"Enterprise" and the Klingon Forehead Question

[tapez_sonof_chang]

maybe the new enterprise series will solve this problem

[voraq]

That's what I'm hoping.

 Augments gave a reason for Klingons to attempt genetic manipulation.  Think how the High Command felt when they heard that 2 genetically engineered Humans, empty-handedly, killed 12 Klingons with disruptors.

[Klythe]

I would tend to discount the Klingons interest in a large scale Genetic Engineering program, whether the forehead smoothing was done intentionally or as a side-effect form a Genetic Engineering initiaive.  In all other aspects we see Klingons perferring more direct, more personal fighting over less personal forms of combat.  Engineering someone else to do your fighting for you is dishonorable and cowardly.  That belief is why I tend to avoid the olschool 'fusions' model.

    The biggest problem with Geneticaly Engineered warriors, no matter who creates them is that they are by definition different from thier creators, and so society places them in a different category.  Once GE warriors are they instead of part of us, then there will inevitably be a fight over who controls the GE warriors destiny, them, or us.  
 
    I happen to believe there is a school of thought that the Klingon Empire will always grow at least until it reaches the bounds of the Galaxy.  It is flows naturally from Ford's Komerex concept and implied in many other places.    Genetically Engineered warriors are not entirely Klingon and thus they are themselves a threat to the Manifest Destiny of Klingons.   A handful of exceptions may exist, but you wouldn't see a hundred GE warriors marching in formation behind Governor Kor as he occupies Organia.  

    Even if two GE hyoomins wipe out a dozen Klingons, or millions die fighting the Jem'Hadar, the large scale use of genetically engineered Klingons as regular combat troops does not sound very likely.  At no point to we see Klingons attempt to Genetically alter Klingons to fight the Dominion Shapeshifters and their Jem'Hadar.

    Possibly, if the Klingons had only just discovered Genetic Engineering Technology, and hadn't had time to consider the ramifications, but I do not believe that the Klingons would not have encountered GE tech until the late 23rd Century.  The Final Reflection shows use of Genetic Engineering in severely limited and special circumstances some 40-50 years before TOS.

    Surgical removal and reconstruction for deceptive purposes is a much better bet.  Considering it was a favoured tactic of Starfleet in every Star Trek series(I can think of examples from every one but Voyager, but I didn't watch much Voyager).  In fact, this was even used by the Klingons canonically in "The Trouble with Tribbles" with Arne Darvin...

    Of course I get to cop out in TFCs universe, since we are a parody we don't have to match canon exactly.  There are mulitple Klingon species, some have forehead ridges, one or two have horns, the rest just have really pointy teeth and claws.

[voraq]

Possibly, if the Klingons had only just discovered Genetic Engineering Technology, and hadn't had time to consider the ramifications....

My thoughts are that the Klingon scientific community started looking into genetic engineering in response to recent events. (recent being ENT era)

....but I do not believe that the Klingons would not have encountered GE tech until the late 23rd Century.

The Klingons have had major problems with the genetically engineered Suliban since the first season of ENT and up until the second or third episode of this season.   Add to that the recent incident with the genetically engineered Terrans.  

Also take the fact that Klingon/Terran political relationships have been horrible for the entire 3 years they have known about each other.  Would you believe the Terran Archer, who escaped from our prison, when he said that it was not part of a starfleet plot?

At no point to we see Klingons attempt to Genetically alter Klingons to fight the Dominion Shapeshifters and their Jem'Hadar.

In my theory the exploration of GE in between ENT era and TOS era resulted in the virus that caused the entire population to have smooth foreheads. At that point the Empire saw how foolish the endevor was  and stopped the reaserch in genetic engineering.  Once the retrovirus was found the Empire vowed not to use genetic engineering in response to threats ever.  Which would explain why there were no GE warriors in the Dominion War.
 

[voraq]

I just recently heard that of a rumor floating around subspace that the 5th season of ENT might have a Klingon episode arc that will address this issue.

It is just a rumor.  One I'm sure was started by a Terran.

If it is true I hope the Federation people responsible have had spies monitering the many discussions throughout subspace by Klingons, like us, speculating on this issue.

[Klythe]

Unfortunately the source of the rumor is not so easily dismissed... This Article  on TrekWeb gives further information.  

[qoSagh]

Well, it's not a rumor anymore....sort of. TV Guide lists the episode as being (at least in my area) Friday Fedbruary 18 at 8:00pm. Interestingly enough TVG lists nothing about Klingons they just lits Phlox being kidnapped by aliens who want him to kill a mutated virus. it features John Schuck as a character named Antaak.

As long as they don't do the rabid tribble bit me thing, I guess I can live with it. A virus mutating at leasts show the superior genetic engineering that FASA spoke of. I am optomistic about the names,being that Antaak seems to follow the A-M-K patern but we will have to see just who the character is to be sure.

I had thought this was going to be a two part episode, but there is no mention of such in TVG. Anyone have any clues?

[q'Rhahk]

OK are qoSaqh and I the only ones who saw the episode?

[SoplaHtaHwI']

OK are qoSaqh and I the only ones who saw the episode?

