Klingon homosexuality

[qoSagh]

Even the swarthy, Mongol Klingons had moral boundaries, just not human ones. Being Klingon is all about following the rules, staying inside of the boundaries. In that, I would have to agree that they do actually exist.

As for it being clear that Homosexual Klingons would exist, I don't see how we have enough evidence either way. Assuming that since there are homosexual humans (or even animals) in no way validates the existence of homosexual Klingons. We have seen very little about the matter other than what we have seen about family structure and lineage, and there has been no overt material included there.

As I said in my earlier posts, I do not think this would be accepted or even occur in the Klingon Empire.

[elninjo]

    I strongly disagree.  Klingons are far from being without moral boundaries.   In fact, if you say thier culture is based on honor, then you are saying that it is based on moral boundaries. 

Not at all…….Moral boundaries in the context that it was used, refers to sexual conduct/boundaries not as a general term: We have seen Klingons and other species “get together” with no real phobias about the thought. So I come to the conclusion that if they have no problems with “getting it together” with non Klingons (we call it beastiality) then they surely wouldn’t have any phobias about same sex sex.
The definition of animalistic or animalism is enjoyment of vigorous health and physical drives and honorable is to be true to yourself and your beliefs no matter the consequences. Ie: A terrorist is also honorable in that he/she will die for what they believe is right.

So in my opinion, one can be immoral (in the context that it was used), honorable AND animalistic all at the same time but more importantly I beleive that the Klingon race would not have any real phobias about homosexuality.

Cheers

[Kehlan]

So I come to the conclusion that if they have no problems with “getting it together” with non Klingons (we call it beastiality) then they surely wouldn’t have any phobias about same sex sex.

Bestiality refers to sex with animals not sex with aliens/other intelligent beings.  I am no grammar expert but the klingon language has two suffixes - one for animals and one for beings that use language - I suggest therefore that they have good reasons for distinuishing between the two.

The definition of animalistic or animalism is enjoyment of vigorous health and physical drives and honorable is to be true to yourself and your beliefs no matter the consequences. Ie: A terrorist is also honorable in that he/she will die for what they believe is right.

not in my dictionary, it doesnt.

And you are confusing terrorists with freedom fighters - they are not the same thing at all - there is nothing honourable about random killing of children in a school such as happened in Russia.  Freedom fighters who engage legitimate military/government targets may have honour but Terrorists dont - ever!

anyway, thats getting a bit off topic.  I am not sure how Klingons would react to homosexual behaviour - but even if they tolerate it, I really can't see it being encouraged or celebrated the way it is here.  Klingons doing those gay pride parades - I doubt it somehow!

[elninjo]

the klingon language has two suffixes - one for animals and one for beings that use language

Really? Well that IS interesting albeit irrelevant and I might add opens up a can of worms. Define the word language please.
The point I was making was that if Klingons have no problems crossing the line with a species then why would they have any problems with crossing that same line with same sex? It is Natural Diversity
Honour is not defined as any “act” but as a value that one holds and I am not confusing terrorists with anything…… Honour to one culture is dishonour to another 
It is evident that you are “closed” to this notion and the very thought of a gay klingon (especially male) makes you go ewwww. It is also evident that we humans are very quick to “sterotype” situations. Gay pride marches?? Come on mate not all gays participate in marches and not all gay men are, sissies and limp wrested. But also why do you think that if Klingons did have homosexuality that they too would engage in such things as gay pride marches?... Gay pride marches are to make the “ignorant” aware that homosexuals are a part of our culture and diversity.
There may not be any evidence that Klingons have or would accept homosexuality but there is enough evidence in our diverse world of millions of different speicies to extrapolate that they would indeed have homosexuality and that they would accept it.
This is irrelevant but for the record I personally am not gay. I wouldn’t like to give the wrong impression here.
I hope I havent offended any one here but I find this topic very interesting.

Cheers

[Klythe]

Really? Well that IS interesting albeit irrelevant

     We found it relevant before.  The whole topic was discussed in length in the Plurals, -mey vs pu' thread.  Read it and see if you disagree with our conclusions, I'd love to reopen that topic, it is my favourite. 

