Sto-vo-Kor

[qoSagh]

While we have often discussed the role of non warriors in the empire, what about the role of non warriors in the afterlife? Do non warriors get to go to this afterlife or somewhere else? How about non linguistic life (animals)?

I bring this up because I have come across two references to individuals entering Sto-vo-Kor recently, neither one by combat in the traditional sense. Both I am convinced are due to the writer simply thinking that Sto-vo-Kor is analogous to human (Christian) heaven. I disagree with that entirely flawed concept.

I just started reading a book dedicated to the autors deceased cat, who he says has earned a place in Sto-vo-Kor (if there is such a place for cats) due to a long battle with illness. I just also got an e-mail about the real passing of a real human from a fan club, after a battle with cancer. The writer said we should all howl for the deceased, and that they had gone to Sto-vo-Kor.

I will start by saying I have lost my share of family and friends to Cancer in real life. But I am not sure that a battle with an illness, any illness, is what a Klingon has in mind when thinking of a death in battle. But that brings up the question of entry criteria. Is a battle against another lving combatant required? Is simply an honorable life all that is required?

I remember in the Final Reflection, the question being raised of non-Klingon servants accompanying thier masters into the black fleet. The servant in question did not believe in any afterlife so did not believe he would go there. That did not stop the Klingon master from believing that he would go there, anyway. If one can bring a servant, can one bring a favorite steed or even a pet cat? Or is the capability of using language a requirement?

[Kesvirit]

I have come across two references to individuals entering Sto-vo-Kor recently, neight one by combat in the traditional sense. Both I am convinced are due to the writer simply thinking that Sto-vo-Kor is analogous to human (Christian) heaven. I disagree with that entirely flawed concept.

*grump* More specifically, I suspect that the writer has confused Sto-Vo-Kor with Valhalla. It is a misconception as abundant as Worf’s nervous breakdowns.

I just started reading a book dedicated to the autors deceased cat, who he says has earned a place in Sto-vo-Kor (if there is such a place for cats) due to a long battle with illness. *** But I am not sure that a battle with an illness, any illness, is what a Klingon has in mind when thinking of a death in battle. But that brings up the question of entry criteria. Is a battle against another lving combatant required? Is simply an honorable life all that is required?

The battle with death is one that we must all ultimately lose. “Fighing a good fight” against it has the same results as any other less glorious or honorable course of action. }}: \ If the mere acts of battling illness and death were enough to guarantee one a place in some wonderful afterlife, such a place would be, to say the least, the least exclusive club paradise in town. Does this not defeat the purpose of having such a place where only the most worthy go to collect  their eternal reward for living an exemplary life?

While we have often discussed the role of non warriors in the empire, what about the role of non warriors in the afterlife? Do non warriors get to go to this afterlife or somewhere else? How about non linguistic life (animals)?

I believe it all to be
A) Metaphorical, and
B) Another form of social control to keep the strong strong and the weak in their place. A way for those in power to gain and maintain control over others in this life by promising them “rewards” they have no way of delivering in the next. What do the specifics matter, if they can never be verified? Those who design the board and define the limits of the movements of the pieces of any form of zha are more likely to be the victors of it.

Of course Admiral Kethas said Tirian would continue to be his kuve on Kethas’ Black Ship. It is not surprising that Tirian disagrees with his master on such matters. Doing otherwise means nonchalantly submitting to a thousand maimings times by the Force Leader who so gleefuly tore off his wings. Though he is reluctantly resigned to his fate in this life, he is clearly not eager to repeat it in countless others until the end of time.

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

I had forgotten Tirian's name. Although in his case, I seem to remember it was his race and not just him as an individual that did not believe in the afterlife.

