Klingon ranks

[Tedra_deArr]

I don't know if it is the right category here but please have a look and tell me what you think, did some research, but no real clear answers were given  :unsure:

klingon Ranks

[qoSagh]

Ranks are an interesting animal, Most of what was out there was very Club specific, but all cerived from the FASA game manuals. These were just adding new pictures of insignia to the standard Federation rank table, which of course came from the American military. Other than a few changes in the name of the top dog (Usually an Admiral of some type) they were mostly the same.

Then Klingon for the Galactic Traveler came out. In one fell swoop Okrand shot down all those formats by saying there was one combined force, not a seperate Navy & Marines. He listed a Rank Table that combined ranks from both into one workable format. I actually like it better. I have never understood other than for game convience why Klingons as a race/culture would have developed a structure identical to humans there but not in everything else.

This table actually saved me some trouble in a roleplaying game. I was playing a Klingon Admiral. The Game MAster stated that there had never been a Klingon Admiral shown on Star Trek, only Generals, so put a new player playing a General in charge of our forces. When the book came out I had a cannon source for Admiral, and it out ranked General.

As for insignia, I think most of the ranks in KGT, were in the FASA table, but some were equivilent to each other, it probably would not be too difficult to figure out insignia for that table. THen the trouble is in finding it. There were some old red & gold pins made for Captain & Admiral. I've seen some silver pins for Captain and Commander. Then there are the Resin Casts, if you can find them they are great, but alas they are a fan production, so may be hard to locate.

[Kesvirit]

My only real exception to the rank listings as provided by zan Tedra's comparison chart is that the rank of Yeoman should be included in the Starfleet column and deleted from the Klingon heirarchy. There have been multiple screen Yeomen on Starfleet ships, but I do not recall ever having come across the rank used within Imperial forces.  But then I am far from having seen every episode or read every book.

With apologies to zan qoSagh for any redundancies, the reason no clear answers were given is that are no clear answers. Every database, RPG, Sim, and fan organization seems to have similar but far from identical rank heirarchies. I urge you to take a look at these samples for comparison:
-- Insignia used by StarFire Region of the Ring of Fire Fleet. Includes Marine enlisted insignia and Federation equivalents.
-- Klingon ranks circa 2300 (branch not given) with Starfleet equivalents  
-- Comparison of Klingon, Starfleet, Marine, and Rihannsu rank heirarchies as used by the UCIP.
-- Rank System of the Khemorex Klinzhai

qoSagh: Then Klingon for the Galactic Traveler came out. In one fell swoop Okrand shot down all those formats by saying there was one combined force, not a seperate Navy & Marines.

Okrand is a linguist, not a military historian or one otherwise qualified to organize armed forces. As far as both Trek and Klindom go, I think that one system is as valid as another as long as it is used with internal consistancy.

-=- Kesvirit

[Klythe]

It is entirely possible that after Khitomer the Klingon Imperial Navy and Imperial Marines were disbanded and re-organised into the KDF.   This could have been due to a Klingon Civil War after Azetbur was declared Chancellor.   Klingon 'Defensive Fleet' just smacks of Terran influence, like post WW2 Japan... The vanquished have thier military and government restructured by thier conquerers...

    A yeoman on Federation ships is required because of all the paperwork the captain is required by Starfleet Beaucracy.   Paperwork does not sound very Klingon to me...  Perhaps we should look to the origins of the term to decide if they would be needed on a 23rd/24rth Century starship...

[Kesvirit]

Klythe: A eyoman on Federation ships is required because of all the paperwork the captain is required by Starfleet Beaucracy. Paperwork does not sound very klinogn to me...

This is largely why I thought it should be removed from the Klingon rank heirarchy. Whether or not the rank of Yeoman was eventually phased out of Starfleet, I have a hard time seeing Klingons pushed around by their own paper. They are more likely to use other, more... subtle means of recording events for posterity, when those events are desired to be recorded at all.