     Her point is that you misspoke if you were implying that bestiality is the same as cross-species sex amongst sapients.

Define the word language please.

Of the characteristics that the field in general seems to agree upon, there are six major language universals as developed by someone named Hotchkiss as explained at http://www.rpi.edu/~verwyc/liguni.htm. I'll spare you the details, but they are: Semanticity, Arbitrariness, Flexibility of symbols, Naming, Productivity, and Displacement.

     Sounds like a challenge.   I'm up for it.  Hmmm.

Language:        A set of largely arbitrary patterns (often but not exclusively verbal) forming symbols capable of displacement from the concrete context which represent mental abstractions combine with a set of semantic rules for combining the symbols in a meaningful way.

    Does that work for you?  I defined a test for language, it's far from perfect, but it's probably good enough for Klingons.

It is evident that you are “closed” to this notion and the very thought of a gay klingon (especially male) makes you go ewwww.

     Be careful assuming things about other forum members.   Let's all stick to the issues and not get personal.

But also why do you think that if Klingons did have homosexuality that they too would engage in such things as gay pride marches?... Gay pride marches are to make the “ignorant” aware that homosexuals are a part of our culture and diversity.

    That is a good guestion.  How would Klingon homosexuals indicate their preference to each other?  There have been a number of subtle ways hyoomins have indicated...  The left/right single ear rings are a historical leftover from a 'hanky code' where color and placement communicated certain preferences that 'ignorant' individuals would not be aware of.  Of course this depends on how acceptable it is. 

    It is important to raise young warriors to replace warriors who have died, which they tend to rather a lot.  That is one reason why any cultire would tend to encourage relationships that create viable offspring and tend to discourage those that don't.  Klingons in particular would need a fairly high birthrate to maintain population, and evidence points to Klingon single births(with perhaps at least uncommon multiple births), which means either long fertility cycles to allow fewer females who choose to breed and successfully find mates to produce more young over their life, or a strong preference toward encouraging many male+female couples.


I know I already replied to this but here's a side comment I forgot to add at the time.

Just returning to the "sissy" issue for a moment, "Diplomatic Implausibility" by Keith Decandido has a character in it that fits that description pretty well.  I've forgotten the character's name (and can't find the book on my shelves to check it) but the other Klingons refer to him as a Grishnar Cat and wonder among themselves why they have allowed him to live so long.  I think they concluded that his survival was due only to the fact that he was actually useful, even if very annoying.

    Frankly, I don't think grishnar cat by itself ought to be an insult.  From what I get from the only canonical reference to them, when Gowron doubted Sisco had upgraded the weapons systems on DS9, likening him to a "toothless, old grishnar cat, trying to scare us with his roar", that roars from young, toothed grishnar cats are to be taken seriously.

[elninjo]

Beastiality is defined as having sex with animals and “animal” is defined as an animal “organism” other than a human. So people beastiality it is, like it or not.
Language in my dictionary is defined as communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols. 
I would like to point out that there are other species on this planet that have the gift of language. One that comes to mind is the dolphin and this is well documented. I believe you would classify a dolphin as an animal…..Yes??

     Be careful assuming things about other forum members.   Let's all stick to the issues and not get personal.

  Oh Im sorry I thought that kehlans comments about me confusing terrorists with freedom fighters was an assumption!! I didn’t even mention freedom fighters. I thought that this was a debate. It seems there are 2 sets of rules here. Is it ok for kehlan to assume I am confused but its not ok for me to assume that she is closed to the notion.

   That is a good guestion.  How would Klingon homosexuals indicate their preference to each other? 

Are you suggesting that Gay pride marches are for homosexuals to indicate their preference to each other? I don’t know about the rest of the world but our gay marches are only held once a year. They, as I have said are for the purpose of gaining acceptance from our communities.
I didn’t ask “how would klingon homosexuals indicate their preference to each other I asked why you think just because humans have gay marches that klingons would have them also.

[Kehlan]

Beastiality is defined as having sex with animals and “animal” is defined as an animal “organism” other than a human. So people beastiality it is, like it or not.

