Klingon homosexuality

[qoSagh]

The Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy is actually nothing more than an official lock on the proverbial closet door. The Uniform Code of Military Justice still forbids any Homosexual Acts, so if one were to be caught in a sexual situation with another of the same gender it is an automatic dishonorable discharge. When I was in high school and the recruiters were hunting seniors there was a question on the application where you had to affirm that you were not gay, under the new policy that question was removed, that's the don't ask part. If you declare or otherwise announce homosexuality you have violated the don't tell part.

I had never thought of the idea that mates were chosen based on acceptability as a warrior, but I like the concept. So in theory there are those who have never been chosen. I would wonder if this doesn't lead to an informal caste system of sorts, where if you have not distinguished yourself in battle you might only seek out mates of similar standing. I think this would be governed only by social custom & the probability of rejection not by government control.

Since Klingons tend to make their achievements well known, I am not sure that one could reject very many advances before arousing suspicion, or for that matter causing a feud of sorts. If you turn down a mate from a certain family, might it be seen as snobbery? Could this have ramifications far greater than the two individuals involved? This kind of makes the head spin. Now if you take one who consistently turns down all potential mates, it would lessen the stigma to the individuals that got turned down but might lead to a family members "counseling" the one on his duty to house and empire.

Even in the most tolerant societies there would not be a special assignment for homosexuals, they would simply be integrated into whatever assignment they were needed in. This would cause a problem amongst intolerant Klingons I think, if some in a unit were exempt from certain social customs and others were not. Unofficial segregation and punishment would seem to be all the more deadly in this setting than it would among humans.

I am actually surprised about the story from the SF Ball, in that despite how Klingons likely would treat this issue, the human fans within Klingon clubs are as a rule a whole lot more tolerant. Fandom is one of the more liberal social groups I have encountered and almost anything seems to be accepted in a sort of live and let live mentality. Variation seems to be the rule not the exception, within most fan clubs I have encountered.

[Kehlan]

Just to clarify, the person who wanted to be a gay Klingon is not in actual fact gay.  He just thought it would be fun to dress up as a specifually gay klingon and do the whole "camp" thing......  Hence the fact that people got offended.  We took the view that a Klingon is a Klingon is a Klingon and if gay Klingons exist they certainly wouldnt be wearing pink and doing the limp handshake etc...  and as in any group, some people are less tolerant than others.....

Kehlan

[naQ]

Hmmmm...
I think perhaps people confuse the 'hugeness' of homosexuality. I mean... being a homosexual is just that. It doesn't (to the woe of some) have anything inherit (except for the obvious), such as femininity or weakness. I don't think I would be any different as a Klingon if I was heterosexual (again, except for the obvious), so I don't really see what the big deal is. Even in "mainstream" Terran civilization, there's a huge drift in what people want homosexuals to be. So I guess I'm trying to communicate the idea that alot of Terran thought about homosexuality (in the present day at least) has some base in pre-disposed ideas and steriotypes.
So, since the Klingons seem not to have this dispossition, would there be such a big deal over homosexuality? I mean, if a male homosexual or female lesbien acted like every other Klingon, but with that small difference, I feel that there wouldn't be too big a problem socially over it. The self-described Klingons I have met in real life (which I should direct to this forum) have not seen a problem in me having a boyfriend (also *interested* in Klingon culture) or other homosexuals or bisexuals to approach them. (They explain they do not consider transsexuality a smart path, simply because males and females are viewed equally in Klingon culture, to a degree). This is because they're honourable in every other aspect. That doesn't speak for every Klingon...speaking of which, would it not be plausible that each Klingon have her/his own ideas about these subjects?   

[qoSagh]

Actually Klingons have quite a few preconceived notions. Romulans are treacherous, Vulcans who do not submit to being made tharavul should not be allow to observe much if anything, Kirk is a villain, etc. Most of these are based in fact.

If it were not for the various preconceived notions about Romulans, would Worf have argued so vehemently against that blood transfusion? Is that situation (although played for drama) really that much different than Archie Bunker's scenes about getting a transfusion of blood from a black donor (played for comedy)?

At the risk of venturing too far off the path here, I will bring up a discussion I had several years ago about why Vampire fandom was on the rise in our area and Klingon fandom seemed to be in a decline. My line brother gave me one of the best answers I have ever heard. He said that while Vampires were all about breaking society's rules Klingons were all about following some very strict rules, such as the code of honor.