For what it is worth, on one of my two fictive ships there is one person who serves as both ship's clerk and an aide-de-camp to the commanding officer. And that is it for clerical staff. Department heads are on their own.

Klythe: Perhaps we should look to the origins of the term to decide if they would be needed on a 23rd/24rth Century star ship...

Unfortunately the OED is by subscription only now, and the Forum software cannot handle the diacritics of the Dictionary.com entry for "yeoman". But the two that seem most relevant are:
2.  A petty officer performing chiefly clerical duties in the U.S. Navy.
3.  An assistant or other subordinate, as of a sheriff.

Draw what conclusions you will.

-=- Kesv

[Tedra_deArr]

if there is no yeoman, what stands the ne' for then?

Anyway I used actually all except the Khemorex Klinzhai, from which I thought it didn't fit quite in the sheme

[Klythe]

I believe that the idea that ne' should correspond well with a 21st Century Terran rank is silly.   Simply a ne' is more than a cadet, and less than an lagh(which is analogous to Ensign, but not necessarily exactly the same thing).   A ne' could be a cadet that has completed a training cruise without distinction that would earn them the rank of lagh.   Maybe, you are only a cadet until you complete your training at the Academy...   There is a real danger in defining the concepts expressed by Klingon words as being exactly equivalent to a Terran or more specifically an English-speaker's concept.


    That is why I perfer the oldschool ranks, and to construct my own ranks as needed to fill in the blanks.

Thought Admiral -  a master strategist.  Analogous to a Profession Emiritus at a super presigious University.  A noticible difference is that a Thought Admiral need not be retired to gain his rank.
Thought Master -  master thinker in less martial fields such as Medicine.
Operations Master -  Super High ranking Intelligence Official.
Force Leader -  The exact size and nature of a force was never specified, but this rank has more 'flavour' than "Colonel" or the enlisted equivallent "Commendant".
XXXX Specialist-  While a specialist is a modern military rank used for a soldier who is not quite ready to be a corporal, but is more experinced/responsible than a private, the adding of the field name, (ie. Surgeon Specialist, Communications Specialist, etc) emphasizes that these warriors may not be as broadly trained as other officers.

 

[qoSagh]

I have always thought that the translations of ranks were more about where they fell in thier own table than in the specific duties. Look at the American military where the different branches have different ranks that sometimes wear the same insignia. Collectively they have the same paygrade so they are equivilent but they are far from the same.

The Klingon rank of ne' is probably translated as Yoeman less because of the paperwork but more because it is the lowest officer position in a "combined" service such as starfleet is.

Now I would guess that the other ranks are translated to where they are because if the new table is a mix of ranks from the Imperial Navy & Imperial Marines, those had probably been translated before. So when the two services joined as zan Klythe has said, there were already established terran words for all these ranks.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Like the FASA Rank Structure because it Sets a Standard that can be Easily Analogued from Service to Service... When I Started Working on the Rank Structure of the Clergy, (Within my Fan Group), I Met a lot of Initial Resistance because the Clergy is Not really Military... Yet Most Religious Organizations of the Real World do Have Clear Command Structures, So I Felt that it was Useful for Club Members to have an "Idea" of Where they Fell within any Rank Structure, Even if It Applies Primarily to Other Clergy.

I Do not, ...<Sheepish Grin>... Own a Copy of the Galactic Traveler, So I Can not Comment on Marc Okrands Statements about Rank or Service Disticntions, Except to say that I Agree that He is an Exceptional Linguist, and an Excellent Resource, but there are Enough Different ways of Doing things within Fandom from Group to Group to not Be Over Worried that there is not a "Standard" Format for Rank... Of Course it would be an Interesting World Where a Group as Diverse as Klingon Fans could come up with such a Standard...<Chuckle>...

