Klingon races and racism

[tilk]

I dont agree with enterprise 4 x 16 episode regarding Klingon evolution.
I have one therory (if it hasnt been discussed yet).

I believe that the vast empire has Heavy , slight and no, ridged forehead races as well as dark and white coloured races.
This to me makes the greater sence to all klingon history. It may be that the empire only allowed Humans to see non ridged klingons so the inpact of alien exposure was not as great to humans. That the actual number of non ridged klingons is far less than other races. That their houses are smaller now but may have been greater; and they held greater influence over the council, 100 years ago.

It is the social structure that I most like to think of. It seems to tidy things up and maintain the suspension of disbelief.

[qoSagh]

Interesting theory, however I disagree based on a couple of factors.

First look at the way Klingons deal with other races, in books, on TV, in the movies. Klingons are racists, plain and simple. What often manifests itself as arogance, is actually a sense of racial superiority. Given this, I can not see any race of Klingons (regardless or ridges) willingly sharing an empire with any other race or races. Everything Klingons do involves positioning and battle for position, so I can see Klingons having multiple races all involved equally. I do agree with your theory on coloration, as we have seen Klingons with different hair and skin color.

Second, the Enterprise episode was reasonably compliant with what had already been developed by FASA for the role playing game, and had become common usage if not canon. It is also in line with the rest of the Trek universe. From the first mention of Kahn's super soldiers in Space Seed, to the revelation that Julian Bashir was an Augment, we have seen that such science and technology exists and is universally shunned by huimans. The Klingons have never been above using any tool which will ad to thier superiority in the theater of war, augmentation is just another weapon.

Third, sci-fi fandom (especially trek) sometimes falls into what I like to call the race trap. As we in the western world become more accepting of various differences, we tend to think that things will obviously become more accepting in the future. Star Trek showed us Russians, Chinese and Americans working along side each other despite the cold war going on in real life. Star Trek showed us female ship captains, despite the prohibition on female combat commands in real life. But let us not forget that Star Trek also showed us men in skirts, although they quickly abandoned that idea.

Collectively fandom often tries to impose where we hope things will be onto our shows. So the idea that Klingons are multi racial because it is a social structure that we like to think of or are comfortable with in in my opinion simply that projection. Also As a human in the early 21st century, I would theorize that what makes us comfortable is probably very different from what makes a Klingon in the 22nd and later centuries comfortable. I don't think Klingons would like any social structure that involves anything less than total dominance over other races, including thier own augments.

I think that is probably what led to the back and forth dominance we have witnessed, the constant fighting for position within society. I doubt that making humans more comfortable with thier enemies played any serious part in it.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

This has Been an Ongoing Discussion Within Many Groups, And I Find it to Be a Legitimate One...

I Was Glad (In a Way), that The Powers that be (Paramount), Finally Addressed this Issue... However, When Gene Roddenberry was asked this Question His Reply was that "Klingons have always had Ridges"... His Explanation was Based, as I Recall, on Make up Issues. He wanted Klingons to "Look" a Certain way and they were having Trouble Achieving that.

This Having Been Said, K.L.A.W. 4th Fleet has Generally Gone by the Original FASA suggestions of Genetic Engineering of Human, and Romulan Fusions for their Increased Adaptability, and Better Psychological Strength When In Conflict with these then Enemy Races (TOS Era)... Since then it has Been Accepted that Once the Milk is Spilt it is Spilt, so Now there are Recognized Post TNG era Lines that Accept or are Exclusively Fusion...

As Far as Canon Sources Go, We Have Seen that From TNG on There have Been Examples of Both Human and Romulan Genetic Compatability with Klingons...

And You are Right qoSagh, (Perhaps Unfortunately), that There has been a Great Deal of "Prejudice" associated with Those Fusions Shown on the Various Series, BUT, Distasteful or Not, We have also Seen Examples of Strange Happenings within the Empire in terms of Potentially Non-Klingon Position within the Empire... Specifically I Site the Brief Instalation of Quark, A Ferengi of all things, as Leader of a Klingon House... (DS9: House of Quark"). Not that he would have survived long enough to Enjoy it, but Still it does suggest that there is Great Reticence of Klingons to Accept non-klingons, but that if One Follows the Proper Forms it may be Possible to Succeed non-the-less. (Another Example Being Dax Fulfilling her Part in a Blood Oath with Kang, Koloth and Kor. DS9: Blood Oath. Though this Issue revolves around Sexism rather than Racisim).