Ofcourse you're not.
I saw the episode as well.
I'm not too sure about the way it was worked, but it is now canon...

[qoSagh]

At least it is canon until the next Trek series comes out, or possibly next week when Part 2 is on. Suffice to say as I posted in the new topic Vindication, there is a chance that they got it right, most likely by accident, but never the less right.

[Kesvirit]

OK are qoSaqh and I the only ones who saw the episode?

Why subject oneself to such superfluous pain endurance tests when one can read the oh-so-much-more-entertaining “blow-by-blow-me” recaps at http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show.cgi?show=71? }}: P

Kai kassai Keckler! }}: D

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

Interesting recaps. Many of them along the same lines of what I was thinking. That being said, since when does a Klingon run from pain? Pain and suffering are our just rewards. If this were not so Star Trek would still be Star Trek, and this thread would be a moot point.

[Parablue]

Startrek Enterprise already explained the question, Klingon's having human augment genetic engineering, a virus that infected millions and cured by Doctor Phlox, but those Klingon retain human foreheads, but no augment strength.
After the virus have changed many, these human forehead Klingons sustain human emotions, together with human cunning personalities. They were probably the best weapon used against the Federation. In TOS, the only Klingons Captain Kirk encountered were human forehead Klingons, the ridge-headed Klingons were allocated to due with other species, including the Romulan threat.
However, by the 24th century (Star Trek Next Generation onwards), the human genetic engineering gene pool effects have started to diminish over generations of Klingon's offspring. Human forehead Klingons were either too few in numbers, or those remaining have decided to go for cosmetic surgeries to have ridges on their foreheads.
Klingons take pride in their heritage, and to have human genes infiltrate is dishonorable, yet they can't discriminate against millions of human forehead Klingons in their population. When Klingons started to join the Federation, it's Federation policies to not teach much on human forehead Klingons, that would probably be one of the terms criterion from the Klingon Empire, so as not to put the Klingons on shame (Remember, it's Federation policies to respect other's culture).
But within Starfleet Academy, rumors and stories are told within, and it's something Lt Wolf prefer not to talk about.
In DS9 ("Trials and Tribble-ations"), O'Brien's and Dr. Bashir' could not resist the temptation and started their foolish 'ignorant' jokes on Worf.
Bashir: "Those are Klingons?" (He couldn't resist)
Waitress: "All right. You boys have had enough."
Odo: "Mister Worf?" (Real ignorance)
Worf: "They are Klingons, and it is a long story." (He probably had to tell the story too many times in Starfleet Academy)
O'Brien: "What happened? Some kind genetic engineering?" (Playing along)
Bashir: "A viral mutation?" (He couldn't resist again)
Worf: "We do not discuss it with outsiders." (An answer Worf have replied numerous times)

Worf: " His real name is Arne Darvin. He is a Klingon altered to look human."
Dax: " His surgeon does nice work."

The alteraton to 'look human' was more complex than physical appearance, there were also DNA changes, as some medical screening would be required for all Starfleet personnel. That's what they mean.

This is my explanation for the forehead problem in Startrek, though it's plain obvious the REAL reason for the changes were plainly a filming issue due to technological upgrades over the years, and the directors trying to find ways to explain the inconsistencies...

[qoSagh]

Startrek Enterprise already explained the question,

Yes and that explanation and how is compares to the various previous ones is what we were discussing.

[Kehlan]

Startrek Enterprise already explained the question,

Yes and that explanation and how is compares to the various previous ones is what we were discussing.

Yes, and sadly we are stuck with that pathetic excuse for an explanation.  Its been on screen so its canon, thats what they tell us...

Well, weve seen a Klingon skull as well.. it was also on Enterprise, so they can't claim they are making their own canon and ignoring stuff from other shows...

guess what - it had ridges on it... yep, ridges in the bone... not the flesh surronding the skull, not softer cartilage, in the actual bone of the skull.

So... we have a disease that can melt the klingon ridges off the skull without killing them?  I dont think so! no matter how tough Klingons are, if it melts your skull you are dead!  But this virus not only melts your skull without killing you or doing permanent damage, it even leaves you with a nice new hairstyle.  Even if my some miracle you survived the melting of your skull, wouldn't you at the very least be bald on the front upper part of your head, since Klingons dont have hair there?  Maybe the Klingons should be selling the augment virus to Terrans as a cure for baldness....

and... it gets better... you can cure it... and when you cure it you magically grow new ridges on the bones of your skull and again it leaves you with a nice neat hairstyle.

but hey, its canon!

[KHruj]

Just a guess on my part, but... 'Flathead' seems to be an insult in Klingon. Maybe there is a portion of the Klingon race that is roughly equivalent to a 'Hillbilly' and these happened to be the group of Klingons the Federation ran into in the early episodes?

[El Payaso Malo]

Just a guess on my part, but... 'Flathead' seems to be an insult in Klingon. Maybe there is a portion of the Klingon race that is roughly equivalent to a 'Hillbilly' and these happened to be the group of Klingons the Federation ran into in the early episodes?

What does that say of Kor, Kang and Koloth? Did they get surgery and manage to trade their hillbilly status with that of nobility?