage for shiny trinkets.

-=- Kesvirit

[SoplaHtaHwI']

The klingons were given a language before trek really took off,....

Before Trek took off?!  }}8-|[/b]

The language I was talking about was klingonaase, Kesvirit...
Granted that not much has been done with it since, but to forget that as the seed of Hol is "blasphemy" in my book.

TKD debuted in December of 1985 -- AFTER two television series, a third series that metastasized into a film and a completely different series, and three very successful films.
::shakes head:: It is so sad when Klinfolk abandon their heritage for shiny trinkets.

-=- Kesvirit

TKD was indeed a culmination of all the {tlhIngan Hol} gathered and thought up during the revival of trek, but give a linguist one sentence of a language not his/her own and you give food for thought, if only it was to see the similarities/differences between {Hol} and -aase.

[Klythe]

First things first: {tlhIngan Hol} is still in its infancy.

    I disagree.  Infancy is a time fo fast growth.  It was it's infancy From the release of TKD, through the update and possibly the Audiotapes.  But it's been two decades and new words are not comming as fast as they used to.  I would say that tlhIngan Hol is in an adolescent stage.  It's not growing as much in terms of the language (words, grammar, etc), but it is growing in  the works written in Klingon, and the overall exposure of the language.  It's filling in after it's growth spurt right now...

    With the word forming rules what they are there isn't all that much space for growth as you might expect, short of having so many honomyms the language becomes unintelligible, or making words longer, which will defeat the tribal aspects of the language...

It however is much more alive than Klingonaase, which, by chronology is the original language.

   It is however much more alive than say Elvish (Quenya), which has the same characteristics, but is missing the one important ingredient: a validation source.

   Which is more dead, a doornail or a rock?  Linguistically speaking, what makes a language alive is native borne speakers adapting the language to meet their needs to communicate with other native speakers about thier environment(in it's broadest possible interpretation).  Latin will never be forgotten, but it is forever dead.  Even if people create/borrow new vocabulary for things the romans never had, it is still just as dead as the Roman Empire.

   Several languages that are dying look to creating  a "validation source" to generate native words, to prop thier language up on life-support.  They hope that doing so will keep thier language alive and pure because foreign words attached to new concepts that come from foreign places erode thier language.  But just creating native words doesn't change the fact that your culure is being influenced by foreign ideas far more than it is influencing other cultures.  A living language has no need for a "validation source", it is a market place of ideas, and the new words people choose are the fastest, strongest ideas as decided by the entire speaking population, not a single language governing institution.

  The fact that only MO can rule on the validity of words in {tlhIngan Hol} has not stopped many a Klingonist from coining a word, and some even have been "canonised" by MO (look up {'I'}).

    This is the exception, not the rule.  In my experience,you are more liekly to be told that you can't do something or it's not a word, that for someone to say something like "Wow that's a really clever and useful word, can I use it"

The language I was talking about was klingonaase, Kesvirit...
Granted that not much has been done with it since, but to forget that as the seed of Hol is "blasphemy" in my book.

    *cough cough*  Klingonaase debuted in "The Final Reflection", which was first published May 1984... Only about a year before TKD...  About the only thing that 'took off' between the two languages was the third movie...   Trek was already big before either language came into being.

TKD was indeed a culmination of all the {tlhIngan Hol} gathered and thought up during the revival of trek, but give a linguist one sentence of a language not his/her own and you give food for thought, if only it was to see the similarities/differences between {Hol} and -aase.

    What are you talking about?  It's pretty clear that Okrand was not influenced by Klingonaase at all.  If he knew about it at all, he was careful to leave it out of his language.  For legal reasons probably...

    Still that could be a good thread...  But I'm straining to come up with any good similarities...  

[SoplaHtaHwI']

As devout as I am in my defence of Hol, I must clearly admit defeat to the much better knowledge of Klindom history of both Klythe and Kesvirit...

I do not mistake {tlhIngan Hol} for a natural language, let that be clear.
It was, is and always will be a constructed language.
Even if the planet that we call Qo'noS exists and holds beings capable of speech, who is to say their language is not more a screech than the low grumbling and raspy g-filled language that we (or at least I) love?

[Klythe]

There is good reason why the Klingon Language would be deeper and more 'gutteral' (a much ridiculed term in linguistic circles) and not high pitched squeals and chirps.   The Klingon language is a language for battle.   We know that Klingons have had metal weapons since before the time of qeylIS.  Therefore the Klingon Language would have had pleanty of time to become well adapted to be heard if not over the sound of two blades clanging at least as being distinct from it.  