Also It Should be Noted in Defense of Part of What tilk says, in that there has been Little Effort to "Hide" through Make-up the Actual Race of the Human Actors that Play Klingons, suggesting that Klingons, even Imperials, Come in Many Shapes, Sizes and Colors, Not to Mention Amount and Type of Ridges... This does not Support Wide Acceptance of Multiple "Races" within the Empire, but that There may in fact be a Great Range of Diverse Racial Characteristics amongs Klingons Shown in the T.V. Shows and Films.

As a Fan, I Do Not Support Forwarding the Idea of Klingons Being Inherrently Racist, Nor Sexist for that Matter... But in terms of the Progression From TOS to VOY it is evident that the Federation has had some sort of Impact on The Most Prejudice Side Of Klingon Kulture, and that Historically Klingons Have been Pretty Much Klingon-centic in Policy as well as Custom...

Ok... So Now I have Probably Exposed Myself Here as a Too Human, Too Liberal Not Klin-enough Fan...<Chuckle>... But Seeing as we (The Fans) are the Ones Furthering Klingon Kulture Right Now, I Think that we do have a Responsibility to Portray What we Want The Definitions to be as far as what it Means to Be Klingon, And What Klingon Values we wish to Promote...

I Know... I Know... I am The Newbie  at this Forum, but I am Highly Opinionated...<Grin>...  

[Klythe]

First look at the way Klingons deal with other races, in books, on TV, in the movies. Klingons are racists, plain and simple.

     That is one interpretation.   Another is that they are classists.   I hear Warrior this, Warrior that, at least as much as Klingon this and Klingon that...   Klingons have a "Day of Honor" to acknowldge that their opponents (and perhaps also enemies) have honor of a sort.   Why would they have that if racism was the prevalent mood?   Furthermore, Martoq would tell you there is discrimination against those whose blood is not deemed to be 'noble'. that is a classist descrimination, since Martoq is clearly as 'pureblood imperial' as any Klingon could hope for.

     The way to test if Klingon are more racist or more classist is to introduce the Klingons to another  warrior culture race that has thier own high status warriors.  See if they are embraced as opponents or as enemies.   We have seen Klingons fighting against each other as opponents.  During the civil war betwen battles warriors of both sides raised mugs and partied together as friends, only to return and fight ferociously for the next battle.   We have also seen Klingons fight amongst themselves as enemies, the DuraS would never socialize with the House of Mogh and each would bring the conflict between them whenever the any member of the two Houses should meet.

    If they automatically become intractable enemies, then they are racists.   If they become opponents, as Kor was to Kirk, then there is very little racism indicated.  Perhaps Terrans are the best test race available, the detail that out culture is not focused on warriors, and still generates warriors of high status speaks even more strongly of the Klingons being less racist than classist.  It would be easy to look at humanity and judge all humans for thier rampant weakness and a near complete lack of warrior ethic.   But we don't see that, we see as many Klingons liking and respecting Humans as vice versa.

    I wish we had seen more of the Breen.  Perhaps they could be the warrior culture to prove this, but we have little canonical contact between Klingons and Breen.

    The Jem'Hadar, while warriors, do not, cannot produce warriors of high status.   They create an interesting dichotomy for the Klingons.  Here is a race of warrior slaves.  The Klingons could see themselves reflected in them as if though a funhouse mirror.  A twisted misshapen reflection, perhaps what Klingons would be if they failed to overthrough the Hur'Iq.  Perhaps this why the Klingons loathe the JemHadar as much as they seem to do.

    This also is a nice segue into the discussion of your second point.  Augmentation.  But that will have to wait for another time.

[qoSagh]

I don't think such views make you "not Klin enough"  or even "too human" however, I think that Klingon racism is one of the most interesting aspects of Klingon culture. First it really is I suppose speciesism but racism is an easier term, that we are all to familiar with. I think this shows us how we as humans may deal with any eventual first contact scenarios.