[El Payaso Malo]

The ranks in Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, from highest to lowest, are:
'aj admiral
Sa' general
totlh commodore
'ech brigadier
HoD captain
la' commander
Sogh lieutenant
lagh ensign
ne' yeoman

bu' sergeant
Da' corporal

It says no one holding a rank below this has a title.
Unfortunately, it is unknown where colonel would fall into this command structure, or even what the word for "colonel" is (I only bring it up, because there was a Klingon colonel in Star Trek VI). Perhaps he was promoted by the Governor of Kentucky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_colonel

[qoSagh]

Interesting that you mention Kentucky Colonels as I remember hearing a reference once to a lawyers in the south being addressed as Colonel. Although that was in a novel and I can find no other mention of it. However Col. Worf was a lawyer so that may be the (or at least a) connection.

[El Payaso Malo]

That is actually rather interesting. Of course, if one is a retired colonel, or a Judge Advocate General, I can see one being addressed as colonel while being a litigator.

[qurgh_]

Getting back on topic, I always had a clear concept of the Klingon military (CinC down):

Chancellor (plus personal house military if it exists)
High Council (Made up of leaders from different houses, may hold military rank majority, loyal to the Chancellor)
Military Commanders (Made up of soldiers who climbed up the rank, but do not hold much direct political power, career military EG General Martok)
Main "Spaceship" Military (split into two) {weight}:
Ships owned and commanded by the Empire (staffed by "Officers") - Majority always loyal to the Chancellor {minority}
Ships owned and commanded by houses (staffed by house members or "Officers", depending on size of owning house) - Loyal to house leaders {majority)
Ground Troops

There are basically three ways to get into the military:

Troops - These are grunt Klingons from no house or houses that are very poor/small (or disfavored by the current administration EG Martok).
Officers - These are Klingons from houses with minor wealth/power and up, but which have no military of their own.
House - If the house has it's own military, then members will simply be trained as officers and assigned to the house

All members of the Troops and Officers can climb up the ranks. House members probably have a tougher time.

I will note that I have not played the FASA games (nor read much of it's material). Most of this I've pieced together from the shows. I have no way to accurately backup this system without many hours of re-watching shows. I can also see how Okrand's ranks or FASA's naval ranks could map to this system.

[El Payaso Malo]

I remember Okrand mentioning the "Supreme Commander," who is charge of all military forces, who leads the High Command (if I remember correctly).

Would House members have everything easier? After all, they are the nobility.

[qurgh_]

I remember Okrand mentioning the "Supreme Commander," who is charge of all military forces, who leads the High Command (if I remember correctly).

Would House members have everything easier? After all, they are the nobility.

I would assume that it would seem that way to those outside, since house members probably appear to start off higher, but I would also assume that the newer house members get a significant amount of bullying and hazing from those above them. The first few years of their service is probably held at private training facilitates that are run by the houses themselves. These places are designed to create powerful warriors and are very strict. While they may be nobility, it's probably not an easy life of luxury. It's probably a very strict upbringing full of training and discipline.

[El Payaso Malo]

I would assume that it would seem that way to those outside, since house members probably appear to start off higher, but I would also assume that the newer house members get a significant amount of bullying and hazing from those above them. The first few years of their service is probably held at private training facilitates that are run by the houses themselves. These places are designed to create powerful warriors and are very strict. While they may be nobility, it's probably not an easy life of luxury. It's probably a very strict upbringing full of training and discipline.

