A few thoughts on the Empire's languages...

[Nerroth(from long ago)]

Hi,

I've been reading a fair amount recently regarding both tlhIngan Hol and klingonaase as well as various visual representations such as pIqaD and the (in)famous 10 characters etc. and it seems that a few ideas have been overlooked (forgive me if I am mistaken in this, i by no means claim expert status in this...).

Firstly, the argument of whether pIqaD is or is not 'canon' as regards use by the Empire, or at least among those with an interest in learning tlhIngan Hol. The argument seems to focus on whether one can refer to pIqaD as a definitive means of writing the Klingon language along with the romanizations or whether the characters used in the series have more merit. However, even here on Earth we have languages such as ancient Egyptian and Japanese which possess multiple means of visual representation (demotic and heiroglyph in one case, kanji, hiragana, katakana and romaji in the case of the other) and there is no reason why similar distinctions are not made as regards the use of pIqaD as opposed to the romanization or the show symbols.

Maybe in the Empire non-Klingons (subject races as well as outsiders like humans and Romulans) are obliged to use pIqaD as a more extreme means of representing their foreignness than that in Japanese which uses katakana for mose foreign-derived words, and the on-screen characters are reserved for Klingons only, hence the reason why no-one here on Earth can read them... (in a similar means as to how a lot of kanji can be indecipherable without furigana to many modern Japanese, who are more likely to use the kanas instead)

As regards the two languages out there, tlhIngan Hol and klingonaase, consider that in the European Union of today, 20 official languages are present in the bodies of the Union itself, and while few can claim mastery of all 20 it is not uncommon to hear representatives who have familiarity with several of Europe's languages and use them in an official capacity, or indeed those in the federal, bilingual level in Canada, where some representatives may speak and use additional languages, be they Mandarin or Inuktituk...

Perhaps among the officer corps knowledge of both languages is a necessity, in order to effectively govern and command troops from all regions of the Empire.

Also, and this is a point which may well be levelled towards the common perception of Klingons as a whole as opposed to those involved with the language, but it seems that perhaps too much stock is invested in the notion that all Klingons are the warrior type, obsessed with martial honour etc. I found it interesting in Enterprise how the point was made by a Klingon advocate Kolos at Archer's trial how Qo'nos/Klinzhai was once a very different world, with far less emphasis on war and conquest - perhaps the Klingon 'stereotype' we see portrayed all too often is merely the consequence of a growth of influence of the militarists in Klingon society and politics, that the same propaganda has been portrayed to Klingons of less warlike persuasions to enforce a new order - much like how militant regimes on Earth have frequently concocted warlike myths and goaded their populaces into wars and pogroms against 'undesirables'.

What does this have to do with the language(s) in discussion? Rather much, it seems. The focus of much of the translation of chosen literature, be it Hamlet or Gilgamesh, or on the impolite, adversarial nature of much of the language as portrayed results in the notion that since most portrayed Klingons have no use for other less militant or violent terms when speaking that such terms ergo do not exist in Klingon. It's as if the only exposure to Japanese came from a samurai's war diary, or the only reference materials in German were from the Third Reich.

Forgive me if it seems like I'm reading too much into this, but I think that the portrayal of Klingons as shown in TOS and that post-TNG not only have no need to conflict, but neither have to comprise the limit of the depth and breadth of variety and use of the languages within the Klingon Empire.

Sorry if I got a bit rambly towards the end!

Gary

[Klythe]

Greeting Nerroth!   Have you considered posting an Introduction thread in the Reception Hall?
I think you are already a worthy word warrior, and look forward to disagreeing with you in the future!

Firstly, the argument of whether pIqaD is or is not 'canon'

    I think I need to clarify, as I did not know there was an argument on this.  The fact that there is a definative writing system of tlhIngan called pIqaD is a canonical part of the language (Okrand defines term in The Klingon Dictionary.  The shapes of any additional letters(Other then the canonical 10), and which ones represent which sounds is not held to be canon, by anyone I know of.  I think even the KLI avoids claiming that their version is the canonical form of the pIqaD.  If you use their font, or any other font, just be aware that Paramount can change it anytime they want and make whatever you wrote turn to random rubbish.  

... there is no reason why similar distinctions are not made as regards the use of pIqaD as opposed to the romanization or the show symbols.

  Agreed. Certainly the official writing system, which I will call Klinglish, is probably used in the Federation where Klingon is written.  Perhaps it is also used when dealing with Terran tourists and traders.

As regards the two languages out there, tlhIngan Hol and klingonaase, ... it is not uncommon to hear representatives who have familiarity with several of Europe's languages and use them in an official capacity

    In my own little world and on The Furry Conflict, where I advise them on all things Klingon, tlhIngan Hol is the warrior's language, and klingonaase is the language of Klingon scientists and nonmilitary academia.   Kuve(subject races) may or may not understand either depending on their duites, but are not ever to speak tlhIngan Hol.  

