Klingon Similies/Metaphors/Analogies in English

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-9-2002 at 03:01 PM

Klingon Similies/Metaphors/Analogies in English

I realize that this is a broad and far-flung question, but does anyone have any advice as to how to come up with Klingon-flavored metaphors that would be recognized as such by Trek fans who are unfamiliar with the tlhIngan Hol? I suspect that even if I could get back-translations right that most folks wouldn't recognize them.

For example, recently I was trying to describe someone as being mentally unbalanced. Normally in RL I'd go with something like "crazy as a loon" or "crazy as a peach-orchard boar". But even fluent speakers probably wouldn't get a bird similie derived from Maltz's list, and "crazy as a marinated targ" sounds like a feast dish gone awry.

I'm really at a loss here. Any advice would be appreciated.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 9-16-2002 at 07:43 AM

Actually there was an article about cutural Metaphores in the Hol QeD back last September, I think... Here it is... Vol 10 Num 3...

Much of it is fairly obvious, for example just like English, arguement is equated with war, etc. ...er, looking at your post again, I guess that you would have that article too...

I'm tempted to just leave it at "your mind is weak as water." but perhaps "stable as water" would be closer to insane than merely stupid...

The correct answer depends on what you really mean by mentally unbalanced... Is the one we are discussing seem to have a genuine neurosis or is the one merely posses "unpredictable" thought patterns. I would try to describe the subject's difficulty more specifically. "His blood gets too hot and has burned away his mind", or "His mental communications have been jammed". This is where a good wit and skill at Curse Warfare applies.

*remembers some of the ones used in the Weakest link Star Trek edition.*
"Who's phaser was set to stupid?"
"Who's brain needs to report to sickbay?"
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-16-2002 at 03:50 PM

Klingon Metaphor/Similies in English

Actually there was an article about cutural Metaphores in the Hol QeD back last September, I think... Here it is... Vol 10 Num 3...
Much of it is fairly obvious, for example just like English, arguement is equated with war, etc. ...er, looking at your post again, I guess that you would have that article too...

I'm trying to stay away from cliche'd stuff about war and targs, but keep coming up empty.

I don't speak tlhIngan Hol at all (I'm really, really bad at languages) and I don't think my potential audience would either aside from an occasional phrase here and there. But thanks for the suggestion. I tried to look up the Hol Qed reference you mentioned on the KLI site, but apparently back issues are not archived on-line and have to be ordered from stock through snail mail.

I also found a chapter on idiom and similie in "Klingon for the Galactic Traveler", but it's too obscure for my purposes as it presumes a working language of the Hol that most Trek fans won't have.

I'm tempted to just leave it at "your mind is weak as water." but perhaps "stable as water" would be closer to insane than merely stupid...

I don't think that most people would think of water as weak unless it were specifically compared to whiskey. Ever fought a flood or a rip current?

The correct answer depends on what you really mean by mentally unbalanced... Is the one we are discussing seem to have a genuine neurosis or is the one merely posses "unpredictable" thought patterns. I would try to describe the subject's difficulty more specifically. "His blood gets too hot and has burned away his mind", or "His mental communications have been jammed". This is where a good wit and skill at Curse Warfare applies.

The subject isn't literally crazy but sometimes comes across that way due to unusual thought processes and sometimes makes people nervous because of it. There may be a slight amount of "crazy like a fox" factor there, too.

Instead of "crazy as a peach-orchard boar", how about "crazy as a targ that's fallen into a wine cask" and by extension swallowed quite a bit of it in order to get out? Sounds forced, doesn't it.

I'm not even sure I'm asking the question right, in which case of course I'll never get a usable answer.

- Kesvirit

[qurgh]

posted on 9-20-2002 at 12:01 PM

Hehehe, some of these are really funny. I love the one about the targh and the wine cast.

I guess this comes down to how comfortable you are with making idioms for another culture. Most people will hear them as forced or nonsensical because they don't understand the culture. To me saying, "As weak as water" makes sense and sounds fine, from a Klingon point of view.