I'm skeptical of that one. reH tay' ghot tuqDaj je "One is always of her tribe." We know that family is very important to a Klingon, and that everyone shares in dishonor. A member of your house, and therefore a member of your family is to be respected. I don't doubt that there is hazing, but just in the military sense, not the "you're new to the family" sense. They would probably get that hazing out of the way before the joining ceremony, to make sure you're good enough to join the family at all. And what aspect of Klingon society isn't full of training and discipline? Even Klingon lawyers see a trial as combat. Plus, Martok made it pretty clear that members of Great Houses have many more privileges, and Kor came off as an elitist snob. Klingon for the Galactic Traveler even seemed to indicate (to me) that the upperclass got it easier and had more opportunities than non-noble Klingons. Better educated, better cultured, and more likely to lead battalions. A House Lord is more likely to appoint his daughter or nephew as captain of a ship as opposed to some recruit in the house's military (since Klingons without a house will often pledge loyalty to one in exchange for benefits or possible membership), certainly if the relative is of equal or higher rank and possibly even if lower. Klingon Houses are generally nepotist by definition, but that makes sense in context. Also, let's not forget that only members of the 24(?) most powerful Great Houses can serve on the High Council.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I'm skeptical of that one. reH tay' ghot tuqDaj je "One is always of her tribe." We know that family is very important to a Klingon, and that everyone shares in dishonor. A member of your house, and therefore a member of your family is to be respected. I don't doubt that there is hazing, but just in the military sense, not the "you're new to the family" sense...

I am wondering if there is not some misinterpretation going on here? That is of qurgh's original comment as reposted below:

There are basically three ways to get into the military:

Troops - These are grunt Klingons from no house or houses that are very poor/small (or disfavored by the current administration EG Martok).
Officers - These are Klingons from houses with minor wealth/power and up, but which have no military of their own.
House - If the house has it's own military, then members will simply be trained as officers and assigned to the house

I took this to explain how individuals would enter into Military service. The 2nd and 3rd methods being possible analogs to historical "European Comissions" which were more or less purchased for the Sons of nobels so that they could earn their names. (if I am the one who misinterpreted any of this, I will stand corrected).

Unfortunately it also suggests that individual Houses have their own Military. Which I am not entirely convinced of. I think it is more likely that  (politically/economically) Strong Houses likely field their own forces/units (i.e.) House-run/owned ships within the KDF. Examples being evident in Parts I & II of TNGs Redemption episode arc, where Worf was able to leverage Kurn's support of Gowron against the Duras family.

I do not think that Kurn was anything other than a KDF officer, but clearly his connections were significant to secure the support of "...Four Squadron Commanders in Key Sectors..." in his effort to overthrow not only Duras, but the old council, which largely supported the Duras familes.

Regardless, I took qurgh's "Hazing" remark to be one intended to express that if Troops and Officers were the traditional or standard methods that "Most" Klingons follow into Military Service, then those whose entrance was House-based might get some flak for that at the lower ranks. as opposed to being hazed *BY* their House mates if they are new to the House.

That said, and all of this is dangerously close to being off the OPs original topic, I would argue that Hazing within a House is just as likely as anywhere else in Klingon culture. However, what we would see as or call hazing, would not be seen as such by Klingons, but more likely would be called Curse Warefare. An established as honorable effort (Okrand's Conversational Klingon, and various iterations of Klingons seen on screeen), and a new face in any Klingon social environment would alsmost certainly be "tested" in various ways by their would-be peer group. Both verbal and physical combat would be involved I should think.

This would not serve to challenge the honor of one who was a member of _______ House, Unit, Ship, or what-have-you, rather it would serve to validate that the new member of the group was capable of helping support the group as a whole by testing their prowess.

Okay, back on topic, the fact is that Ranks are more important to Star Trek fan-groups (by and large) then they are to writers, because we use them as methods of rewarding service and for identifying those capable of holding postions of responsibility. While it would be (as I mentioned earlier I believe) interesting to see all Klingon fans utilize a common rank-structure, I do not see it happening.

Thus we are left with two "Types" of rank, that which is canon and that which is not. In the case of Okrand's work I would actually argue that it is NOT trully hard-canon. While his rank titles are based off of ranks seen or mentioned on screen, and he has (reasonably) placed them in a Human-logical order of hierarchy, I do not ever recall an episode or film were it was exclusively mentioned that a particular rank meant anything in relation to another particular rank. Although lower ranking personnel seem to defer (sometimes grudgingly) to superior ranking individuals it just is not clear what rank really means in canon terms.

