Heghba' and maq'to'vor

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 2-23-2003 at 06:43 PM

Heghba' and maq'to'vor

Let me preface this thread by stating up front this topic may be offensive to some. No insult is intended.

I am interested in what the perceptions and thoughts are of the members within this Forum regarding the Klingon beliefs of ritual suicide as first introduced within TNG: "Ethics" and later touched upon in DS9: "Sons of Mogh".

The Heghba' as I understand it:

When a Klingon can no longer stand and face his enemies, when he becomes a burden to his family and friends, it is time for him to die.

Surrounded by friends, family, and comrades, the ailing Klingon takes the ceremonial Heghba' dagger and plunges it deep into his own heart. A family member, preferably the eldest son who will assume leadership of the house, twists the blade counter-clockwise and pulls it from the body, wiping the blood on his sleeve. The Klingon death ritual follows.

This ritual "suicide" is the only acceptable way of taking one's own life. Only an ailing Klingon may perform the ceremony. This generally includes Klingons mortally wounded in battle but not killed. With the exception of suicide missions for the glory of the Empire, any other suicide is considered a dishonorable death and the Klingon can not cross the river of blood and enter Sto'vo'qor.

Then there is the maq'to'vor:

This ritual provides an honorable death to a Klingon whose honor has been wrongfully taken from him. Utilizing a stone incense urn, IDanjI incense, and the ceremonial ma'veq dagger, the wronged Klingon's body is purified by the incense smoke. The ma'veq is lifted above the head of the ritual leader and plunged directly into the center of the chest. As the wronged Klingon dies, the death ritual is then performed.

We were provided these two rituals involving suicide and the shows briefly explored some of the the rationales behind them. I want to know what the others think.

[Abbot Nej vIt]

weslipuqlod,

Wow... I am Suprized to be the First to Respond to this... Many Real World Cultures have their Version of those who are too old or a Burden upon the Social Group, Leaving to go into the wiilderness.

In Our Culture it is Illegal and Considered a Sin to Commit Suicide. And Anyone who has been Touched by the Event Personally and Does not Understand Why their Loved One Would Want to Kill Themselves, is Often Angered by such Occurances.

In the Episodes You Speak of, There is a Clear Distinction Between the Klingon Kulture, and the Braoder Merged Cultures of the Federation. In Both Instances, Alternatives are Found to Offer Solutions to the Dilemma that are Palatable to Western Audiences. But In Terms of the Shows, I Do Not think that Worf would have Found Kurns' Predicament Anything But Justifiable, Had The Federation Not Interferred... BUT that is a KLINGON perspective, NOT a Real World One... So Had the Writers Not Provided an Out, then there would have been Gre'thor to pay! In the Real World Such Solutions are Harder to Address, Since Replacing Someones Whole Spine, or Wiping their Memory is Not Possible.

Good Question.

[voraq]

So Had the Writers Not Provided an Out, then there would have been Gre'thor to pay!

Is this from the Federation point of view or the Klingon spiritual point of view?  Because from a Federation point of view ( at least on DS9. Picard was open minded regarding the Heghba')  Worf probably would have been charged with murder.  But from a Klingon spiritual point of view it was totally justifiable and both Kurn and Worf(providing he did not do anything dishonorable and was judged on his killing of Kurn) would have gone to Sto'vo'kor.

[qoSagh]

Well from the Klingon POV Kurn would have gone to Sto-vo-Kor, but I don't think assisting in this rite would have in and of itself entitled Worf or anyone to that honorable status. And lets face it, Worf being Worf he will as long as he is alive do the fleeting honor dance, shifting in and out of favor like the wind.

From the federation POV They would not see Kurn as even a part of the issue. I think they would see Worf as a killer, without any thought given to the wishes of Kurn. Those wishes being distasteful to the federation were just the bonus that made them think they were entitled to interfere with an internal household cultural matter.

If the Klingons are not free to practice thier spirituality on board DS9, then why should Quark be allowed to run his bar by the Ferengi Rules?  

[Abbot Nej vIt]

voraq,

My Comment was Definately from a Ratings Point of View...<Grin>...

From The Federation Perspective, Picard IS Extremely Openminded about Alternate Cultures, the Whole Basis for the federations Existence is that The Ways Of Other Cultures are Valid... And Of Course He is a Less than Amateur Archeologist and Studant of Anthropolgy... So I Would Expect Nothing Less than At the Very Least His Understanding of the Right of the Individual to Choose their Own Path...

However, The Larger Government of the Federation is so Confused by the Process of Actually Living up to its own Lofty Standards, that I Have My Doubts that they would even try Very Hard to Recognize the Dilema Posed... (Just Look at what they Tried to Do with Data, If Not For Picards Intercession Data would Have Been Destoyed, Just out of Curiosity)!

From the Klingon Spiritual Side of the Discussion, It Seems Fairly Clear that Such Rituals Serve at Least Three Functions:

1) Relese the Social Group from the Extra Resource Expenditure involved with the Long Term Care of the Individual Who is too Weak to Protect themselves, or To Contribute to the Defense of the Group...

2) Such Rituals Are an Important Part of the Klingon Psychological Make Up... Klingons do Not Fear Death unless it is Dishonrable, So If the Worst Thing that a Klingon Can Imagine is to Die Old and Helpless... Then These types of Beliefs Support an Alternative that Could be a Benefit to all Concerned.