As for Valhalla, well, that confusion probably is the fault of Michael Jan Freidman who basically made Kahless into a viking, but I've written enough of that in the appropriate topics. I think the confusion is between heaven and Sto-vo-Kor though, because I don't think the vikings were to keen on the sick and lame entering Valhalla. Some of the confusion may be of course due to the unKlingon Mr. Woof who when he thought Geordi had died when some boxes fell on him, exclaimed that he was happy he had died in official service. I don't know how or when I will die, but from a both Klingon and human perspective I hope it is not because I was overpowered by a stack of crates.

I do understand the sentiment (if not thought) that is put forward in these statements. I just think they further dilute that which we know to be Klingon. A warrior based afterlife is one of the few constants we have from FASA to Paracanon, which gives it a bit more creedance in my book. Fans do need to understand that being Klingon is not just like being in starfleet with ridges, despite what Paraborg tried to force down our throats. I think that maintaining the fact/fiction seperation is also much easier when the two thought paterns/belief systems are far apart not merged into a donkey in a tashlan suit.
 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

qoSagh,

The Real Question here is, Does anyone have the Right to Assert that the Authors Cat has Not Gone to Sto-vo-Kor?

When the Heavens Gaters Assembled their "Away Team", there was a lot of Anger amongst My Co-workers about The Insanity, or Cult-ist Or what ever Influences which must have Overwhelmed them All... They Were Equally Outraged when My Comment was a Simple, "Hey, I Hope they Made It".

Not Because I Supported their Belief System, but Because there is no, and can be no, Imperical Evidence of the After Life... So How can We Know Which Author Got it Right in Trek...? Who Can Say that Klingons are any More Aware of the "Truth" of Post-death Existence then anyone else, or Who/What Can Go/Be there with them...?

If We can not Agree as Citizens of this Planet, What is and is not True of the Here after, (or lack thereof), I Am not Inclined to assume that an Auther of Fiction, Has Any More Authority of it...

So at the Risk of Upsetting Folks that may have a Stake in this Answer, I Hope the Cat Made it...<Smirk>...

[qoSagh]

This is what happens when I start reading old topics again......

I too would like to think the cat made it, but that is not really the point. Just as the afterlife is a matter of personal or group belief here on earth, it is likely the same in the empire. But my original question was based not on the lack of evidence that we usually get in these things, but on the evidence that we do have. Based on what we know of Sto-vo-kor, do cats go there? Do the sick and infirm go there?

We know from FASA that the Klingons believed in the Black Fleet, we know from Paraborg that they believe in Sto-vo-kor, so as far a most Klingons are concerned the afterlife itself is not up for debate. But what is the proverbial key to Sto-vo-kor?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Well I Suppose One Answer Comes From the Next Gen Episode "Ethics", (A Frequently Quoted Episode on these Boards...<Grin>...) In Which After an Accident Where Worf has His Spine Crushed leaving Him Paralyzed, Worf Asks that he be Permitted/Assisted in the Hegh'bat a Ritualistic Suicide for those Who Can No Longer "Fight" the Good Fight...

This Suggests that a Klingon would Rather Not Exist in a Drawn out Process of Dieing... Presumeably to Avoid Being a Drain on the Resources of Ones Family, or The Empire... So Perhaps if the Sick and Infirm are Willing to Go through with the Hegh'bat they are Still Honored Dead?

Also According to the Next Gen Ep heart of Glory, When Worf Gives us our First Glimpse of the Death Howl, we are Informed that it is Meant not in Mourning, but as a Warning to the Dead that a "Warrior" Is on their Way...

So the Canon Implication certainly seems to Orient on the Warrior...

However,

In Voyager's "Barge of the Dead", B'Elanna's Mother Miral is Never Identified (To My Recolection) as a Warrior Specifically, And Certainly B'Elanna's own Warrior Status is Questionable... But in the End B'Elanna "Saves" Miral by Volunteering to Take her Place in Gre'thor... But is Then Addressed at the Last Minute by Miral who Tells Her that she can "Save Herself" by Living With Honor and Discipline Like a True Klingon... NOT Like a "Warrior" But like a True Klingon... Interesting... Especially Since B'Elanna is Half Human...