As it stands you are quite correct - at the moment, the assumption is there is no intelligent life other than homo sapiens.(ignoring for the moment creatures like dolphins)  should aliens be discovered for definite then I suspect the dictionary definitions of some words would have to change as I don't think that vulcans, klingons etc could be defined as animals.

My comments about grammar were to indicate that Klingons have already taken this issue into account and dealt with the concept of non-Klingon intelligent life - I suspect their definition of besitality is a little different to ours

Oh Im sorry I thought that kehlans comments about me confusing terrorists with freedom fighters was an assumption!! I didn’t even mention freedom fighters. I thought that this was a debate. It seems there are 2 sets of rules here. Is it ok for kehlan to assume I am confused but its not ok for me to assume that she is closed to the notion.

you were the one who brought up this subject. And I did admit that I was getting off topic there.  I'm afraid the concept of terrorism being honourable is something I do find offensive.  That is why I distinuished between them and freedom fighters (who are often referred to by governments as terrorists). 

I am also not closed to the issue as you acuse me of being.  I did say in an earlier post that personally, as a human, I don't care what sexuality my friends are - and as it happens, one of my very best friends is gay.  I have been trying to examine the issue from a Klingon viewpoint, not a human viewpoint (the human one after all is irrelevant, we all know what humans think about it - the question was what Klingons (as opposed to humans playing at being Klingon) would think.  You think it would be completely acceptable and thats fine.  I think it would be more complicated than that.  Others here think its completely unnacceptable (and thats equally fine).  until we meet a real Klingon we will never know for sure which it is - and thats the point of this debate, not to make personal attacks on othe forum users.

   That is a good guestion.  How would Klingon homosexuals indicate their preference to each other? 

Actually that is a good question.

Are you suggesting that Gay pride marches are for homosexuals to indicate their preference to each other? I don’t know about the rest of the world but our gay marches are only held once a year. They, as I have said are for the purpose of gaining acceptance from our communities.
I didn’t ask “how would klingon homosexuals indicate their preference to each other I asked why you think just because humans have gay marches that klingons would have them also.

I did not think Klingons would have these marches - I actually said - gay marches - I don't think so!  I honestly do not understand the need for such marches - or the constant fuss about the subject.  Why the need to jump up and down and shout I am gay?  (I'm not as it happens and I dont jump up and down and shout that I am not gay)
What is there to be proud of about being gay (or being not gay)?  If it is what someone is, it is part of them so why do we humans make all this fuss?

By the way, going off topic again, I am not homophobic.  I will admit though that as most of the gay men I know are so incredibly good looking - and nice people as well, that from a purely female viewpoint, I think its not fair that those genes won't get passed to the next generation! (I'm joking by the way, so please dont take that too seriously)

[Klythe]

Beastiality is defined as having sex with animals and “animal” is defined as an animal “organism” other than a human

    So by your definition, Venus Flytraps and Ameobas are both animals because they both are non-hyoomin organisms?   As with all things, it depends on who is doing the defining.  The scientific definition of animals INCLUDES Hyoomins and other sapient life, while the common definition only includes non-sapient feral animal does not. 

    Meriam Webster provides several defintions,  The first being the scientific defintion that includes hyoomins as animals.  The second defintion is  "one of the lower animals as distinguished from human beings". The definition of "lower animals" is very grey for hyoomins, but much sharper for Klingons.  See the Plurals thread for more info.

Language in my dictionary is defined as communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.
I would like to point out that there are other species on this planet that have the gift of language. One that comes to mind is the dolphin and this is well documented. I believe you would classify a dolphin as an animal…..Yes??

 
    I would classify myself as an animal, since I am capable of self motivation (at least when I have my kafei .  It has yet to be determined if the communication used by dolphins is capable of displacement, syntacticly formed or capable of supporting abstract thought.  Dolphins may eventually be defined as sapiens, but until we can understand thier communication to the degree where we can validate it, I wouldn't hold your breath that most people will agree.  I have discussed my test for language use in the plurals thread.  I agree it ther is some grey in the line, but it is telling that Klingons  make a grammatical distinction, so they seem to draw the line a lot darker than we do.