And

3) Such Practices Reinforce The Independant Nature of Free Will and Personal Integrity... One Can Not Simply "Be", Honorable, One Must Choose to Be So... One Can Not simply "Be" Loyal, One Must Make it a Habit and Part of their way of Life...


qoSagh,

I Think that you are Right, the Honor of Kurn Had No Other Recourse... And that Had Work Followed Through It is Kurn Who would have Been Redeemed, and Honor Having Been Restored Would Have Been Blackfleet Bound...

And In Fact I Think that Worfs Eventual Capitulation to Federation Thinking, Could Argueably Hurt Kurn in the Afterlife... Kurn Was Still Kurn When all Was Said And Done Regardless of Rather He Happened to Remember Being So... I Have Often Wondered What Would have Happened to Kurns Honor Had Anyone Figured Out that He Had Been Tricked into a Federation-cenrtic Solution to a VERY PURELY Klingon Issue...?  

[qoSagh]

We may just get to see what happens depending on what goes on in the IKS Gorkon books. He does after all begin to have flashbacks near the end of Book 2. Which brings to mind an interesting question, if he serves well in battle under his new name, but is discovered to be dishonored under his old name, which life counts more? Will he have to go back and try for ritual suicide once again, and who would help him do it now, as his house is no more? House Martok owes no debt to him, and in fact may steer clear of the whole mess, as it is likely a black mark on Worfs already questionable record. Did Kurn have children, if so where are they? We did hear mention of Alexander having cousins on the homeworld, but there was no mention of thier parents. Would any remnants of House Mogh have gone with Worf into House Martok? Would Martok have to assist Worf in the very death he denied Kurn in order to preserve the house?

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Have Not Read any of the Gorkon Books... So I May Have to Delve in...

I Have Also Wondered about the Whole Issue of Rather Houses Adopt Whole Blooded Families? (Which Seems More Like an Alliance)... Or If It is always Based upon Individuals...? My Current Persona is a Proud Member of the H'Nter Line by Blood, But Should J.G. ever Mess with me at a Con and Adopt me into the House of Martok, I Do Not Forsee the Entire Line Becoming of that House... (Which of Course is a Whole Other Set of Questions, About the Hierachy of Lines, Houses and Families... Everyone has their own Take on it)...

[Kehlan]

I suspect the adoption thing is based on individuals as Alexander was brought into the House of Martok seperately.  If it was a family thing he would have already been considered a member.
I am waiting with bated breath to find out what happens with the Rodek/Kurn situation - will he get his memory back or not?  (Come on Mr Decandido, hurry up and write the next one please.)
I think that Kurn would consider himself dishonoured by what had been done to him, even if it was without his knowledge.
It is possible that Alexander had cousins on his mothers side but I doubt it as I seem to remember reading somewhere (can't remember where right now, so may be wrong) that his cousins looked down on him for his mixed blood.   I am also sure that I remember some mention of Kurn's House and Family being stripped of their honour - so that implies that more than just Kurn was involved.  I also think he is more likely to want Mauk-to Vor so he regains his honour and hence prevents the dishonour from being passed down to his children.  (but this is just my theory)

Kehlan

[qarSuv]

I'm also curious as to what will happen to Kurn. My main issue is, would Kurn still be considered dishonored, given that it was really a Dominion plot that he and Worf opposed and that Worf was later decorated in one of the Gorkon books? And especially that Gowron was shown to put his interests beyond even the safety of the Empire? And that he did use his Chancellor's prerogatives to destroy his political enemies? And if one Chancellor could cast someone out, then another can overturn that decision, and I can even foresee the Emperor's support on this issue, for the support Kurn gave him in Kahless.

I have my own questions, while I'm glad the Detapa council got out, I do wonder what turn the war would have taken with Klingons conquering Cardassia? Since that kuvekhestat <"messed"- up "boot-kisser"> Dukat made moot any advantage of real democracy on his world... What do you folks think? Is Kurn really still dishonored publicly, and has he ever truly lost his honor?

[Kehlan]

I Is Kurn really still dishonored publicly, and has he ever truly lost his honor?

That's the big question.  As I see it there are two types of honour.... the public one, which can be taken from you by the chancellor or even by public opinion.  And a person's own personal honour.  which can never be taken from you by another peson although it can be lost or thrown away.  Kurn, despite being of a discommended house and dishonoured by his brother's actions, at all times lived up to his own personal sense of honour.

Kehlan

[El Payaso Malo]

For what it's worth, I am almost certain that Kurn and I would agree: I would rather be stabbed in the heart than have my memory erased. It is more humane.

[Klythe]

    I am surprised I hadn't weighed in on this topic before, perhaps it is because I do not care what games the Children of Mogh play.  If there is any ability to fight and a fight to be fought, that is the course to take.   Kor was a tired old man, his mind and body nearly lost to age, but still lived to find his last glorious battle.  I strongly disagree with Heghba'.  My opinion is if you have the strength to put a dagger in your own chest, you have the stength to put it into an enemy's chest.  A crippled warrior can still fight, as a tactician,  military planner teacher and advisor.  A fallen warrior would not have his honor questioned for passing thier blade to another warrior who had lost theirs.  So what if the weapon you have to pass on is you the knowledge of a thousand battles of enemy's thinking and thier tricks?   

    Ultimately the only problems I see that would lead to either of these rituals is lack of an enemy to battle.