Also look at how the Klingons accept all skin/hair colors, all ridge paterns, as Klingon...yet still maintain that sense of superiority over others. With the exception of fusions, Klingons seem to lack even the concept of different races within thier own species. This may even be why the fusions are so distastful, because augmentation is not only unpleasant but it changes something so incredibly old within the culture.

I disagree with the thought that we have a responsibility to make Klingons or any other sci-fi race for that matter, into what we want them to be. I would say the exact oposite, we have a responsibility to not polute the vision of those who created these races. First and foremost because despite our love of all things Klingon, Klingons are the bad guys in Star Trek. If we eliminate that which is bad (or different from us) then we, as viewers,  loose the full potential of a classic enemy. We like Klingons because they are Klingon not because of thier potential to become human.

There is of course room to be creative within all fandoms. Klingon fandom especially would not have survived if it weren't for fan fiction, RPG's and conventions & Clubs. However that survival is due to the fact that the majority of material has not been inconsistent with what came before. You can never truely be creative and 100% consistent at the same time, but you can manage not to be inconsistent.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Klythe,

I Like the Possible Distinction between Racism And Specism... You Mentioned the Jem'Hadar, I Do not Directly Recall the Episode of DS9 where it Occured, But there was An Eagerness Upon the Part of a Particular Jem'Hadar Soldier to Test himself against a Klingon, (Worf), To Prove that the Jem'Hadar were Superior...

This is Clearly an Example of a Nurtured (And Engineered), Belief in Superiority Based Untested on Species...

A Klingon In My Opinion, (Based on FASA and Ford), Would Want to Prove themselves, Not Because they Assume that they Are Superior, but Because it is Important to Know Your Enemy, And through that to Know Oneself.

Kuve for Instance are Not Dishonorable for Being Conquered by a Superior Force, Nor For Accepting their Rightful Role. While the Vulcans Who Submit to Becoming Tharuval are Not as well Respected because they Allow themselves to Be Subserviant as opposed to Accepting the Nature of things. This Is Certainly Classist.

Klingons Would Not However Particularly Respect the Jem'Hadar even though they are Excellent Warriors, Not Because of their Race but Because they Have No Sense of their "Own" Honor, but Fight Blindly at the Whims of their Masters. Which Could Translate a little bit into Race Issues with Fusions, Since they are (In FASA/ Ford Terms), Also Enginered to Fulfill a Particular Task.

But in Post TNG Terms, there is apparently Outright Prejudice, (Worfs Reaction to the Romulan Fusion Woman he Meets at the Refugee Camp). But was that Worfs Personal Opinions about Romulans? Or was it his Interpretation of How Klingons Feel about Non-Klingons... He Certainly did not take Issue with having Non-Klingon Lovers...

It Seems to Me that The Heart of This is DaHar itself... Understanding What it means to be Klingon... This Apparently Varies from Person to Person at least to Some Degree or Another...



qoSagh,

You are right that the Idea of Racism amongst Klingons Is Interesting, Because we can never totally Divorce ourselves from a Natural "Human" Perspective on Such Issues...

And In That I Support my Comments about it being Up to us to Define Klingon Fandom, and Kulture... I Do not Wish to Restructure Fandom, and Create a New Klingon Federation, But I do Think that there is a lot More to Klingon Kulture then the Question of Racism, And My Experience within Fandom is that Most Fans (Not Personas), are Very Openminded on Such Issues... However, It is a Dangerous Game to Imply that as Fans we Would Support The Ideals of Racist Behavior, or even Idealize it)... Which Is NOT what I Got out of your Statement BTW, But For the Uninitiated I Think That it is important that the Distinctions be Obvious, and Part of that is What we Choose as Fans to Foster...

The Possible Racist Nature of The Klingon Empire is Not Really the Part that Attracts me to Being a Fan of Klingons. Nor is it The First thing I Talk to People About when They Find out that "I Play Klingon" as a Hobby... And as Much as Anything it Comes down to This... What is Fun? What is Worth my Time? My Real Life has Plenty Of Real World Stress, and Chaos, There is Plenty of Racism All Around me Every Day, And I am Not Particularly Proud of that Aspect of Human Nature... So Why Go out of My Way to Bring it into My Recreational Life? And, I am Really Not Convinced that At Heart Klingons are Particularly Racist... Other Prejudices, However May Well Abound...<Chuckle>...

