Question about D'Har

[KataQ]

posted on 1-24-2003 at 07:16 PM

I am a Klingon enthusiast and I would like to know more about the Topic of D'Har.

My Thanks,

-KataQ

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 1-26-2003 at 05:04 PM

D'Har Masters

The topic of D'Har is one that appears to be shrouded in mystery with little provided in the way of substance.

The concept of a D'Har Master was first introduced during the Deep Space Nine episode, Blood Oath. The Star Trek Encyclopedia defines the term Dahar as a "Highly honored title bestowed upon only the greatest of Klingon warriors". Within the episode it was only established that Kor was a D'Har Master and this is confirmed within the Encyclopedia yet several websites contribute this honor to the other great warriors, Kang and Koloth.

As to the achievements required to obtain the title of D'Har Master it has never been explored. Anything that you may read is purely fan speculation. On one fan website I read that a warrior had to survive 1000 successful battles to earn the designation. This forum uses the designation of Da'Har Master to identify those participants whom have posted 1000 or more times.

Many Klingon fan groups use it as the highest ranking decoration within their organization but there is little consistency between factions as to how it may be earned or applied.
 

[KataQ]

posted on 1-27-2003 at 04:13 PM

My Thanks,

Q'apla!

[GravityMaster]

NuqneH,

I was told long ago that there were a minimum of three requirements to becoming a Da'Har Master.
First, train 1000 Warriors that survive 100 battles.
Second, win 1000 battles.
And third, and the hardest, survive 1000 Honor battles.

The first is not hard, most decent warriors with a little bit of training can survive many battles.  Winning 1000 battles can be done with cunning, determination, and the support of dedicated warriors.  But to have one's Honor put through the grinder and come out the other side intacted once is indeed a great accomplishment.  To have your Honor intact and unblemished after 100 battles, is a great accomplishment.  Then do it nine more times.  Not very fun, but VERY REWARDING.

Which is more honorable, to have survived 1000 Honor Battles or to give up ones life rather than to lose ones Honor?  Tough question to answer.  How many of the Great Warriors have HoH'egh, rather than lose their Honor?  Would you be willing to join their ranks in the Black Fleet?  I only hope that I would have the courage to do so.

Next question:  What is Duty? (what I use for my answer, next time)

"The only problem being sooo very good at war, is you run out of enemy tooo soon" said Bumba at the battle of Wolf 359.

Lord Nor LlaH Bumba
Klan of LlaH, Chaouw Empire
Da'Har Master, House Ki'RK




 

[qoSagh]

Well, fan speculation being what it is, alot of creative stuff has come from that route. As for surviving 1,000 battles, in this (Klingon) day and age of space flight I would think that many have done that. I do have to say I like the idea of having had to train 1,000 warriors each of whom has to survive 1,000 battles. That seems like the stuff tradition is made of. But I take exception to the thought of surviving 1,000 "honor battles" simply because in order to survive those battles, the one would have to enter those battles. There are only two ways to enter such battles, first to have your own honor questioned 1,000 times or to issue 1,000 challenges to the honor of others.

If 1,000 warriors all questioned ones honor, regardless of how good a fighter you are, this one would think they can't all be wrong. You must be doing something to raise all these questions. Such would not be the actions of one deserving the title of master of anything, let alone D'Har. On the other hand, if you have questioned the honor of others 1,000 times, I would think that the words of the Klingon Playwrite are appropriate: "Me thinks he doth protest too much". This would make you at a minimum annoying and at a maximum guilty of using others honor to conceal your dishonor.

I suppose it is possible to issue 1,000 such challenges, but that would require an abundance of bad luck. If I were surronded by that many dishonorable foes, I would probably not be anywhere the Klingon Empire.

[GravityMaster]

Typical reply from someone that has never spent any time defending something greater than him/herself.  

One thousand Honor Battles do not happen within 1000 days.  It takes many years, and these Honor Battles do not come from just someone challenging your Honor or you challenging their Honor.  These Honor Battles can come from choosing the 'Hard Right' decision over the 'Easy' decision and then having the intestinal fortitude to stand by your decision.  When others lives have hung in the balance of your decision to do the correct thing, then you can talk to me about an 'Honor Battle'.  If you had any military experience, you would know of what I speak.  

BTW: "I do have to say I like the idea of having had to train 1,000 warriors each of whom has to survive 100 battles. "  is what your comment should have said.   Not "I do have to say I like the idea of having had to train 1,000 warriors each of whom has to survive 1,000 battles".

Bumba

[qoSagh]

The one should not speculate on the non-Klingon lives of other on this board. When speaking of Klingon honor and ideals, what is important is not what I do outside of Klindom but what I do inside of Klindom. I purposely do not discuss those other aspects of my life unless they are specifically called for by a relevant topic.

As for protecting something greater than him/herself, I think human life qualifies. That being said, I will not allow this dscussion about D'Har to become a personal flame war, so I would appreciate if all personal commentes ceased.

[qab]

The one should not speculate on the non-Klingon lives of other on this board. When speaking of Klingon honor and ideals, what is important is not what I do outside of Klindom but what I do inside of Klindom.

Thats intresting. Within my life the Klingon ideals, especially those of honor, are totally a part of my "non-Klingon life". I don't suddenly gain honor when I put on the rubber headpiece and then loose it again when I take it off.

