Mirror Miror on the Wall

[qoSagh]

Having just seen the second part of "Into a Mirror Darkly" last night I started thinking. In the original "Mirror Mirror" there was no mention of Klingons  which while unfortunate wasn't all that unreasonable. Klingon had yet to achieve cult status, and there was really nothing they could do to help the plot along. In the DS9 episodes which depict a time after the Terran Empire fell, the Klingons we see seem no different than Klingons in the regular universe. Now in the prequels, we once again see no mention of Klingons, which is unusual because Klingons have been an important part of Enterprise, at least more important than in TOS.

In fandom, prior to the DS9 episodes, it was commonly held that mirror Klingons would be weaklings, like the federation. They would pursue peace and possibly have thier own federation. While we see no proof of that, we do know that even if they were not originally a warrior race, they certainly become one inthe 24 century. So what does eveybody on these forums think the mirror Klingons would have been like in Archer's or even Kirk's time?

 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Still have not seen any ST: Enterprise Episodes beyond the 1st Season... Let Alone the Mirror Universe Prequel Stuff...

That Having Been Said, I am Curious why we might "Assume" that the Mirror Klingons Would be the "New" Federation?

If anything, One Would think that the Klingon Empire might Have it's Hands Full Trully Fighting the Imperial Federation of Planets (Was'nt that what it was Called in TOS?), Whose Strength would be Augmented By Ruthless Tactics The UFP would Never Resort to... Not to Mention the Romulan Threat, The Ongoing Issues with the Orions Etc...

When Would they Have the Time to Rethink their Imperial Exspansionist Philosophy?

This is a Question not a Challange, I am Not Well read enough of the MANY Klingon Novels Written over the Years, to Know where the Claim of a More Peaceful Klingon Empire would have come from...

[SoplaHtaHwI']

When Would they Have the Time to Rethink their Imperial Exspansionist Philosophy?

This is a Question not a Challange, I am Not Well read enough of the MANY Klingon Novels Written over the Years, to Know where the Claim of a More Peaceful Klingon Empire would have come from...

In the normal Trek universe, a Klingon is mainly expansionist and honor-bound, correct?
Would in a mirror universe this Klingon not be complacent and backhanded?
The universe is not your normal run-of-the-mill alternate universe, it is a mirror, and thus should contain opposites...

[Kesvirit]

Though I am well-versed in things TOS, my knowledge of TAS, TNG and DS9 is sketchy, and my knowledge of things VOY and ENT is not nonexistant enough for my preferences.

Having gotten the disclaimers out of the way, my view of the mirror universe is not that off opposites, but rather "How would things have turned out if the collective Trekiverse history had taken another path?" The raw materials are the same; it is the events, both large and unnoticibly small, that make for the drastically different societies and individuals we see in the mirror. A mirror reflects what is in front of it -- the image is a reversed representation of the object, not its opposite. Left becomes right, but black does not become white. Here is a brief illustrated explanation of symmerty operations, including the mirror plane. (I would love to discuss this further with anyone who is interested.)

Thus I would think that Klingons would still be klingons, but have been a kuve race long since overtaken by a rival expansionist group such as the Hurq, the Cardassians, or long-time rivals the Romulans.  But they would be the most troublesome kuve ever known... Perhaps they would be used as disposable shock troops, similar to how the Cardassians used the Jem Hadar, their violent tendencies harnessed and redirected by their conquerors.

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

Fandom has created much where there was little or nothing to go on. The changing image of what a mirror Klingon is like was what got me to thinking of all this stuff. From the DS9 episodes it is interesting that the Klingons are the only race which seems to have survived basically unchanged. But I have off and on through the years seen all manner of whimpy and weak "mirror" Klingons at conventions.

I tend to agree that the mirror universe is not the oposite but a place where a different turn was made in the road of life. After seeing the DS9 episodes I for one was overjoyed to see that Klingons on both sides were warriors, and that the cardasians were thier slaves.