When I try and think of idioms like these, I get a little off topic, but here are some that might jump start your imagination:
As smart as a targh
As annoying as a glob fly
As crazy as a Terran
As pompus as a Romulan
As dull as a Vulcan
As fat as K'empec
As slimy as a Duras
As crazy as a Da'vID/Da'nal (if you get the pun here, it's even more fun)
As lucky as a waqbogh (look up this word in the bird list)
As rare as a cha'Do' (another pun)

A few of these could be comments about a persons mental state, but thats up to you to decide what comes to mind when you say them. Don't think about them to much, you have to let them hit your Klingon side before your human side, and if you think about it, your human side takes over.

This was fun, I could do this all day.  ^_^  

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-21-2002 at 02:52 PM

quoth qurgh I guess this comes down to how comfortable you are with making idioms for another culture.

Being comfortable in coming up with idioms for another culture has nothing to do with it. The problem comes in speaking or writing for a specific audience. (Believe me, when heard in the right context that bit that has become my sig is funny as h*ll. I figured that with all the con-goers on the board that aspects of it would have at least rated a smile, but it appears to have fallen as flat as gagh that's just been stepped on.)

As noted in my initial post to the thread, I'm somewhat limited in how specific or obscure I can get when speaking or writing for a general Trek audience on things Klingon. Your average Trek enthusiast does not speak tlhIngan Hol, and the funnier and more layered the in-joke, the fewer people will get it. Frustrating, I know, but it's hard to get your point across when you're the only one in the room laughing while everyone else is looking at you as if you've just walked through fresh taQbang sargh. (Besides, not everyone equated a Duras with slime. If they were able to bring the Empire to the brink of war, they must have has a lot of supporters. Including me, but that's another arguement for another time. >:-)

There's a line in ST4 in which McCoy expresses to Kirk his concerns over Spock's abilities with the line, "He's not exactly firing on all thrusters." These are the sort of things I'm aiming for, but with a Klingon flair.

As for being "as lucky as a waqbogh", if I correctly understand your intent, that one doesn't quite work. The generalized avian reproductive system is set up much differently than the mammalian one due to flight adaptation and, well, that old genetic drift... (*singing* "That old genetic drift has me in its spell...") Very few birds have the requisite anatomy for what you're thinking. (Further references availiable upon request. )

- Kesvirit
 

[qurgh]

posted on 9-23-2002 at 01:06 AM

Ooops, HIvqa' veqlargh!

I ment to say, I guess it all comes down to how comfortable you are with a culture when making idioms for it. (ie if it doesn't sound right, but you know it is, then thats a mindset thing)

I understand what you mean by the layered jokes, many people won't get them, but then those that are really deep into the Klingon culture will get them, and at least you will be able to weed out the Klingon wannbes.

Normally, when I think of a joke, I say it. Cause I know that one or two people will get it. ie. I have written out a version of the Monty Python's life of Brian sketch when Brian writes Romans go Home on the wall, and he messes it up and John Cleese as a roman corrects him, except my version is about a Klingon guard and a terran, using the Klingon language. It's full of great puns, and I think it's very funny, as do a couple of other speakers. But most average fans don't get it at all. Should I have not bothered doing it cause people don't get it, h*ll no!

If you think it works, and it's good, do it. Don't worry about others not getting it. Some will and it will take on a life of it's own.

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-25-2002 at 03:23 AM

Biligual puns

Originally posted by qurgh I ment to say, I guess it all comes down to how comfortable you are with a culture when making idioms for it. (ie if it doesn't sound right, but you know it is, then thats a mindset thing)

I understand what you mean by the layered jokes, many people won't get them, but then those that are really deep into the Klingon culture will get them, and at least you will be able to weed out the Klingon wannbes.

I think that's a bit harsh. Just because you're not fluent in tlhIngan Hol doesn't make you a wannabe. If I had any proficiency at languages at all I'd get some of the more common RL ones under my belt first.

Normally, when I think of a joke, I say it. Cause I know that one or two people will get it. ie. I have written out a version of the Monty Python's life of Brian sketch when Brian writes Romans go Home on the wall, and he messes it up and John Cleese as a roman corrects him, except my version is about a Klingon guard and a terran, using the Klingon language. It's full of great puns, and I think it's very funny, as do a couple of other speakers. But most average fans don't get it at all.