I do think that Klignons base allot of how they perceive whatever group one belongs to. If there is such a thing as an honorable Romulan, what would it take for a Klingon to accept him at face value? Getting past generations of well documented treachery. If Jim Kirk were to personally offer the proverbial olive branch to the Empire, would they be likely to accept it? I doubt it. So like it or not if Klingons as a whole do not accept homosexuals (for whatever reason) then it would take an awful lot for any one single homosexual to break that barrier if at all possible.

As for the hugeness of homosexuality in Klingon culture, I think it would be more of an issue among Klingons than it is amongst humans for two reasons. First humans are not all that preoccupied with breeding, the very lucrative contraception business is evidence of the opposite in fact. Second the "rules" against homosexuality among humans are largely religious and as such only really apply to some specific sub groups of our population, which are joined by free will and association. Now many of these sub groups are quite large, but they do not, and can not by definition,  represent the whole.

[netlhQIn]

Again, I'll probably evoke some groans from those who would prefer this subject remain buried in the past.  Tough.  I feel like chiming in.

The empire is huge and there's no way one ultimate opinion on homosexuality could possibly cover all of the hundreds of planets involved!  Klingon's aren't human so you can't apply human arguments to them!  Blah, blah, blah.  These arguments often seem to arise in various parts of this forum in order to lend "credence" to the claims the person stating them gives later on in their post.  Yes, we know the Empire is big, we know Klingon's aren't human, in other areas we've discussed what's canon and what's not, and we know what an animal is contrary to some pretty useless arguments presented earlier on in this thread.  Such arguments really shouldn't be included in a discussion about the plausibility of Klingon homosexuality.

I like that elninjo mentioned that much of humanity's homophobia has been caused by religion.  This is true.  As little that we've seen of Klingon religious beliefs, none of it has anything to do with sexuality really, so there's no canon religious basis for homophobia among the species.

I suggest that so long as a Klingon is doing their duty to the Empire by having children, the rest of their society isn't going to care what (or who) they do in their free time.  So basically, as long as K'Jack and K'Diane are having Klingon pups, no one's going to care if K'Jack and his buddy K'Joe spend a longer time in the showers after batleh practice than some others might.  And no one's going to care if K'Diane and K'Judy enjoy their time together while the boys are at batleh practice.

Now, it's been mentioned several times that Klingons are not known for their tolerance of anything different.  This does mean, however, that if the condition I've described above with the Empire not caring about K'Jack's sexuality so long as he and K'Diane are still having kids is prevalent, that this would be the norm.  And homophobia and violent acts committed against homosexuals would not be the norm, and would therefore likely not be tolerated. 

However... and this is an essential addition to my statements, a major part of Klingon society is showing strength, and proving a lack of vulnerability and weakness.  There are very few acts of copulation that don't leave one participant or ther other in a fairly disadvantageous position - a position of vulnerability.  Sure, the women are tougher and gruffer than their human counterparts, but in the end someone's got to relent or there will be no new warriors.  While I can see Klingons relenting to this biological fact, I don't see them relenting in such a manner for an act that's purely for enjoyment.  So unless Klingon's perform the deeds in a manner quite unconventional to what we humans would consider typical, it's likely that one of the two (...or more...) is going to be proven weak by participating.

So, while I see no reason for Klingon's to be innately homophobic, I also see no justification in what we've seen of their society for a tolerance of homosexual behavior. 

[qoSagh]

The fact that this thread sits dormant for such a long time then gets revived periodically makes it one of my favorites, it shows perhaps more than any topic the true nature of the great Klingon debate.

netlhQIn makes some interesting points, I especially like the fact that we have seen nothing in canon that effectively argues either side of this debate. That makes this (for now) the exclusive domain of fandom. I had never really thought of the strength issue, but I like where netlhQIn went with that one.

As for our real life beliefs being justified by our Klingon arguments, I have seen that done more times than I can count on a variety of subjects and often on opposing sides of the same argument. To a certain extent that is just going to have to be accepted as part of being involved with Klingon fandom.

[Klythe]

Yes, we know the Empire is big, we know Klingon's aren't human, in other areas we've discussed what's canon and what's not, and we know what an animal is contrary to some pretty useless arguments presented earlier on in this thread.  Such arguments really shouldn't be included in a discussion about the plausibility of Klingon homosexuality.