If Anything If there Are Grand Characteristics of the Klingon Persona that I Would Wish to Foster, And I Do, Then they are  A Sense of Integrity and Honor, to oneself and to ones Family. A Strong Sense of Personal Identity, and Connection to Ones Community, And Great Strength of Spirit and Individual Courage. So It is Not a Matter of "Re-painting" the Klingons in a Federatrion Light, So Much as Showing that There is Merrit in the Klingon Ideology that is Worth Expanding upon... The Works that have Inspired Such Fanatic Interest in The Klingons are Certainly Worthy, or as you have Said Klingon Fandom as a Unique aspect of the Larger Star Trek universe Would never have Caught on in the First Place.
 

[qoSagh]

When I said Klingon racism (or any sense of predjudice) was interesting, I meant that it is interesting specifically because it is different, although l;ike you said not that far removed, from us. When we see Jim Kirk, we know what makes him tick. Despite growing up in the 23rd century he is not that far removed from us in terms of motivations and feelings. But when we see Kor, or Gowron they are foreign to us, because they are alien. That is one of the things that atracted me to Klingon fandom, the chance to role play and experience a totally different culture.

I would not think that prejudice was the main factor in Klingon personality, but it is part of that picture. I also would not use it as a selling point to recruit new members, I think that wold scare away good members and probably recruit bad members. Klingons are an interesting carachter study specifically because they combine aspects that humans consider positive with those we consider negative all in one package. Think about the combination of arrogance and honor, but in the Klingon sense they work well together.



 

[Klythe]

But there was An Eagerness Upon the Part of a Particular Jem'Hadar Soldier to Test himself against a Klingon, (Worf), To Prove that the Jem'Hadar were Superior...

    I am mostly concerned with the Klingon's opinion of the Jem'Hadar.  The Je'Hadar's view of Klingons is thier concern and the concern of their Vorta Masters.

A Klingon In My Opinion, (Based on FASA and Ford), Would Want to Prove themselves, Not Because they Assume that they Are Superior, but Because it is Important to Know Your Enemy, And through that to Know Oneself.

    And that implies a certain level of respect for them.  Where a outright racist would perfer to slaughter the filth by any available means, even if it gained then no honor, an honorable warrior unburdened by that handicap might instead seek a freely offered challenge from a fellow warrior.  It would be interesting to see if (I think the challenges offered have all been coerced on captured Klingons).

     Reading the next paragraph it sounds like you are agreeing with me.  That the JemHadar's status as slaves, not just the fact that they are non-Klingons is what the Klingons hate in them, or possibly the even more lowly status as simple mindless tools of the Vorta.   I don't think we have any canonical evidence of a meeting between JemHadar who have freed themselves and Klingons, but I would expect that they would not only be tolerated and possibly eventually accepted or even respected by Klingons, once the issues of the past are cleared up (Jem'Hadar killed by brother, etc...).  If significant racism, they would easily be not be tolerated, accepted or respected.

     

But in Post TNG Terms, there is apparently Outright Prejudice, (Worfs Reaction to the Romulan Fusion Woman he Meets at the Refugee Camp). But was that Worfs Personal Opinions about Romulans? Or was it his Interpretation of How Klingons Feel about Non-Klingons... He Certainly did not take Issue with having Non-Klingon Lovers...

     Worf has many good personal reasons not to like Rommies.  The did kill his family after all.  His father was accused of being in cahoots with them, so any indication that Worf did not have a problem with Romulans would have bolstered the strength of that accusation...

    I seem to remember that the DuraS were known before the civil war to have been on freindly terms with the Romulans, and yet they still had sufficient influence to stage a walkout of the entire Klingon High Council in support of his illegitimate heir.  This would indicate, at that time, a majority of the powers of the Klingon empire were not so racist against Rommies that they would have switched sides to support Gowron.   Later when it was discovered that they were accepting Romulan assistance during the war, then thier support evaporated, but that has nothing to do with racism against Romulans.

It Seems to Me that The Heart of This is DaHar itself... Understanding What it means to be Klingon... This Apparently Varies from Person to Person at least to Some Degree or Another...