Throw an English version up on the board and see what salutes. I'd be interested to see it.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 10-12-2002 at 06:53 PM

This is kind of asking for contradictory things... You want something everyone recognises, but isn't cliche. And you don't see a disconnect? I think someone set the mind sifter to 'puree'...

Or maybe he set he's three vanguards shy of a full Klin Zha set. (I don't normally support the sort of sayings that refer to a terran oneliner, but when your audience is lay people...)

Did he spent too much time under the painstick during his ascention ceremony? Are his teeth not as sharp as a Batletlh?

Obviously, if we are talking about lay people, we have to set aside what klingons are really like and just go with the percieved flavour. I don't see Klingons joking about insanity. If your decision-making skills are suspect, you are confronted and called by your percieved ailment: 'glory-slave', 'fool', or 'traitor'. No Klingon could get away with using madness to cover brilliance, because the mad are not tolerated as they are in the Federation. Mostly because it's harder to tell the difference there, they all act like they are mad. (Khamlet reference.)
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 10-20-2002 at 11:28 AM

Au contraire, mon frere

This is kind of asking for contradictory things... You want something everyone recognises, but isn't cliche. And you don't see a disconnect?

It's not contradictory at all. A sharp wit makes for a sharp mind and is related to the ability to make snap decisions, to think on the fly. Parroting the same old lines tends to indicate a follower with no imagination. Such individuals tend to end up as phaser fodder who get thawed from cryo just long enough to be handed a disruptor rifle, pointed at the enemy, and given a good shove.

I think someone set the mind sifter to 'puree'..."

I've already used that one. Actually is was something like "hooked her (this particular person is a her) up to the mind sifter by her toes, set it on 'liquify', and cranked the power to eleven'." (With a tip of the keyboard to Christopher Guest.)

Or maybe he set he's three vanguards shy of a full Klin Zha set.

Good one! I would offer to high-five had your remark not just blistered my hand.

(I don't normally support the sort of sayings that refer to a terran oneliner, but when your audience is lay people...)

*snarl* Watch who you're calling Terran.

Did he spent too much time under the painstick during his ascention ceremony?

That would make her a vegetable, not crazy.

Are his teeth not as sharp as a Batletlh?

This is the sort of thing I'm trying to avoid. Anything involving teeth and bat'leths in the same sentence is...well...you know...

Obviously, if we are talking about lay people, we have to set aside what klingons are really like and just go with the percieved flavour. I don't see Klingons joking about insanity. If your decision-making skills are suspect, you are confronted and called by your percieved ailment: 'glory-slave',

Doesn't this describe most Klingons? :lol:

'fool', or 'traitor'.***

***Mostly because it's harder to tell the difference there, they all act like they are mad. (Khamlet reference.)

Agreed, in principle. I can't recognize or find the context, though. Refresh what there is of my memory.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 2-8-2003 at 07:05 AM

Now that you reminded me this thread exists...

Oringinally posted by Klythe I don't normally support the sort of sayings that refer to a terran oneliner, but when your audience is lay people...

Originally posted by Kesvirit *snarl* Watch who you're calling Terran.

_What_ I'm calling terran is the one-line joke about missing cards of a poker deck... I didn't think the one considered yourself a oneliner...

That would make her a vegetable, not crazy.

How many syllables in vegetable? It's one of my favourite words to hear pronounced. Bugs Bunny and Kor use four syllables. I know I just recently watched Errand of Mercy again. Most Americans use only three. And if you listen carefully, Kor pronounces his own name 'qur' not 'qor' like everyone else I hear pronounce the name of the DaHar Master. I wonder if the one uses his own name in the DS9 Episodes he appeared in...

This is the sort of thing I'm trying to avoid. Anything involving teeth and bat'leths in the same sentence is...well...you know...

Barbaric? Is that not the first view people get of Klingons? For purposes of a joke, what is wrong with a little barbarism between friends? We both know where the barbarism ends, but everyone can recognise barbarism and associate it with Klingons. It is not cliche... You are really making this hard ya know...