     Useless?    "Silly" perhaps, but the only useless ideas are the ones no one argues over!   

I like that elninjo mentioned that much of humanity's homophobia has been caused by religion.  This is true.  As little that we've seen of Klingon religious beliefs, none of it has anything to do with sexuality really, so there's no canon religious basis for homophobia among the species.

     "Much" is a word I could pilot a K'tinga through, and I am not a very good pilot.    
It will be interesting to see to what extent nonreligious anti-homosexual sentiment has existed on Earth.  So much to argue, so little time to research properly.

However... and this is an essential addition to my statements, a major part of Klingon society is showing strength, and proving a lack of vulnerability and weakness.  There are very few acts of copulation that don't leave one participant or ther other in a fairly disadvantageous position - a position of vulnerability.  Sure, the women are tougher and gruffer than their human counterparts, but in the end someone's got to relent or there will be no new warriors.  While I can see Klingons relenting to this biological fact, I don't see them relenting in such a manner for an act that's purely for enjoyment.  So unless Klingon's perform the deeds in a manner quite unconventional to what we humans would consider typical, it's likely that one of the two (...or more...) is going to be proven weak by participating.

    Some day I will have to get my argument together for the sole of submission in a warrior culture such as the Klingon's.  This is something very subtle and ignored or forgotten by most fans, especially inexperienced ones.   

    In short, I agree with your point but would like to clarify it.  Clearly there must always be some who are stroner than others, there will be those who lead and those who follow.  If there was no submission except when mating, than any disagreement would ultimately result in a fight to the death.  So many warriors killing each other leaves few to fight the enemy.  Therefore there must be some way to submit that still shows strength your own strenth while acknowledging the superiority of another.   This is not the most glamourous aspect of Klingon culture, and as much as fans tend to avoid it, at some point sexual or not, you are right to note that someone does have to back down.   Klingons would also not make this kind of submission lightly.

[qoSagh]

From what we have seen of Klingon sex or at least the aftermath of it, there are many injuries to both parties, so I am not sure that submission comes quite as fast with Klingons as it does with humans. That being said, I think there is a subtle difference in the way that strength and submission works in the minds of Klingon males and females that may be relevant to this discussion.

While Klingon females are certainly stronger and tougher than their fragile human counterparts, they do not enjoy cultural equality within Klingon society. I do not think that there is a good human adjective that describes their placement because it is too complicated. However I think that in a male/female relationship there is likely a certain acceptance of ultimate submission at the end of the battle of sex. Seeing the relationship Martok and Sirella had has of course altered our perception of just who is submissive to who, but I do think that there is an acceptance factor that would not be present in either male/male or female/female relationships.

In a male/male relationship submission would be a dangerous thing to let on. It would be a sign of weakness that might alter ones perception in future battles (sexual or otherwise). In a female/female relationship I think it gets even more complicated. In order to submit to another female, one would have to place themselves less equal than one who is already not culturally equal to a male. This is a position that a warrior could not bear to be in, and I somehow doubt that a lady of a house would consider it much different.

This might make such couplings fatal, as in order to save face and ensure that your secret weakness is safe, one might have to kill the other one. No matter who wins, this would obviously not work for a long term sexual relationship. I am interested in what Klythe discovers about being able to show submission while saving face and surviving. This may very well be the answer to such a question.

However going back to my original point about breeding being important, would a Klingon want to bear the double burden of failing to increase the race while submitting to another at the same time? Perhaps what makes the submission palatable in a male/female relationship is the knowledge that you are potentially doing a good thing for the Empire as a whole. On a personal level I think it is all about pleasure but on a cultural level this may just be an important factor.

[ShinRa]

Well afaik homosexuality was illegal in the USSR, and I -believe- that was a secular state.

I might be wrong.

[Klythe]

Well afaik homosexuality was illegal in the USSR, and I -believe- that was a secular state.

I might be wrong.

 Correct, also Nazi Germany was very secular and sought to destroy religious institutions and replace them with nationalism.   If anyone thinks that the religious discrimination against homosexuality is at all comperable to the Nazi's treatment, they only need to do a small amount of research to discover otherwise.

Seeing the relationship Martok and Sirella had has of course altered our perception of just who is submissive to who, but I do think that there is an acceptance factor that would not be present in either male/male or female/female relationships.