    That.  And also the major (if not the entire) purpose of the forums.

First and foremost because despite our love of all things Klingon, Klingons are the bad guys in Star Trek. If we eliminate that which is bad (or different from us) then we, as viewers, loose the full potential of a classic enemy. We like Klingons because they are Klingon not because of thier potential to become human.

    Unfortunately, I hate to have to update you on this, but Klingons were the bad guys.   As of TUC and TNG they are now the 'wavering allies', they are the type that will go off and do thier own thing for a while, but in the end, when the Federation most needs them, will come back and join the Feddies again.   And this is a darn shame.  Klingons make far better opponents and enemies than allies.

    We are too familar for audiences to accept us as the bad guys.   Instead the hiveminded Borg and the inscrutable Dominion are the bad guys.   Even the Treacherous Romulans have even stopped being the bad guys, with Spock's re-unification efforts, and thier fighting at our side during the Dominion War...   Instead it takes a renegade human, a clone of Picard and a Romulan slave race to be 'the bad guys'.    The Klingon Empire as a whole has not been the bad guys since ST3:TSFS.   Even when Gowron disovled the 'Grand Alliance', the Klingons were still not 'the  bad guys'.  The Klingons were 'The other good guys, the ones who aren't enlightened enough to be going about it the right way'.

     More the pity that we are being made more familiar, be it either by being racist (something commonly attributed to other humans, but rarely ourselves), or not racist (a human ideal commonly related to).    It is much more alien to use a not so commonly bemoaned social ill, one that was more commonly bemoaned a few centuries ago, but is to some extent  dealt with, although far from entirely.   I think the idea of Klingon racism is a bit boring and too current-y.  Klingons are highly anacroninstic, a tribal\feudal culture with interstellar technology.   Why try to shoehorn them into a modern problem when a more age appropriate problem from a similar level of cultural development fits them better?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Hey as A Total Side Bar, I am Really Enjoying these Discussion... Thanks...



Klythe,

I Agree that the Discussion is about the Klingon Perspective, But I Offered My Opinion about the Jem'Hadar In An Effort to Show the Difference In Motivations... Personally I Hope that the Jem'Hadar are Done for All intents...

But Should "Liberated" Jem'Hadar Ever Make the Scene, I Wonder if they would Even Choose to Be Warriors? However, I Am In Agreement that A Klingon Is Much More Likely to Respect the Strength of An Opponant Who Chooses their Goals and Persues them Aggressively then One Who Is A Mindless Drone...

As to Worf Having Every Reason to Dislike/Distrust or Whatever, Romulans... Absolutely, Yet I Have A Feeling that Worfs Tedious Struggle To Understand His Own DaHar as it Applies to His Relationships with Other klingons Makes Him Prone To Extreme Interpretations of Being a Klingon... Does a Klingon Hate ALL Romulans Because they are Romulan? Not Likely, They are Notoriously Deceitful, and Have Proven it again and again, So There is Mistrust Based on Experience (At least as a Kulture), But I Doubt it would Be Attributed to the Biology of The Species... (Not Saying that-that is What you Meant, Just an Observation)...

qoSagh,

I See... I May Have Misinterpreted a Little... Not that I Got the Idea that you were Purposefully Idealizing Racism, But that You Might Be Justifying it because it was Canon... And You are 100% Right on about The Recruitment Issues, Everytime I Hear Someone Say that they See the Klingons as the Bikers of the Quadrant, I Think to Myself, "This Person Likely has Some Preconception about the Term Biker Too"...<Chuckle>... But I Have Encountered (In Small Numbers), Some Fans Who See Klindom as an Excuse to Prove that Racism is Righteous, or at Least that I Must Believe in it as a Positive Force Because "Klingons" Are not as Distracted by Political Correctness as Feddies are... I Find that to Be Distasteful On Multiple Levels, Since What Is Honor and Integrity If Not the Political Correct Dogma of Such Dishonorables as the House of DuraS... Anything can be Rationalized If One Tries... Even Christians Often Say that the Devil Will Quote You Scripture... It is Ones Habitual Actions Which Prove Themselves in the Long Run...

Ok... I am Getting Off Topic... But this is a lot of Fun!