This, again, leaves us basically having to respect that different groups have the latitude to handle rank in whatever manner makes most sense to the given group. Particularly, or rahter especially, because, like so many questions about Klingon culture (military or otherwise) we just do not have all the facts.

All of this to say that, and any who know me will be able to anticipate my stand on this, FASA does represent one of the oldest Klingon-based fan club ranking systems--if not THE oldest. This does not make it perfect, correct, or any more valid then something myself or someone else might come up with tomorrow, and certainly no more canon, but it does establish a certain precedant within fandom. One which I have a great deal of respect for.

maj!

[qurgh_]

I took this to explain how individuals would enter into Military service. The 2nd and 3rd methods being possible analogs to historical "European Comissions" which were more or less purchased for the Sons of nobels so that they could earn their names. (if I am the one who misinterpreted any of this, I will stand corrected).

Yes, this is what I meant.

Unfortunately it also suggests that individual Houses have their own Military. Which I am not entirely convinced of. I think it is more likely that  (politically/economically) Strong Houses likely field their own forces/units (i.e.) House-run/owned ships within the KDF. Examples being evident in Parts I & II of TNGs Redemption episode arc, where Worf was able to leverage Kurn's support of Gowron against the Duras family.

I do not think that Kurn was anything other than a KDF officer, but clearly his connections were significant to secure the support of "...Four Squadron Commanders in Key Sectors..." in his effort to overthrow not only Duras, but the old council, which largely supported the Duras familes.

Yes, I intended it to mean there was only one military. While houses have their own ships, and maybe even entire fleets, they are still a part of the KDF.

Regardless, I took qurgh's "Hazing" remark to be one intended to express that if Troops and Officers were the traditional or standard methods that "Most" Klingons follow into Military Service, then those whose entrance was House-based might get some flak for that at the lower ranks. as opposed to being hazed *BY* their House mates if they are new to the House.

I intended the hazing to be within houses. Kind of like the way fraternities haze new members. I make the assumption that houses train their personnel separably from the main military and it within these smaller settings that hazing might take place. It may not be considered hazing within Klingon society, it could just be the normal way of toughing up the new trainees.

[El Payaso Malo]

If the Houses don't have their own military that they pledge to the Empire for privileges or whatever, then that isn't a feudal system. But they weren't very clear one way or the other.

[qoSagh]

This is what I get for trying to research an old thread, I find another old thread to play with.

I have always envisioned the house ships as similar to the Household Cavalries that used to exist in England, with some component similar to our US Reserves and even with a little Merchant Marines thrown in. It is like this, they are owned by a house, they are staffed primarily by house members or members of lesser houses loyal to the owning house. They primarily serve to protect that houses interests, however they can be imperialized as needed in times of war. I am not sure of the exact method, but it would be something like when a state reserve unit is federalized for service overseas.

Now I disagree on how one would enter this branch of service. As I think that all Klingons serve a minimum enlistment in the Imperial forces. I have revised this thought somewhat after reading the last Gorkon book, to include service in local garrisons. At one point I was thinking that everyone did 2 years and then had a choice to make. Leave entirely for the civilian world. Transfer to a planetary police force or transfer to a household unit. I now see that the planetary garrisons/police are more likely parallel to the military. I wonder if there is a test similar to that used in the USA, however in addition to deciding aptitude & assignment, it can direct one into planetary service which is seen as less glamorous and less respected.

Either way, the household services I see as running basically similar to the Imperial services, except that being a smaller force, promotions might come quicker but less often. That being said, I think they do stick to a similar rank table, if only because when Imperialized they need to be treated as equals. I suppose that one without a house or of a minor house, who has served some time in Imperial Service might see that as a faster path to prosperity. I have a feeling that those in household service may be paid better but have limitations on service area and settlement areas.