In a male/male relationship submission would be a dangerous thing to let on. It would be a sign of weakness that might alter ones perception in future battles (sexual or otherwise). In a female/female relationship I think it gets even more complicated. In order to submit to another female, one would have to place themselves less equal than one who is already not culturally equal to a male. This is a position that a warrior could not bear to be in, and I somehow doubt that a lady of a house would consider it much different.

    Whoa there...  You just got off saying that males are submissive to females sexually, which actually is validated a number of times, not just Martoq and Sirella, but Riker and vekma, Worf and his reading of love poetry and dodging, and Grilka and Quark.   For counterexamples I can think of none.  Mara had no shyness about confronting Kang in "Day of the Dove".   Perhaps Worf and Ba'el, but that is because she is a half-romulan child raised in a Romulan prison colony surrounded by Klingons who had given up their Klingon identity.

    Then you turn around and claim that submitting to a female's sexual advances is a career limiting move, putting you among the lowest of the low...

    For one thing, bedroom submission, is just that, submission in the privacy of the bedroom.  It has only as much significance outside the bedroom as the two individuals wish it.   At least for hyoomins it is demonstrably not true.  I am given to understand that a segment of the most powerful terrans who are called upon to make decisions that affect they livelyhood of hundreds of thousands of employees and their families are far more likely to seek the services of a Dominatrix to make them submit utterly, balancing their lives by giving them orders and relieving and absolving them or responsibility of making decisions for a much appreciated perhaps all too brief interval.  A Mover and/or Shaker in the stock market who makes high risk decisions involving vast amounts of money based on the second-by-second fluctuations in stock price, may very well wish to have a private lifestyle with very few decisions, submitting to a spouse or trusted loved one.   Or they could be fulltime control freaks, it all depends on their personality.

From what we have seen of Klingon sex or at least the aftermath of it, there are many injuries to both parties, so I am not sure that submission comes quite as fast with Klingons as it does with humans. That being said, I think there is a subtle difference in the way that strength and submission works in the minds of Klingon males and females that may be relevant to this discussion.

   

    Going back to this point...   If injuries are appearing in both parties, then it is not the case of one dominant and the other submissive, but more likely a continual struggle for dominance moment-by-moment where submission is fleeting and not lasting.

   While there are a m/f positions that perhaps blur the line of who is dominant due to the differences in anatomy between the partners, same sex partners I think can only accomplish this through positions of symmetry.  This requires both partners to give and receive at the same rate as their partners which requires splitting focus on giving and receiving which reduces the amount of focus applied to both.   Although this does not preclude the above, waxing and waning of dominance/submission and giving/receiving.  Which may be paired up in perhaps unexpected of ways...   I think I'm really skirting the edges of abstraction to maintain the standards of this discussion.   

   Additionally the above is an opinion and speculation of a decidedly non-expert in the subject matter.

[ShinRa]

Bedroom submission and "Combat" submission are two entirely different things imo.

[Hamlet]

Though talking about a fictional alien culture (or several cultures under a dominant one), I can´t help but going back to old earth warrior cultures and how they managed with homosexuality.
I know the ancient Sparta example is not accurate, because ancient Greece was a very male-chauvinistic society. But I still think in the parternship/love comrades professed each other during battles (Think on Frank Miller´s 300 fictional version of spartan society)
Middle Age Japan samurais show us male to male relations in a honor driven society.
Old scandinavians provide also a good example: your preferences didn´t matter as you got married and made a lot of children. Of course, you had to be very dominant and play the male role in your sexual encounters, otherwise you would be considered a "sissy", and that was really annoying to be tolerated.

[elninjo]

I like that elninjo mentioned that much of humanity's homophobia has been caused by religion.  This is true.  As little that we've seen of Klingon religious beliefs, none of it has anything to do with sexuality really, so there's no canon religious basis for homophobia among the species.

Gee we are going back a ways and cant really be bothered searching for my post but I believe in the context that I was speaking I was drawing the attention to the fact that religion is almost non existent in the Klingon society. Inferring that if a culture was free from moral and religious restraints then you would be more likely to find homosexuality.

Carry on

[Klythe]

Gee we are going back a ways and cant really be bothered searching for my post but I believe in the context that I was speaking I was drawing the attention to the fact that religion is almost non existent in the Klingon society. Inferring that if a culture was free from moral and religious restraints then you would be more likely to find homosexuality.