    Lower noise travels further and can be projected louder by a humanoid vocal apparatus.   The Klingon language is rich in noisy consonants (frictives like Q and H, plosives like D and and has fewer soft sounds (i.e.  it has no h, th, or f).   The phonology of the Klingon language is well designed as a language for battle.

  Perhaps the 'backwards grammar' and preposition prefix system can also be explained by the need to communicate quickly in battle.   How many times has a terran said "Watch out for the..." and never finished his statement as the warning came to late.  The equivallent in Klingon grammar might be something like, "trap you be-aware".  Communicating the nature of the threat first.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

"watch out for the trap" would be "trap you/it watch (definite & continuously), I think }}:-)
But yes... my screeching-theory was more on a "what if... in reality"-scale.

[torqey]

there is only one person allowed to coin new words.  

Yes, but anyone can put nouns, verbs, suffixes, prefixes, etc. together to make new words. You're not allowed to do that in English.

[ter'eS]

there is only one person allowed to coin new words.  

Yes, but anyone can put nouns, verbs, suffixes, prefixes, etc. together to make new words. You're not allowed to do that in English.

Actually, adding prefixes (to verbs presumably) is just the regular Klingon way of "conjugating" a verb; no new word is created.  Adding suffixes to verbs or nouns just changes the meaning of the stem in some way.  Arguably, this sometimes creates "new words", but I think we always assumed that, to Klingons anyway, these are not new words, just modifications of old ones.  The one thing that's always been discouraged is combining verbs or nouns to make new words.  This is the thing we've always said only Marc Okrand is allowed to do.

[torqey]

there is only one person allowed to coin new words.  

Yes, but anyone can put nouns, verbs, suffixes, prefixes, etc. together to make new words. You're not allowed to do that in English.

Actually, adding prefixes (to verbs presumably) is just the regular Klingon way of "conjugating" a verb; no new word is created.  Adding suffixes to verbs or nouns just changes the meaning of the stem in some way.  Arguably, this sometimes creates "new words", but I think we always assumed that, to Klingons anyway, these are not new words, just modifications of old ones.  The one thing that's always been discouraged is combining verbs or nouns to make new words.  This is the thing we've always said only Marc Okrand is allowed to do.

I'm just curious--why does MO have ownership over the language?

[Qunchuy]

I'm just curious--why does MO have ownership over the language?

Marc Okrand is the author of The Klingon Dictionary(TKD). He is the sole creator of tlhIngan Hol. The copyright for TKD is owned by...well, with all the selling and merging and splitting that's gone on over the last twenty years, I'm not sure anymore. It's probably Simon & Schuster.

Those of us who learn Klingon "seriously" have long had a consensus that we should treat the language as if it were really spoken by Klingons, and that we are merely studying it rather than engaging in its development. Dr. Okrand gets much respect for his creation, and we don't want to usurp his authority.

[ Corrected Underline tags and added (TKD) for clarity.  -Klythe ]

[Kesvirit]

Marc Okrand is the author of The Klingon Dictionary(TKD). He is the sole creator of tlhIngan Hol. The copyright for TKD is owned by...well, with all the selling and merging and splitting that's gone on over the last twenty years, I'm not sure anymore. It's probably Simon & Schuster.

Simon and Schuster publish all Trek-related books through its Pocket Books subsidiary, while CBS owns Simon and Schuster. This startrek.com article explains the details, sort of.

-=- Kesvirit

[Kaz Son of Maktan]

To clarify,
Kesvirit, does CBS own the copyright to the language? Does Paramount own CBS?

[Qunchuy]

...does CBS own the copyright to the language?

It is my considered, well-researched (but non-lawyer) opinion that copyright law does not apply to a language. It applies to specific works describing languages, which includes The Klingon Dictionary, but I don't see any legal justification for anyone to claim ownership of tlhIngan Hol itself.

[Kaz Son of Maktan]

I don't see any legal justification for anyone to claim ownership of tlhIngan Hol itself.

I concur. A language lives and exist by people reading and/ or speaking it, and no person can dictate or rule over that. I did recently give a cursory query to a lawyer friend and they pointed me to the case of Feist vs Rural (I think)
in regards to intellectual property. I haven't looked the case up yet, but considering the dedication of fanboys and fangirls, IMO one's love of star trek and klingons should not be regulated.

[ter'eS]

The issue is not so much who owns the rights to tlhIngan Hol, as it is who has pockets deep enough to assert them.  If Paramount or CBS were to challenge your use of Klingon in a printed work, for example, would you have the resources to take them to court to settle it?