Gloryslave: Doesn't this describe most Klingons? :lol:

No, but I think it does describe Krudge. There is not so thing distinction between seeking a thing and being obsessed with a thing that it the quest for it overrides all other considerations. Most Klingons desire for glory can be controlled if doing so is advantageous... Kang was able to set aside glory for the greater good, Kor and Koloth had it ripped from them... Krudge made some mistakes because of his quest for glory overwhelmed him.

Although... The prequel book made it sound like he was more of a vengence-slave... But if that were true Krudge would have recognized Kirk, instead of saying "So the Genesis Commander himself", he would have probably said, "So, we meet at last Kirk!"...

Agreed, in principle. I can't recognize or find the context, though. Refresh what there is of my memory.

I speak of the famous play by wIlyam Sey'qSpIr... Khamlet Prince of Qo'noS. When KornelIS sends Khamlet away, to a place his madness will not seem out of place...

Incidentally, the Hamlet in the original Klingon was also where I saw "butlh" used figuratively as something akin to Klin. (it was in the appendix at the end...)

Hmm... I guess I'll actually have to read the the Klingon version of the play to see how it deals with Hamlet's and Ophelia's respective madnesses...

I don't speak TlhIngan Hol either, I'm really only interested in studing the things that make it different than English, definately not wanting to memorize a bunch of words with direct English translations...

[Kesvirit]

posted on 2-24-2003 at 06:38 AM

One-liners, veg-e-tab-les, K'Bugs...

quoth Klythe(I don't normally support the sort of sayings that refer to a terran oneliner, but when your audience is lay people...)

snarled Kesv Watch who you're calling Terran.
quoth Klythe _What_ I'm calling terran is the one-line joke about missing cards of a poker deck... I didn't think the one considered yourself a oneliner...

No, but some others do. grrrr...
Actually I think that "Or maybe he set he's three vanguards shy of a full Klin Zha set" is a good compromise in that it is something even a Human would recognize. As distasteful as the idea is, sometimes we must make allowances for the lesser species.

quoth Kesv That would make her a vegetable, not crazy.

quoth Klythe How many syllables in vegetable? It's one of my favourite words to hear pronounced. Bugs Bunny and Kor use four syllables. I know I just recently watched Errand of Mercy again. Most Americans use only three. And if you listen carefully, Kor pronounces his own name 'qur' not 'qor'...

According to Merriam-Webster, either three or four is acceptable.

One of my favorite Warner cartoons is a spoof of the Ring Cycle, with Bugs and Elmer Fudd in the leading roles (with "Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit,..." sung to the tune of "Ride of the Valkyries"). Your most worthy question about the pronunciation of the word "vegetable" brings to mind some very disturbing images of "Errand of Mercy" with Elmer as Kiwk, Bugs as Koow, Daffy Duck as Spock, and Foghown Leghown as McCoy. Only instead of interrogating Spock under the mind sifter, Bugs-as-Koow has McCoy tied wrists and ankles to a too-small chair. He assumes a seductive pose on his desk, takes a suggestively squishy chomp of gagh from the bowl in front of him, and demands to know, "What's up, Doc?"

*sniff, sniff* I think we must have a vapor leak somewhere. If the one will excuse me, I must impress upon my lead maintenance mechanic the importance of the thorough and timely execution of her duties. (*heads for door, fingering agonizer at belt and ominously mumbling something in which only the repeated word "execution" can be understood*)

quoth Kesv This is the sort of thing I'm trying to avoid. Anything involving teeth and bat'leths in the same sentence is...well...you know...

quoth Klythe Barbaric?

By Kahless' khestrani, have you not been paying attention? I know you have the mind of a diamond saw. Perhaps you need to scrape the dried gagh tlhiq from your ears from last leave's food-fight-turned-riot that resulted in getting the entire crew being banned from Argo in perpetuity.

Cliche'd. Stale. Trite. Worn out. Emptied of meaning and signifigance by sheer repitition. Overused to the point of impotence.
Aha! Finally, I heard that one ring a few bells (or was that set off some alarms?)

Is that not the first view people get of Klingons? For purposes of a joke, what is wrong with a little barbarism between friends? We both know where the barbarism ends, but everyone can recognise barbarism and associate it with Klingons. It is not cliche...