Carry on

     A year and a half is not so much...   Not the way these forums move.  Anyway.  I would argue that historically, much of the worst persecution and abuse of homosexuals has been by civil authorities in not-particularly-religious cultures, such as Fascist Nazi Germany, and Communist Russia.   To my knowledge no church officials of any Terran religion has advocated much less oversaw and administered the internment of homosexuals to deathcamps... 

    I think the far problem is when a society becomes free from moral and ethical contraints rather than when they are bound by religious contraints, though that depends on the religion's stance on violence and it's policies towards people in and out of the religion.

[Kesvirit]

Gee we are going back a ways and cant really be bothered searching for my post but I believe in the context that I was speaking....

You can and should read an entire thread before posting to it. The point you wish to make may have already been expressed elsewhere in the thread, either by you or someone else. Mis-quoting oneself insults your fellow posters by implying that you do not care enough to get your facts straight, and that your ideas are so weak you can’t be bothered to defend them. It definitely costs one credibility with those who are both your fellow posters and your opponents in the arena of word warfare. There is no point in re-visiting old territory unless you have something new to add. And how much conviction can you have in your own beliefs if you not only can't remember them, but can't be bothered to look them up?

[adamas]

i am sure that is is possible for gay klingons to exist. however, seeing how it would be dishonorable to them and their house i find it exremely unlikely that one would choose to go that way. and if one did, im sure they would face banishment or worse.

[AS´ti]

This topic has been resting for long and is covering four pages already, but since I find this highly fascinating I'd like to chime in.

From what I read (although I have to admit I skimmed here and there), I notice a big flaw in the question "are there gay Klingons?". Most of the answers seem to address another question, namely "would gay Klingons be accepted, if they exist?".

Homosexuality is, here on earth, still not researched thoroughly enough to answer exactly what causes it. However, we can state for a fact that it occurs within humans an certain animals. However, that does not mean that if it is indeed a born-in genderpreference, it does occur in ALL species. Within that logic, Klingons might very well be without any homosexual feelings whatsoever, no matter what their overall view on it is (eg. if they would understand it in Terrans). It might also only occur in just females or just men.. or in fewer numbers than in Terrans.

Another point raised is that in Klingon culture, having offspring is the most important thing because it provide the Empire with new warriors. One of the theories around the 'surivival' of homosexuality from the point of evolution is that when one of the familymembers is gay (and does not procreate), that member will aid siblings who do have children, therefor giving said children the extra care and safety of another (male) adult, giving that offspring a headstart (and this continuing by proxy his own 'gay' genes as well).

Placing this in a Klingoncontext would make sense.. let's say Dad is a warrior with four kids. He wouldn't be home often and his offspring would be more vulnerable to attack than they would be with an extra male around to care for them. What if warrior-dad had a gay brother? If that brother would also be a warrior, he still wouldn't have children of his own to go home to, giving him extra time for his nephews and nieces during his R&R's.. or if he would have another profession he would still be likely to stay close to his youngest family members, giving them more chance of survival.

Any thoughts on this?

[El Payaso Malo]

Many warrior cultures such as Sparta had great emphasis on procreation and homosexuality. Homosexuality was the backbone of the Spartan education system. Many parts of Klingon culture were based on samurai. Shudō (衆道) was the Japanese practice of arranging relationships between older and younger samurai for the purpose of growth, sharing wisdom and personal development. This practice was at one time seen as essential to a warrior's experience.

[AS´ti]

Many warrior cultures such as Sparta had great emphasis on procreation and homosexuality. Homosexuality was the backbone of the Spartan education system. Many parts of Klingon culture were based on samurai. Shudō (衆道) was the Japanese practice of arranging relationships between older and younger samurai for the purpose of growth, sharing wisdom and personal development. This practice was at one time seen as essential to a warrior's experience.

I'm not sure if you are replying to me or just replying in general.. but if you are to me than you have misunderstood my point. Even though Klingon culture might be based on a Terran culture, fact is we're dealing with a completely different species, which means a different genetic make-up which in turn might mean that homosexuality might not even occur amongst Klingons. IF it does, people in previous posts have raised very valid points as to why it is very likely that as an alternative to a heterosexual family base, it will not be tolerated, since a strong family base with children to provide the Empire is less likely (if not impossible) with a homosexual couple. Any thoughts on this?