[elninjo]

    So by your definition, Venus Flytraps and Ameobas are both animals because they both are non-hyoomin organisms? 

Klythe don’t insult my intelegence. You know as well as I do that a venus flytraps is NOT an animal, as far as Ameobas is concerned I have no idea what that is so I cannot comment.

Kahlen if I have offended you I am truly sorry, it was never my intent to insult you. <S>. I guess my reference to a terrorist being honourable was a dumb example.
Just to clarify one thing though I definitely did not accuse you of being “Homophobic” what I said was that I felt you were closed to the notion of a gay Klingon.
Having said all of that I can see that we will never agree on this issue and there is not enough common ground between the 3 of us to debate this issue effectively.
So Klythe, I have book marked your plurals/language thread and once I know more about the Klingon language I will most definitely take up your/my challenge. Rest assured of that. <S> you both.

Cheers

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Having said all of that I can see that we will never agree on this issue and there is not enough common ground between the 3 of us to debate this issue effectively.
So Klythe, I have book marked your plurals/language thread and once I know more about the Klingon language I will most definitely take up your/my challenge. Rest assured of that. <S> you both.

Cheers

maj! tugh SuSuvchuqqa'!

maj = good!
tugh = soon
Su- = suffix, 2nd person plural, no object
Suv = fight
-chuq = one another
-qa' = resume

[Kehlan]

Klythe don’t insult my intelegence. You know as well as I do that a venus flytraps is NOT an animal, as far as Ameobas is concerned I have no idea what that is so I cannot comment.

an amoeba (note spelling) is a single celled organism that is probably the simplest life form other than bacteria and viruses (if they are even allive)

Kahlen if I have offended you I am truly sorry, it was never my intent to insult you. <S>. I guess my reference to a terrorist being honourable was a dumb example.
Just to clarify one thing though I definitely did not accuse you of being “Homophobic” what I said was that I felt you were closed to the notion of a gay Klingon.

Ok, no offence taken.  Terrorism is a bit of a touchy subject here at the moment.
I just wanted to let it be known that I am not homophobic.  I have been trying to distinguish betweeen what I think as a human and what Kehlan might think and the one thing we agree on is that there will be gay Klingons, that is almost a biological certainty.

What we are not so sure about is the level of acceptance of them.  Look how much we humans are arguing over it - and Klingons are alot more argumentative and battle ready than we are.  Its bound to be as controversial there as it is here.


Kehlan

[SoplaHtaHwI']

the one thing we agree on is that there will be gay Klingons, that is almost a biological certainty.

What we are not so sure about is the level of acceptance of them.  Look how much we humans are arguing over it - and Klingons are alot more argumentative and battle ready than we are.  Its bound to be as controversial there as it is here.

I think this is as much a factor as the perceived unnaturalness of GLBT is. Man and Klingon alike are by nature argumentative and unaccepting that which is different. There will always be some group that's against the whole idea. Furthermore the high necessity of procreation and the obvious incapacity GLBT personae have in this is most likely very much a factor in how Klingons as a whole and certain Klingons specifically react to individuals with this "otherness"

[elninjo]

an amoeba (note spelling) is a single celled organism that is probably the simplest life form other than bacteria and viruses (if they are even allive)

Thank you, Kahlen. If they are even alive? Hmmm interesting point of view there Kahlen, another debate in itself.
Just as a side note, it would be good to have a “tongue in cheek” Klingon emotocon

the one thing we agree on is that there will be gay Klingons, that is almost a biological certainty.)

OK good, we agree on this point. So if we agree that there will definitely be gay Klingons then I put it to you that it is a natural progression to acceptance.
Acceptance of such things come with understanding, debate and lobbying. If there is no logical reason not to accept it then eventually it will be accepted.

SoplaHtaHwI, I understand the necessity for procreation. This is an issue in the human species also, despite our planet being over populated. However, as I have said before we have seen Klingons “cross the line” sexually with other species with little problems. They cross this line for the purpose of sexual gratification only not procreation. Further if we agree that there will most certainly be gay Klingons then plutonic relationships (sisters, brothers, friends, family) between Klingons come into play here to bring about acceptance.
If someone you know is gay and you accept that, then your acceptance of it influences your outlook and responses to that type of activity in your normal life.

