tlhIngan Hol after Okrand?

[Kesvirit]

Who gains control of the tlhIngan Hol once Thought Master Okrand has gone to teach proper grammar to warriors serving in the Black Fleet? The director of the KLI? Or does Paramount, as Hol-der of the copyright, appoint a new Creator? Or will they declare declare the language closed and finished?

Information? Opinions? Speculation?

-=- Kesvirit

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Who gains control of the tlhIngan Hol once Thought Master Okrand has gone to teach proper grammar to warriors serving in the Black Fleet? The director of the KLI? Or does Paramount, as Hol-der of the copyright, appoint a new Creator? Or will they declare declare the language closed and finished?

Information? Opinions? Speculation?

-=- Kesvirit

Personally I think that Paraborg might want to start sending "ceise and desist" letters to anyone continueing the Language after MO starts his new career, although the existence of the KLI and its relationship with TPTB (which I perceive as mentor - pupil) should save us from this.

The process of creating more canon can only be passed to a (or many) successors by MO himself, IMO.

These are my thoughts, no information directly from the KLI list or MO himself...

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Does Paramount own Copyright On the Language itself? Is that Even Possible?

[Klythe]

Ummm... I don't think they can own copyright on the language itself...  They own copyright for the word "Klingon" and the media where they are presented.  The books that specify "The Klingon Language" are copyrighted, but I'm not sure a language can be copyrighted.

     But in effect, they basically do have copyright, because they would sue any unauthorized usage they didn't like until the offending party ran out of money to defend themselves... Then they'd crush the offensive content into nothingness...

    Certainly the content of the commercially books qualifies as a "work for hire" project, and belongs to Paramount...  But I don't think he was contacted to create the new words he has  on the newsgroups and published by the KLI.  That would set the precident that it is Okrand's language to do what he wants with it...

    So yeah, from what I understand...  SoplaHtaHwI' is right, it is Okrand's estate that will determine the disposition of tlhIngan Hol.   And I think they will see that the 'right thing' to do is give it to the KLI.

[qoSagh]

While I agree that Mark Okrand's (eventual) estate will ultimately be the arbiter of succession, I think that Paraborg will claim that right and try to fight them for posession. I also think that the KLI will be a major player in this matter, but they may decide to stay put and see where the words fall.

Remember that the future owner of the language will not really be about what we as fans do with it. We will still debate it here on-line, speak it at conventions, write poems and songs in it, no matter who owns it. The contest will be about who owns the future publishing rights and who gets to add to cannon once the creator ceases to create.

Okrands continued participation at conventions and with the KLI, will show a body of work independant of Paraborg. Hopefully that will be enough in a court of law. We the fans who have used tlhIngan Hol in various creative works (even as simple as character names) will also be able to help. If in no other way than being living evidence of the language existing well beyond it's original intended uses.  

[Abbot Nej vIt]

It Would Be Curious to Seen What a 2105 Edition of the Encyclopedia Galactica might have to say about it?...<Chuckle>...

[Kesvirit]

Forget the Encyclopedia Galactica -- Everyone knows that the Hitchhiker's Guide trumps the EG in both utility and credibility.

Besides, it is slightly cheaper, and who goes through life without the use for at least one friendly warning of "Don't Panic"? }}; )

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

If such a fine reference book is used by Klingons, doe that mean it will have in it the recipie for jInanD taniq ?

[wingcommanderkram]

In responce to what will happen to tlhingan Hol after Marc Okrand goes to command the Black Fleet, I just met him this past February at Farpoint Convention here in Baltimore (I joined the KLI and was signed up by Lawrence Schonen), and during a discussion of just that subject, he mentions that the 'canon' of it will probably be 'officially' over since only his words are all official, but he stated that something this popular may probably never go away, and the KLI will probably be the only recognized authority since the fans have supported them so faithfully and since Marc has been a close supporter as well.

     Survive and Succeed,

     Kram, Son of yu'll (a.K.a. Mark in Maryland)

[SoplaHtaHwI']

In responce to what will happen to tlhingan Hol after Marc Okrand goes to command the Black Fleet

...he mentions that the 'canon' of it will probably be 'officially' over since only his words are all official, but he stated that something this popular may probably never go away, and the KLI will probably be the only recognized authority...

Although the 'canon' is sometimes called "Okrandian canon" since some do not recognise "tlhIngan Hol" spoken in the series until Okrand has confirmed it, that's sad...

This means that with the promotion of Commander Okrand, the warrior's language will be no different from Elvish (Quenya)...
Let's all work towards as much canon to the language as possible, since it will be only guessing from then on.

[Kesvirit]

In responce to what will happen to tlhingan Hol after Marc Okrand goes to command the Black Fleet,... he mentions that the 'canon' of it will probably be 'officially' over since only his words are all official,...

Then I hope he makes good use of his remaining time to generate more vocabulary in a wider variety of areas. While the syntax is adequate, the current word inventory is so limited in scope as to make it difficult to convey ideas.

This means that with the promotion of Commander Okrand,...

*scowls* Only for foolish martyrs is death a promotion.

-=- Kesvirit

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Hmmm.... Without Active Trek Shows, Only Film remains as the Common Canon Media... (Which is Notoriously Inconsistant with the Rest of the Trek Universe)... Unless Marc Himself Writes More Lierature on the Subject... So I am Not Sure How "Fans" Can do Much to Promote Canonazation of new material?

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Hmmm.... Without Active Trek Shows, Only Film remains as the Common Canon Media... (Which is Notoriously Inconsistant with the Rest of the Trek Universe)... Unless Marc Himself Writes More Lierature on the Subject... So I am Not Sure How "Fans" Can do Much to Promote Canonazation of new material?