[El Payaso Malo]

I was replying in general. Since Klingon culture is just most of the Earth's warrior traditions mashed into one and multiplied, I was just demonstating how homosexuality could be tolerated or even mandatory in such a culture, while said culture continues to want its citizens to be fruitful and multiply. In those examples, homosexual behavior is on the side (i.e. it doesn't define you or your life, other than refusing in some cases is a serious break of tradition).

Klingons and humans are even the same species, if you use the current scientific definition of "species."

[AS´ti]

I was replying in general. Since Klingon culture is just most of the Earth's warrior traditions mashed into one and multiplied, I was just demonstating how homosexuality could be tolerated or even mandatory in such a culture, while said culture continues to want its citizens to be fruitful and multiply. In those examples, homosexual behavior is on the side (i.e. it doesn't define you or your life, other than refusing in some cases is a serious break of tradition).

You confuse sexual contact with proper loving relationships though. There is a world of difference between a guy getting it on with another guy but ending up in a heterosexual relationship and impregnanting his wife.. and two guys living monogamously together as a couple. Like I said before, I think that if homosexuality exists, the sexual act itself is probably tolerated, but I sincerely doubt that a monogamous gay relationship is.

Klingons and humans are even the same species, if you use the current scientific definition of "species."

Well, that definition is debatable, but if we for the sake of argument take humans and Klingons to be indeed the same species, than that still doesn't answer the question if homosexuality does occur in Klingons. They might be similar enough to humans to interbreed, but they do have genetic differences, most likely also hormonal differences and that might be enough to either not produce homosexuals or have far less of them.

[Kehlan]

Asti, you are asking a question that has no answer. It is not possible to know if Klingons have homosexuality or not.  It makes no difference whether they are the same species or different... because outside of role play, they don't exist.  Whether any alien races have homosexuality is a question that until we make first contact and meet them, we will never be able to answer.

WE can however speculate.  There are three possibilities and all three are equally plausible.  that there will be more homosexual Klingons, that there will be less, or that the percentage will be about the same.

On this planet, homosexuality is something that occurs naturally and in the wild and in more species than just humans. Recent research has proved that a full third of swans at a reserve, consisted of same sex pairs.  Now swans mate for life, so this isnt just a case of swans getting into a mating frenzy and grabbing anything that moves the way frogs do.  Its a definite lifestyle choice on the part of the swan.

We can also speculate about Klingon attitudes to homosexuality based on what we do know of their culture.  For various reasons, which I have stated before, I do not think they would be tolerant of it.  thats not to say it wouldnt happen, just that I dont think its something that would be approved of (nor am I saying that this attitude is a good or bad thing, just the way I think it would be)

I also wonder if attitudes towards homoesxuality can affect the numbers of homosexuals... what I mean is, that a society that is very repressive will tend to discourage young people from experimenting with their sexuality -ok, some will do it anyway, but alot will conform because thats what is expected of them. In a society  where it is dangerous to be homosexual, its going to be very much a hidden, furtive thing and not something a person will admit to, both to other people and maybe even to themselves.
A more open, permissive society however, will not condemn people for being what they are and in this type of society, people with differences from what is considered the norm are more likely to flourish.

The point of that being, that its possible that the attitudes of Klingon society may affect the question of how much homosexuality exists in the Klingon empire.

[El Payaso Malo]

That is a very good theory! I feel that even if it is illegal, it will be just as common, but underground. But AS'ti is suggesting that it may not occur among them at all. In that case, they wouldn't even need laws regulating it, and they probably wouldn't be familiar with the concept or have a word for it.

[AS´ti]

Asti, you are asking a question that has no answer. It is not possible to know if Klingons have homosexuality or not.  It makes no difference whether they are the same species or different... because outside of role play, they don't exist.  Whether any alien races have homosexuality is a question that until we make first contact and meet them, we will never be able to answer.

Yes ofcourse, but as with most philosophical or for that matter, fantasy/sc-fi things, everything is also possible within the realm of logical thinking and obviously beforehand answers are not set.

WE can however speculate.  There are three possibilities and all three are equally plausible.  that there will be more homosexual Klingons, that there will be less, or that the percentage will be about the same.

Yes or the fourth, that there is NO homosexuality.

On this planet, homosexuality is something that occurs naturally and in the wild and in more species than just humans.