But CAN an Animal, a Non Sentient, Behave With Honor and Discipline? I Would Argue No... That Such Distinctions are the Pervue of those with the Intellect to "Choose" How they Would Behave...


BUT, Since we are NOT Klingons, But Humans Who Like to Dress Up in Funny Costumes, and Play at such Honors, And Since we are Unlikely to Encourage our Sick and Infirm to Commit Suicide (Though there is certainly Precedant for Doing So), I Would Argue that a Death Howl For a Comrad Who has Fallen From Disease, instead of Battle Still Deserves Such Honors... Because we ARE Humans First and Role-play as Klingons Second... (Hopefully), Yet Such Rituals do help Us To "deal" with the RL Effects of Personal Loss...

[qoSagh]

I would argue just the opposite, but for the same reason. Since I am a HUMAN first and a (Role Player) Klingon second, I would think that participating in whatever human death ritual a fallen friend is sent off with would be exactly the thing to do. Now speaking as one who has performed Klingon memorials, I am always careful to use phrases like "died with honor" and not "died in battle" unless I know of some sort of specific circumstance.

That being said, I do not think that being a warrior is a requirement, as much as living an honorable life and dying an honorable death. I think the method of how one dies may have a lot to do with how one lived. If Klingons do not want to live if they can not fight the good fight, then one who chooses to live with a terminal illness might not be seen by Klingons to be living honorably. The death Howl might be a warrior specific practice, but perhaps it is to warn all in Sto-vo-kor (warrior and non warrior alike) that a warrior is comming. We have never heard any reference to the after life being divided except by honor/dishonor. If we add warrior/non warrior, we are now into at least four different places one might go.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I do not know how such posts get by me unresponded to for so long...<Chuckle>...

In any event, First let me say that I think that you are prudant to not use the term "Died in Battle", if no such situation exists, though in the case of Disease, it could be argued that a battle has in fact taken place... The difference might be in terms of having made an active choice to participate...

I am not sure that I quite understood the following:

I would argue just the opposite, but for the same reason. Since I am a HUMAN first and a (Role Player) Klingon second, I would think that participating in whatever human death ritual a fallen friend is sent off with would be exactly the thing to do. Now speaking as one who has performed Klingon memorials, I am always careful to use phrases like "died with honor" and not "died in battle" unless I know of some sort of specific circumstance.

If you are saying that should your Real World Human friend die of natural causes, then observing a Human death ritual would be appropriate. In other words, while at the grave site, in a Church or other religious building, during an actual ceremony it is not a good Idea to break out in a spontaneous Klingon Death Howl... Then I agree. Anything that is Real World, should be respected, as there is a good chance that there will be those involved who are grieving as Humans and may not be a part of Klin-dom...

If on the other hand the discussion really is about rather someone "Deserves" a Death Howl, if they die from *Natural" causes including disease, then it is probably very subjective... I would not be inclined to deliver a Klingon Death rite of any sort for my grandmother, because she would not really want it, and might even be affraid of it... While my mother, who is a Trek fan and even a Klingon on Occasion, will definately Have some Klingon honors coming her way when the time comes... But there could be those who never met her that would argue that she did not *Deserve* a Warriors Death Howl because she was never (To my Knowledge) in physical combat... I have seen her nearly life long battle with a very real and deadly disease, a sometimes quite debilatating disease, and she has not given in to Fear or hopelessness, she has litterally "Battled" it for decades longer than the "Medical Experts" ever thought she could... And continues to do so... In my mind she will certainly be *Worthy*...

Generally, where I have seen death howls performed have been at conventions, or other gatherings where people are somehow connected to the person through fandom, thus the Honor is recognized for what it is... (And rarely, has the person been a litteral Real World Warrior), In fact I have only seen One example of a Death Howl even being used in "Role-play" so to speak, where an actual Real World death was not involved...