In tlhIngan Hol, the only real canon is MO canon, as on film/tv it can be pronounced and thus come across wrong, among other reasons.

For lack of publications of Okrand himself, all we as fans can do is discuss the language, opt for new words/constructions and wait for Mr. Okrand to comment and/or rule on them.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

SoplaHtaHwI',

I Guess I Did not realize that Okrand Entertained Ideas for New Words and usage... This Makes More Sense then, if We as Fans Can Get the Master Linguist himself to Approve/Use New Words... But Again, the Likelyhood of Wide Spread usage is still likely Small as there are No New Shows out there... And Very Little Klingon Makes it into recent Film...

[SoplaHtaHwI']

SoplaHtaHwI',

I Guess I Did not realize that Okrand Entertained Ideas for New Words and usage... This Makes More Sense then, if We as Fans Can Get the Master Linguist himself to Approve/Use New Words...

He does, however very infrequent and few...
As to the usage in film: that is a pity indeed, but we have to go with what we've got and fight for the language as we would for any honorable cause.

[qoSagh]

Film usage has lead us to one benfit, however backhanded thier origins. There were few if any Klingon homonyms before actors started mispronouncing Okrand's words.

I believe that Okrand has "canonized" words created by fans and placed into general usage, mostly though interaction with the KLI. What I was talking about were words that may never make any printing of the dictionary, like names of people, places, organizations. Proper nouns that are designed to be compliant with tlhIngan Hol but will probably live forever under the radar of Okrand. As these words fall in and out of general usage, they will show a body that exists due to Okrand's work. I'm not sure how much it will help, but it is probably the only contribution that fandom can make to the upcomming battle.

[Kesvirit]

I Did not realize that Okrand Entertained Ideas for New Words and usage... This Makes More Sense then, if We as Fans Can Get the Master Linguist himself to Approve/Use New Words...

I believe that Okrand has "canonized" words created by fans and placed into general usage, mostly though interaction with the KLI.

How may those of us who are not big fish in the KLI lobby Thought Master Okrand to make official a larger number and wider range of words?

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I Did not realize that Okrand Entertained Ideas for New Words and usage... This Makes More Sense then, if We as Fans Can Get the Master Linguist himself to Approve/Use New Words...

I believe that Okrand has "canonized" words created by fans and placed into general usage, mostly though interaction with the KLI.

How may those of us who are not big fish in the KLI lobby Thought Master Okrand to make official a larger number and wider range of words?

I believe the only way is to discuss these words (or any that come up) in the official tlhIngan-Hol list at KLI or on many of the newsgroups that it is said the Thought Master visits (I dare not say frequent as I'm no big fish either)

All one needs or indeed can know about the KLI mailing list

[qoSagh]

While I am not too familiar with the process involved, I think it is not a metter of getting Okrand to make more words but a matter of getting him to recognize more words as they are made up. From what I have heard this is usually a consensus standard, which comes out of the annual meeting of the KLI. I remember reading about the word for Dog, being the Klingon word for rover (one who roves). I think there was some specific need to translate dog that lead to this word being made up but I don't know the history. In my opinion the KLI has also done more work with gramar than with vocabulary, as they actively try to figure out ways to translate works.

 

[torqey]

Who gains control of the tlhIngan Hol once Thought Master Okrand has gone to teach proper grammar to warriors serving in the Black Fleet? The director of the KLI? Or does Paramount, as Hol-der of the copyright, appoint a new Creator? Or will they declare declare the language closed and finished?

Information? Opinions? Speculation?

-=- Kesvirit

I think the director of KLI should, or Okrand could appoint someone else...

[K'Voth]

It is certainly a difficult one, although it is an amazing opportunity in some ways as it can be up to us to move forward with the language whilst keeping to the grammatical laws layed down. I guess it is like the difference between "Proper/Queens English" and what is actually spoken.

[El Payaso Malo]

Other languages grow, evolve and adapt to the needs of its speakers. No word to express something? Make it up! Grammatical rule unwieldy or another language has a better one? Replace or abolish it! This is true of natural languages like German and constructed languages like Esperanto. Klingon, however, evolves slowly to the point of seeming stagnant, because only one person is relied upon for its improvement; unlike other languages where the speakers dictate the language's direction. Klingon is the linguistic equivalent of a dictatorship (I am not implying the negative connotation that is usually associated by dictatorships), because only one person has the final word. This is both good and bad. Good, because it keeps it from schisming due to a hodgepodge of various personal additions (although one may argue that this would be a logical direction as a "real" language would do this; it is called 'developing dialects') and bad because of the afor mentioned apparent stagnation due to small growth. I personally want Okrand to be the final authority (or at least one of them) during his lifetime, but after his death I see one of three things happening: the KLI director (or someone of Okrand's choosing) serves as a successor, the KLI replaces him (becoming a linguistic oligarchy) or the speakers become the authority, taking a path similar to other languages, natural or artificial. I'm not sure which I would prefer, but I do wish that Okrand would make his contributions more frequent (perhaps hold the qep'a' triennially or something). I'm not much concerned about Paramount. They could pose a very big threat if they choose, but I doubt they will. My point is, we have all of these words that we are unlikely to use in conversation like Dilithium or the bridge of a starship, but words that are practical are still missing like bridge that provides a path over an obstacle or even a word for poem (I've been using bomqoq). We have words for paperclip and deodorant (words that I honestly did not expect in the first version of the Dictionary), but lack many that would commonly be used. I am interested to see the direction that this language (that I prefer over English) will take once Okrand has left us, but I don't want that to be any time soon.