Yes, but there is no reason to assume it occurs in ALL species. And again, earthlife does not equal alienlife. Plus to use your own argument, since they don't exist outside of role-play and since we are the ones role-playing, we could basically just make up the rule right now if we wanted to, unless something in the canon would prove us wrong.

I also wonder if attitudes towards homoesxuality can affect the numbers of homosexuals...

You are confusing several things here. First, people are homosexual or not. You can't catch being gay from seeing it in the streets or on tv. Hence my whole point about it being a genetic thing and thus possibly not occuring in another race. A lot of aspects are race-based, like tolerance towards certain medications between caucasians and africans for example, or the occurence of certain diseases.
If they are open about it and if they would be recognisable as such is a whole different matter. A society not being open about it will not mean that a man won't be sexually attracted to another man, regardless of acting upon it or not. Same for falling in love with another man. Secondly, there is more than just homosexuality versus heterosexuality. The huge wide area of bisexuality might also play a part in their culture, as it does in ours. For all we know, they might all be bisexual but mostly leaning towards the heterosexual tip of the balance.

The point of that being, that its possible that the attitudes of Klingon society may affect the question of how much homosexuality exists in the Klingon empire.

Again, you can't catch gay. It would only affect the openly display of the feelings, not the actual occurence. Being gay is a nature thing, not a nurture one.

[Kehlan]

Yes or the fourth, that there is NO homosexuality.

Well yes of course... no homosexuality would count as less.

Yes, but there is no reason to assume it occurs in ALL species. And again, earthlife does not equal alienlife.

I didnt claim it did occur in ALL species.  I dont know enough about all species to say something that sweeping.  I simply said it occurs in more than just humans, which means there is a good possibility that it MIGHT happen in alien species as well.  Until we meet the alien, we wont know for certain.

Plus to use your own argument, since they don't exist outside of role-play and since we are the ones role-playing, we could basically just make up the rule right now if we wanted to, unless something in the canon would prove us wrong.

Well yes, of course we could.  And in the end, thats what we will do... you are not going to change your opinions because I disagree with them and vice versa, hence my RP will end up being a little different to yours.. until Paramount dcide to answer the question and make it canon one way or the other.

You are confusing several things here. First, people are homosexual or not. You can't catch being gay from seeing it in the streets or on tv. Hence my whole point about it being a genetic thing and thus possibly not occuring in another race. A lot of aspects are race-based, like tolerance towards certain medications between caucasians and africans for example, or the occurence of certain diseases.
If they are open about it and if they would be recognisable as such is a whole different matter. A society not being open about it will not mean that a man won't be sexually attracted to another man, regardless of acting upon it or not. Same for falling in love with another man. Secondly, there is more than just homosexuality versus heterosexuality. The huge wide area of bisexuality might also play a part in their culture, as it does in ours. For all we know, they might all be bisexual but mostly leaning towards the heterosexual tip of the balance.

I'm not confusing anything, I'm just saying its more complicated than just being born with a gay gene.

Again, you can't catch gay. It would only affect the openly display of the feelings, not the actual occurence. Being gay is a nature thing, not a nurture one.

Actually, thats not proven. No gay gene has been identified, not yet anyway. I;m not saying you can catch it, its not a disease after all.  I'm saying that a very repressive society may have less gays because of less awareness of the possibility of gayness.  A young man may have gay inclinations but may not know its even possible to act on them and may spend his entire life living a 'normal' acceptable life with a wife and kids, probably never quite sure why he isnt really happy.

Its certainly going to affect the numbers of countable gays.  ITs a bit hard to find a true number if the person is going to end up in prison for admitting to it. 

In a very permissive society, alot of kids play around with homosexuality (and dont deny it because Ive seen it) some of them are truely gay, some are just going through a phase, whether because theyre rebelling, or think its cool is hard to say.  Try doing a count in a permissive society and you'll get a fair few who claim to be gay but arent really (again I do know some kids that have  done this)

The true number of gays may be the same in both societies, but try counting them and its almost guaranteed you'll get diffferent results, purely because any such survey or count relies on the honesty of the person you are asking.

If you go back and read my post properly, all I was trying to ask was, is there a possibility that there are sociological factors that could influence the issue?

I'm also saying that speculation is all we have due to the RP thing.  that means in a discussion like this, all opinions are equally valid (provided they are expressed politely)