[torqey]

I am never going to coin a new word, but if I tried to, I probably wouldn't go into court over it. There should be some simple way to coin a new word, like sending an idea to MO. But, I guess that's not how our society works, is it?

[QoghtlhIH'u']

I am never going to coin a new word, but if I tried to, I probably wouldn't go into court over it. There should be some simple way to coin a new word, like sending an idea to MO. But, I guess that's not how our society works, is it?

The trouble only comes when you are going to make money by publishing a book (or a movie or a song or a pay website) in Klingon. It does not matter if you make up anything about anything as long as you do not infringe upon the earning capacity of either MO or Simon & Schuster or Viacom. That's when you'll be needing deep pockets to get a good lawyer who is well versed in intellectual property, artistic freedom, copyrights.
But then again, torqey is a Klingon, not a Ferengi, qar'a' (right)?
 

[torqey]

Well, I can be a bit Ferengi-like sometimes...but mostly torqey is a student of Klingon history, customes, language, etc. Not an actual Klingon.

[Qunchuy]

There should be some simple way to coin a new word, like sending an idea to MO.

Ignoring for a moment the conceit that Klingon is a language spoken by actual aliens, and that we're just studying "their" language, the simple way to coin a new word is just to do it, and to use it in a way that lets people understand what you mean. I'm aware of two words (and a verb suffix) that will likely never appear in any Klingon dictionary, but they are recognized by enough people that they're more useful as vocabulary than things like jolvoy' transporter ionizer unit.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

If I would say:
puqloDwI'vaD cha'rutlh lIgh vIghojmoH
with
puqloDwI'vaD - to my son
lIgh   - to ride
vIghojmoH - I cause him/her/it to learn

than you can figure out cha'rutlh yourself if you know that cha' is two and rutlh is wheel.
That is how a new word is coined.

I assume from a CK example
No, you must ride the jitney.
ghobe' lupwI' DalIghnIS.
that lupwI' is the object of lIgh

Now we still have to teach him to watch the traffic.....
DaH latlh cha'rutlhmey loSrutlhmey yItwI'mey je SaHnIS 'e' wIghojmoHnIS  vay' ngeQpa' lIghtaHvIS

[tlhoy' chenmoHwI']

If I would say:
puqloDwI'vaD cha'rutlh lIgh vIghojmoH
with
puqloDwI'vaD - to my son
lIgh   - to ride
vIghojmoH - I cause him/her/it to learn

isnt "my son" the direct object of the verb? The bicycle is not being taught. Wouldnt it be more appropriate to write

cha'rutlh lIghlaHmeH puqloDwI' vIghojmoH
lIghlaHmeH - in order that he can ride it



[Edit -- clarified quote with BBCode. -=- Kesvirit]

[ter'eS]

If I would say:
puqloDwI'vaD cha'rutlh lIgh vIghojmoH
with
puqloDwI'vaD - to my son
lIgh   - to ride
vIghojmoH - I cause him/her/it to learn

isnt "my son" the direct object of the verb? The bicycle is not being taught. Wouldnt it be more appropriate to write

cha'rutlh lIghlaHmeH puqloDwI' vIghojmoH
lIghlaHmeH - in order that he can ride it

(I'm assuming you were quoting QoghtlhIH'u' and then replying)

Using verbs with objects with -moH is one of the least understood topics in Klingon grammar, and much verbal combat has occured over it in the KLI.  It appears that QoghtlhIH'u' is in my camp on this.  I believe that verbs with an object keep the same object when -moH is added, that a causative verb is formed, and that the causee is given the noun suffix -vaD. I don't want to rehash the arguments here, but you can check my homepage for my reasoning.

The original verb ghoj 'to learn' appears to have as its object the thing learnt: tlhIngan Hol vIghoj 'I learn Klingon.'  According to my belief, it retains the same object when it become a causative: jiHvaD tlhIngan Hol DaghojmoH 'You teach (literally "cause to learn") Klingon to me'.  I would phrase learning a behavior a little differently than QoghtlhIH'u' does, and say cha'rutlh lIghmeH mIw ghoj puqloDwI' 'My son is learning how to ride (or "the method for riding") a bicycle', for which the causative would naturally be puqloDwI'vaD cha'rutlh lIghmeH mIw vIghojmoH.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Thanks ter'eS and tlhoy' chenmoHwI'
Both meH and mIw are clearly improvements to my original construction.
And yet:
reH mughIj puqloDwI' cha'rutlh lIghDI'
My son always scares me when he is riding his bike.