    Of course the playing field is wide open for any fan to repurpose Klingonese, klingonaase, Battle Language or and other Klingon languages to fit the requirements of thier own stories.

too much stock is invested in the notion that all Klingons are the warrior type, obsessed with martial honour etc.

 
    You've hit on one of the biggest problems some of us have with understanding Klingon culture in it's full context.  Obviously there has to be someone to grow food, build the weapons and ships, mine the raw materials, run the government, trade with aliens, tell the stories and do the dancing.  So we just speculate what the rest are like, based on those we see.
 

I found it interesting in Enterprise how the point was made by a Klingon advocate Kolos at Archer's trial how Qo'nos was once a very different world

   I'll have to watch that again to see if find out of he is talking about pre-Kahless, pre-Herq, or was he talking about a time sometime between when the Klingons first acquire Warp drive(taken form the Herq's cold dead manipulating appendages and his own time.  I don't think it said, so the safest bet is that the time he was talking about was pre-Kahless, at least of 1,200 years before the 'present'.                                                                                                              

What does this have to do with the language(s) in discussion? Rather much, it seems.

   You can't talk about language without eventually talking about who is using the language and why.  So I think this is the correct place to discuss it.  Still, there is no misc culture topic... Hmm...

Since most portrayed Klingons have no use for other less militant or violent terms when speaking that such terms ergo do not exist in Klingon. It's as if the only exposure to Japanese came from a samurai's war diary, or the only reference materials in German were from the Third Reich.

   I reject this.  A warrior's tongue still requires a full vocabulary, and tlhIngan Hol reflects this.  "Ponytail Holder" is not exactly a militant or violent term, and yet choljaH is included in the dictionary.   Just about all of the most common vocabulary that everyone needs regarldless of thier duties or occupation is present in the language.  Yes, military terms are over represented compared to most languages, but this is supposed to be the warrior's language, the language of Kahless...

Forgive me if it seems like I'm reading too much into this, but I think that the portrayal of Klingons as shown in TOS and that post-TNG not only have no need to conflict, but neither have to comprise the limit of the depth and breadth of variety and use of the languages within the Klingon Empire.

 
   Read as much into things as you can.  We always can use something new to talk about.  I have done my best to blend the original trek(TOS,TAS, and the first 5-6 movies), oldschool Klingon fandom, Neotrek (TNG and later), as well as the StarTrek:Enterprise prequel information as it is revealed...   I know there are some conflicts that cannot be resolved, but I do my best to incorporate all known Klingon information when trying to analyse Klingon things...  

   

[qoSagh]

Quite alot of interesting points here.

I have always felt that the number of pIqaDmey was roughly equivilent to the number of dialects. There are probably too many to count, but are mostly regional. I wonder if the "official 10" is a clipped pIqaD in the way that clipped Klingon exists in TKD or Battle Language exists within klingonaase. Remembering that writing methods would have developed out of the need to show spoken words, tthere would have been alot of opinions on the best way to do things. (Kind of like these forums), so I would think that quite a few alphabets would have been developed. I would also assume many of them to fall out of regular use with time, as we have seen here on Earth.

As for all Klingons being Warriors, well I can't see the Empire lasting long if that were the case. I do think that Warriros hold a certain high status due to the conquest mentality that the Empire has. I also think that Warriors are the most visible because they would be almost the only Klingons seen by our enemies, as well as the peacekeepers back home. With the mention of mandatory military service that has been a part of many books, it is easy to see that every family has or has had a Warrior in it at some time. Not to mention that the Emperor who unified the Empire into a single unit saw himself as a Warrior and indeed fought in many a battle.

As for the much different period that Kolos spoke of, I have always thought it must have been between Kahless and the Herq. I have never liked the Paraborg Herq story but it has become part of the history so I have to accept it. BUt imagine this as a rough timeline:

Klingons form from nomads into towns and villages.

Klingon Towns and Villages form into regions and go to War with each other.

Kahless unifies the Regions into the Empire, and there is little need for large scale war.

The Herq come and claim the homeworld. The Klingons rediscover war.

The Herq are defeated, but now with Warp Drive, there are new enemies to meet and new places to annex. War a\once again becomes the norm of Klingon society.



Of sourse that is over simplified and I have no idea how long each period lasted, but it seems at least plausible.  

[Kesvirit]

Nerroth: Maybe in the Empire non-Klingons (subject races as well as outsiders like humans and Romulans) are obliged to use pIqaD as a more extreme means of representing their foreignness than that in Japanese which uses katakana for mose foreign-derived words, and the on-screen characters are reserved for Klingons only, hence the reason why no-one here on Earth can read them...

If it is true that subject races and conquered populations are forced to use pIqaD, it is not so much to emphasize their foreigness as their secondary status in Imperial society. If indeed pIqaD is "the warriors' tongue" -- something with which I disagree, but which seems to be a popular conception -- it is the first Klingon language that other peoples would encounter in the form of Imperial expeditionary and occupational forces.  It is the easiest of the Klingon languages to learn as evidenced by the relative number of non-Klingons known to speak it, and can be adapted to whatever writing systems the conquered populations may have for easier communications between the rulers and the ruled.