If the road followed was different, I wonder where that difference occured? Could perhaps the Klingons there revere Molar as the great conquorer? The one who showed us all how to be feudal.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Kesvirit,

I am inclined to agree on the Point of the Mirror Universe being a Reflection Whose perception is Changed, but Where Physics remains Constant... And Part of the Problem is that the Author of the TOS story line (Written by Jerome Bixby I Think), Could never have anticipated the Resultant Follow up Stories in theLarger Trek Universe... (Remember No TOS Two Parters, or Broad Ongoing Story Arcs were ever Written to be Such, so Continuity was Next to Non-existant)... So there is A lot of Room for interpretation...

qoSagh,

The Historical Impacts of the TOS Story line Invole the History of the (IFP?) Prior to Kirks Blatantly Ignoring the Prime Directive, and then the Mirror Universes Anti-logical Spock Plunging the IFP into Chaos by totaly Disregarding What was Clearly a Functioning System in Preferance of a "Utopion" Vision Offered up by a Weak Human who was too Terrified for his own personal saftey to Obey the Very Principles that he Sought to Inspire in The Anti-spock...

Presumeably The Anti-spock only managed to Succeed in Bringing the Empire Down by Using the Assasins Device Granted him by the Coward Kirk, So Non of this would likely have had a Big Impact on the Klingon Empire Except that With the IFP in Decline there would have been Less Competition...

Either way the Over Mining of Praxis must still have required some sort of short term Treaty with Competeing Opposition in order to Grow Strong again, thus the Participation in What ever the Union was in the DS-9 era Mirror Universe...

What I Do not Get was How the Bajorans, an otherwise virtually unknown Species managed to be in Control of the Whole Mess... Including Sort of Lording Over the Klingons...


[Edit - Removed large blank space]

[Kehlan]

What I Do not Get was How the Bajorans, an otherwise virtually unknown Species managed to be in Control of the Whole Mess... Including Sort of Lording Over the Klingons...

Those script writers have got a lot to answer for!

Actually, I think the idea of mirror Klingons being weak came from the ideas in the TOS episode where "our" Kirk is honourable and good and the mirror Kirk is dishonourable and bad.  They did it very much as the evil twin thing.  Hence, if our Klingons are strong, theirs must be weak.  Hmmm... I DON'T THINK SO!!!
In the DS9 episodes the mirror universe was fleshed out a little and became less of a two dimensional carboard cut out and we get to see the Klingons being their usual strong arrogant selves.  In these episodes we begin to see the path not taken as opposed to the simplistic TOS idea of everything being opposite. 

I did rather like the Regent Worf though.  (Must be a female thing)

Kehlan

[Klythe]

Remember No TOS Two Parters

     Warning.    Nit pick ahead.  Repeat,    nit pick ahead. 

     The Menagarie was not a two part episode?     

     Anyway, yeah, I catch you point. Although I have more substantive disagreements.

    Not every species was reflected through the same mirror.  Vulcans are still logical, although colder more calculating and unconcerned about the fate of others, only themselves.   We haven't seen Romulans to my knowledge in any Mirror universe episode, so it may be that they never split with Vulcans.

    Spock may have used the Tantalas device to secure his position, but his goal was not to bring down the Terran Empire, but to preserve it,since the 'normal' Kirk had convinced him that the Empire would not endure along it's current path.  Ironically it still didn't endure after the new direction.

    So there wasn't mention of the Klingons in the TOS episode Mirror, Mirror.  So people had to make stuff up, until canon came and as usual pulled out the rug.  I forgot my point...  Oh.  You must all go and watch the Enterprise Mirror Universe two part episode.  There are no Klingons, but there are Tholians and even a Gorn, and more twists and turns than Lombard Street.

[qoSagh]

I agree that canon once again pulled the rug out from under fandom, which is par for the course. But having just seen a repeat of the Southpark 4th Grade season premier, I will not discuss the whole menagerie two parter thing for fear of opening up a rift in time.

As for the Mirror Universe, I am actually inclined to like the canon version better than the fandom ones, but really more because the canon one is better developed. The fans I have seen doing "Mirror Klingons" have been doing them as one off jokes, sometimes with pink and blue battle armor, I have even seen flowers worn on headpieces. Other than trying to be unklingon, I see no greater concept in those ideas. Formidable costuming, but little substance. At least the script writers have had some substance beaten into their works.