Regardless, I am less inclined to argue that there could be as many as Four different places that someone might go... I see the possibility however of at least Three...

The Black Fleet (Absolutely Warrior exclusive, though possibly not based exclusively on 'Honor' per se')...
Sto-Vo-Kor (Absolutely limited to those who Die with Honor, but not necessarily limited to those who die in battle).
ghe"or The realm of the dishonored dead.

I suppose some of the question actually must be geared towards rather such *Places* are really to be viewed as rewards and punishments, or rather Klingons would see these as simply being the natural end results of certain types of life choices...

I am inclined to favor this last as being likely... The Black Fleet, Sto-Vo-Kor, ghe''or they simply are what they are and your choices determine your destination, and possibly your preferences, since the chIrgh does hold that One who dies both Honorably AND in Battle does choose between the Black Fleet or Sto-Vo-Kor...

[qoSagh]

What I meant by the real life thing, was two fold. Yes I do consider it inappropriate to do the Death Howl in Church, but that would be the secondary part. The primary party would be that When I die, I would hope that those who can, would come to my funeral instead of waiting for the next convention. The qaptaQ death ritual, has been constructed specifically around the real world need to sometimes delay the role play aspects of life and death. As a matter of fact, since the first performance of such a ritual was around the time of what would have been the deceased's next birthday, that was written into the roleplay.

But the circumstances of our deaths are likely unknown to us. I would like to think that I will not be attributed a Death in Battle, simply for having played at being a Klingon.

As for the locations within the afterlife, the qaptaQ look at them all as linked, but not the same. The Black Fleet is where warriors go, to battle everlasting. I always seem to think of this as old time sailing ships, upon a great black sea, but the fleet may change as technology does. Sto-Vo-Kor, is a place of firm land, and may even be a port of call for the Black Fleet. ghe"or  is a place that is near by to Sto-vo-kor, but separated somehow. Perhaps the Barge of the Dead, stops at both Ports, whichever is appropriate.

[Klythe]

     Though the counterpoint is that spouces, servants and potentially pets may come with you to the Black Fleet.  Again using Tirian from "The Fianl Reflection" as the precident.  Clearly, Tirian would not have expected to have "died in battle", and yet, he shared in his master's fate, only his death was distinctly less glorious and much more cruel.  In fact Vrenn explained to him that any race may enter the Black Fleet. 

Although in his case, I seem to remember it was his race and not just him as an individual that did not believe in the afterlife.

     The only other character Ford wrote from that race, as far as I know was Tellihu, a Starfleet officer who did not comment on the matter.

But you may be misremembering what Tirian said:

"My people mostly believe in a next life", Tirian said. withou loking up from his work, "though there are not starships in it.  But we elvolved separately, and if one world's idea is true, I suppose all must be."

.

   I looked it up(pg 65-66 if you want to reread it), because it's particularly it's important to me, since I made a Withiki character I'll be roleplaying for a story between Enterprise and TOS.   He's a dentist! 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I suppose I simply do not remember the details of that discussion... With Vrenn talking about how "Any" race might find themselves in the Black Fleet that is...

Perhaps it is a matter of rather one actually "Serves" in the Black Fleet, or rather one Serves one who "Serves" in the Black Fleet. In another words a slave in heaven is still a slave...? (Never mind that the Black Fleet is not necessarily an analog to Heaven of course, but the point is valid I think)...

[Klythe]

(Never mind that the Black Fleet is not necessarily an analog to Heaven of course, but the point is valid I think)...

   And that Kuve is not an analog for slavery.

    Krenn also said in his Farewell to epetai-Tagore that the one would always have a place on any ship he commanded, in the White or Black Fleet. Tagore was not strictly speaking a warrior, but he also was not kuve or Krenn's consort.

    The Black fleet and Sto-vo-kor in my opionion should be kept as seperate belief systems about the nature of the next life.  Much as Heaven and Nirvana are entirely different visions of the next life and not an either-or choice.