-=- Kesvirit

[qoSagh]

I would think that only because the first Klingons an foreigner is likely to meet are the Warriors, then the first language a foreigner is likely to hear is "Battle Language" or as I am sure it is to become known "The thing which makes us cower and surender while listening to it" lol.

 

[Kesvirit]

If the first language non-Klingons are likely to encounter is Battle Language, it is unlikely that there would be enough survivors to learn any of the Klingon tongues, and neither klingonaase nor tlhIngan Hol would be known as far away as Earth.  }}:-\

-=- Kesvirit

[voraq]

I must start out by saying that I know canon is a relative term whose boundries are modified by each individual.  I, like Klythe, try to include all Klingon information into one "meshing" (I'm not sure if that is the proper word)  that fits together well.

Using Paramount canon (What Okuda defines as using only movie and episode information)  Klingonaase was mentioned but never heard.  tlhIngan Hol was never named but was heard several times.  It is my impression that, going only by the paramount affiliated material, tlhIngan Hol was intented to be the Klingonaase that was mentions in Trouble with Tribbles.

That episode, I have no doubt was the basis for the name of the language that we now recognise as seperate from tlhIngan Hol.

Now as I said I try to include all Klingon information and make most of it fit.  So seeing that most of the exposure to the outside is done by representatives of the government (Military, High Council, ect..)  it seems logical to regard tlhIngan Hol as the official language of the Empire.  As English is the official language of the US.  
   Givin that the homeworld was united from different regions, tribes, clans, countries (or what you wish to call them) it seems that there would be several different languages.  Like in any country on earth.  The US speakes English as the official language and most international representatives are exposed to English when working with the US, however there are several different languages spoken in the US still (native languages, Spanish, ect)  Spanish is almost as widely spoken in the US as English is.
    I feel that neither tlhIngan Hol or Klingonaase are the exclusive language spoken in the Empire, meaning one is right and one is wrong.  I feel that tlhingan Hol is simply the official language recognised by and used in the government. And while Klingonaase is used and recognised just as widely, the one most assosiated with the Klingon Empire from an outsider point of  veiw will be tlhIngan Hol.  As English is regarded as the language of the US by non-Americans but there are others just as widely used within the US.

[richard]

Has Okrand ever stated that pIqaD is an alphabet? There are lots of other options that would suit better perhaps. www.omniglot.com has a good list.

Given the history of earth languages, all of them at some point were pictographically represented, and all of them eventually started using these pictographs either logographically (as in chinese, one symbol=one concept) or phonetically (as in an alphabet, abjad, etc). I'm not so sure that literary Klingon will have diverted fully from logograms.

Although the stuff on the shows is undeniably phonetic (its simply not complex enough for anything else) that makes sense since frontline warriors may not be completely literate. Korean and Japanese children tend to write phonetically as well.

However any text more complicated may well use a partly logographic script (books, legal documents, etc) for clearer meaning. This would mean homophones (of which there are already more than a few) would not be confused.

Tis just a thought.

As for the "a race of warriors" myth. Consider the medieval japanese, as they had a similar situation. They were ruled by a warrior caste, and yet they didnt expand and conquer (except against the Ainu perhaps). Although there were people of every profession, only the warriors met outsiders, since they functioned as the aristocracy too. Although there was an emperor, it was the military commanders who ruled. Sound familiar? Kahless may well have always been a tool for spiritual unification rather than a practical government, the high council was still the best way to get things done.

Im fair sure Kolos is refering to within his own lifetime btw. I think the warrior caste only got really aggressive when contact with other strong races was made (humans, romulans). Not just when warpdrive was introduced. A successful totalitarian rule requires a threat to society, not just fresh meat to conquer.

As a side note: I absolutely detest representing a glottal stop as an inverted comma in pIqaD. Okrand has made it clear that it is a full consonant, and so it should be represented as such. Just as it is in other languages that use it (arabic for instance).

Cheers!

[Edit -- Added hyperlink]

[voraq]

I agree with what richard said about Kolos.  I believe Kolos even made a comment to the effect that when he was younger, there was a more diversified cultural drive but now it seems like all the young people want to be warriors.

[Qunchuy]

On the topic of pIqaD, Marc Okrand once said he was pretty sure it's not an alphabet.  Michael Okuda, the fellow in charge of actually showing such things as Klingon writing on screen, is quite adamant about there being no relationship between the symbols he shows us and the meaning they are supposed to carry.

The description of dialectical variation in The Klingon Dictionary leads me to the conclusion that pIqaD is an alphabet or syllabary, intended to represent sounds.

[The Fleer/Skybox trading cards use an alphabetic mapping of Klingon language symbols, though each symbol can represent several different sounds, and the person who put them together sometimes inserted his own (often vulgar) thoughts instead of the appropriate text.]