It is! Such a joke is only funny the first few times it is heard. It quickly goes from humorous to annoying. Especially with Klingons, who are not known for their sophisticated humor... nor for their patience.

You are really making this hard ya know...

That was not my intent. I am thankful to all who have answered my plea for assistance in this thread. This is my undertaking, and I alone will bear responsibility if it fails. No one is obliged to participate and may back out at any time without prejudice or ill will.

quoth Kesv Gloryslave: Doesn't this describe most Klingons? :lol:
quoth Klythe No, but I think it does describe Krudge. ***... Krudge made some mistakes because of his quest for glory overwhelmed him. Although... The prequel book made it sound like he was more of a vengence-slave...

Which book is this?

There is not so thing distinction between seeking a thing and being obsessed with a thing that it the quest for it overrides all other considerations.

Ah... Again, please? The toxic vapors have not yet completely cleared my system and I am having trouble deciphering your words.

Most Klingons desire for glory can be controlled if doing so is advantageous... Kang was able to set aside glory for the greater good, Kor and Koloth had it ripped from them

Hmph. It was Koow's -- er, Kor's unbridled desire for glory and lack of self-discipline that cost him his honor. He can hardly blame his own mistakes of ego on another. To do so implies a lack of both honor and integrity.

[Klythe]

posted on 3-6-2003 at 09:40 AM

It is! Such a joke is only funny the first few times it is heard. It quickly goes from humorous to annoying. Especially with Klingons, who are not known for their sophisticated humor... nor for their patience.

Well, you said the primary target is lay people... But I think the three vanguards is something both oldschoolers and lay people have a good chance to enjoy....

Which book is this?

"Faces of Fire" by Michael Jan Friedman, Pocketbooks TOS #58. Interesting that most of the Klingon books are 10,12 or 13 apart.
#3 The Klingon Gambit
#16 TFR
#26 P&S
#36 How much for that planet in the Window
#48 Rules of Engagement
#58 FoF

Originally posted by Klythe There is not so thing distinction between seeking a thing and being obsessed with a thing that it the quest for it overrides all other considerations.

Originally posted by Kesvirit Ah... Again, please? The toxic vapors have not yet completely cleared my system and I am having trouble deciphering your words.

I have no idea what I was saying but it does parse correctly if you replace "not so thing" with "a". Fumes. That must be it...

Hmph. It was Koow's -- er, Kor's unbridled desire for glory and lack of self-discipline that cost him his honor. He can hardly blame his own mistakes of ego on another. To do so implies a lack of both honor and integrity.

What mistakes? He would have Kirk and Spock captured, an occupation force on the planet and equally matched cruisers in orbit. He would have held Organia if it wasn't for the native lightbulb hippies.

[Kehlan]

(Believe me, when heard in the right context that bit that has become my sig is funny as h*ll. I figured that with all the con-goers on the board that aspects of it would have at least rated a smile, but it appears to have fallen as flat as gagh that's just been stepped on.

Actually, it makes me smile every time I read it.

There's a line in ST4 in which McCoy expresses to Kirk his concerns over Spock's abilities with the line, "He's not exactly firing on all thrusters." These are the sort of things I'm aiming for, but with a Klingon flair.

How about "His disruptors are stuck on stun." 
Although I'm not quite sure what I am implying with that one!

(sorry, can't seem to get the quotes to behave at the moment)

[Edit -- there ya go.]

[qoSagh]

I think that teeth and bat'leths can be used quite effectively together....with the right adjectives.

The Blade of his bat'leth is about as sharp and a flansopra's teeth

or

His teeth are sharp like a child's toy bat'leth

lets face it, bat'leth is one of the few Klingon words that most Trek fans know and can put a meaning to. They may not grasp the intricacies of an Honor Blade, but they will at least understand the image of a Klingon Sword. For that reason, it might be one of the best choices, not one of the worst.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Kesvirit,

I am somewhat curious actually, how did this speech/presentation go?

[Kesvirit]

Abbot, I think you misunderstand and give me too much credit... The initial question wasn’t for a speech/presentation, but for a series of fics I was working on that are as stalled as...  as stalled as...  as...  *swears*

-=- Kesv