In my line of work I help kids on a daily basis. I try and help them stay in school an every time I find out one of those kids has graduated or made it to college I consider that a battle won. Partly for me, by mainly for the child.

What I have done, or could ever do, in Fandom pales in comparision to what I try to do in the "real world". By working hard I bring honor to myself, my program and my organization. Just because I cannot be a warrior on a starship does not mean I cannot live like a true Klingon.

tlhIngan jIH!

[EnkiDu BaQ]

What I have done, or could ever do, in Fandom pales in comparision to what I try to do in the "real world". By working hard I bring honor to myself, my program and my organization. Just because I cannot be a warrior on a starship does not mean I cannot live like a true Klingon.

well said.  I too live my life with honor as the main focus.  I did so before becoming a Klingon.  Right now I work with the elderly and I see a lot of negllect of elderly parents.  This is not an honorable thing and I try to fill the gaps left by  unattentive family members.  I am very protective of my  residents and will do all I can to comfort them.

When I see one of my residents being taken care of by their family after a long spell of neglect then I feel that I have shown them the honorable way to respond to their parents needs.  After all our parents made us who we are,  and we should respect that.  this is my battle on a daily basis and I like you work hard to bring honor to myself, and those who have none.

Enkidu

[weslipuqlod]

Back to the topic of D'Har masters and how the title is bestowed...

We are constantly reminded that there are no old warriors.  Kor, Kang, and Koloth appeared to be an exception.  When talking about surviving battles to earn a title you get into the whole mess of defining what a battle is and which ones will satisfy requirements for recognition.  

We each fight battles every day.  Some of these battles hold lives in the balance.  Others fight internal battles to overcome what life dealt them.  Still others are exhausted determining what to wear.

There are those that will argue that their battles are no less honorable than someone else's, yet I take exception at struggling hard to earn a title that someone else can walk in and claim with little or no effort simply because they meet the "technical definition".

I too disagree with the Honor battle method.  You would have the entire Empire picking fights to get ahead - that is not honorable or realistic.

Age plays a factor only in that it allowed the Klingon more time to earn it.  The standards for this must be objective and not subjective.  For all we know it could stand for political/diplomatic skill or the master of an artform, like poetry (I belive that to be baSay master).  Yet, in evaluating Kor we speculate that it should possibly be a military status, at the very least a martial art type designation.  Maybe it is even wrapped up in nobility for we know Kor to be of noble blood.

I subscribe that D'Har Master is a title of Honor, difficult to earn, rare to possess, a recognition that is bestowed upon ultimate achievement - recognized and respected throughout the galaxy.  (You saw the sobering effect it had on Odo when Koloth chastised his demeaning talk toward Kor.)

Personally I believe that there are too many unimaginative fans that run around with D'Har Master arbitrarily tacked on to their persona for the lack of understanding that surrounds this title.

[qoSagh]

I too think that this title is one of honor, but I also think that before we can figure out D'Har mastery we must first figure out D'Har itself. It could be an artform (like poetry) or it could be a martial art. It could even be a game, in Chess there are Masters and Grand Masters.

As for there being too many fans running around with D'Har Master tacked on, I wholeheartedly agree. But I understand how this happens. Once something appears on any trek show it becomes the newest fad in fandom. A few of the fanclubs try to control this with rules and regulations but there are by far more Klingon fans who are not in clubs than there are in the various clubs. This habbit is similar to the military ranks. FASA used Naval ranks for the Klingons because there had to be equivilent ranks for what the federation was doing. I have met many Klingon Admirals. When Okrand wrote KLINGON FOR THE GALACTIC TRAVELER, he listed what from the human perspective is a mixed rank structure. I played in a  LARP game where my character was a Klingon Admiral and was listed as general because the GM said there were no Klingon Admirals since there had never been one on TV or in the movies. Until KGT I had never heard of a Klingon Brigader, now I have met a few. We in fandom seem to take titles and achievements out of fad and fashion not out of entitlement.

I think this has happened with D'Har, once we saw one master on DS9, everybody had to run out and be one of them. I have commented on this in other threads how so many people make thier characters the long lost son of such and such or the designer of soem great ship, basically there are alot of people who want to be the empire's greatest hero. Next time you go to a convention, take a look at how many people you see wearing the Order of the bet'leH.

The real fun for D'Har starts when, as this thread has proven, different factions of fandom set different requirements for the same title or rank. Oh what a tangled empire we weave.

[qoSagh]

This could possibly be beating a dead horse, but another idea about D'Har was brought to my attention. While talking with other club members about these forums one person seemd almost shocked that we were even debating that D'Har was a martial art. He said he had always had the idea that D'Har Master was a title given to great story tellers or bards. He came to this conclusion from watching the episode Blood Oath. Hearing the three warriors tell thier tales, but also from the phrase I will sing a dirge for him whne a brother waqrrior fell in battle. Since we had never seen a dirge as part of they few funeral rites the idea was that this was some special rite only confered on special individuals like masters of D'Har.

I have to say this wasn't an idea I had ever thought of, but it seems to work at least as much as any other theory. Now all we have to do is wait for Paraborg to change history and make the debate a moot point.