Let me hypothesize here for a moment.

I, to my knowledge have no one gay in my life. I am homophobic. I don’t agree with gay marriages and think that it should not be accepted or encouraged in our society in any way.
My older sister who I am very close to, has had numerous boy friends but never sees any of them more than a few times. I discuss this with her and after some lengthy discussion she tells me she is gay.
I accept her homosexuality as it is something that I can not change.
After years of this knowledge I find my opinions are now different to what they had been all my life. Why? I love my sister dearly and only want her to be happy. I understand that she is not happy with the norm and needs to feel apart of our society.

Kahlen, you say you are not gay but you do have gay friends, surely you must understand this concept.


Cheers

[Kehlan]

OK good, we agree on this point. So if we agree that there will definitely be gay Klingons then I put it to you that it is a natural progression to acceptance.
Acceptance of such things come with understanding, debate and lobbying. If there is no logical reason not to accept it then eventually it will be accepted.

Natural progression to acceptance?  Unfortunately human beings are arrogant, bigotted and intolerant of anything that is even slightly different.  We are still racist and judge people on things like the colour of their skin, or whether they wear a hijab.  Sadly a large number of people are still very homophobic and it is not that long since you could go to prison for being gay. How many people were openly gay 100 years ago?   Things have changed and will continue to change but it is slow and will take time.

It would be nice to think that Klingons are more tolerant than us humans.  I really hope so, but if we are this divided on the subject, how much more would a Klingon be likely to fight over it.

Kahlen, you say you are not gay but you do have gay friends, surely you must understand this concept.

Yes, I do understand it perfectly - but in real life I am (unfortunately) a human, not a Klingon and have been trying to discuss it from that angle.

[Klythe]

    I am glad you have decided to stay with the conversation.   I was not trying to insult your intelligence,I was counting on challenging it, so you would consider that ther are multiple defintions of the word "animal", and no one definition can cover every way it is possible to use the word.  That is a feature of language, brought up in the other thread "flexibility of symbols".

Thank you, Kahlen. If they are even alive? Hmmm interesting point of view there Kahlen, another debate in itself.

    Biologists have made a short list of things that all organism do, and viruses don't by themselves do all of them.  Notably they need other cells in order for them to reproduce themselves.  So they are often considered semi-life, quasi-life, psuedolife or proto-life.  I think there are other types of microbes that are not full fledged organism, and also that amoebas are probably not the simplest single-celled organisms, but one of the more famous.

Just as a side note, it would be good to have a “tongue in cheek” Klingon emotocon

 

     Considereing Klingons are supposed to be direct and forthright, it seems counter-intuitive...  Then again we have Embarrased and Crying, when Klingons are said not to be able to cry...  So...  We'll see.

So if we agree that there will definitely be gay Klingons then I put it to you that it is a natural progression to acceptance.
Acceptance of such things come with understanding, debate and lobbying. If there is no logical reason not to accept it then eventually it will be accepted.

    Depends what type of logic you are applying.  Vulcan logic?  Hyooman Logic?   Forget it.  We are trying to Figure out Klingon logic, and it's not a matter of mathematics, theorems, and alegbraic proofs.  Klingon logic is more about instinct and strength.   To what degree is the Empire stronger for accepting and to what degree are they stronger for rejecting.  This may change from generation to generation depending on the enemies and opponents available to the empire. 

SoplaHtaHwI, I understand the necessity for procreation. This is an issue in the human species also, despite our planet being over populated. However, as I have said before we have seen Klingons “cross the line” sexually with other species with little problems. They cross this line for the purpose of sexual gratification only not procreation.

     Can you back up this assertion a little better?   Given that we have seen Klingons sucessfully interbreed with Terrans, Romulans, and other species, I don't think the issue is entirely as clear on that point as you claim.

Further if we agree that there will most certainly be gay Klingons then plutonic relationships (sisters, brothers, friends, family) between Klingons come into play here to bring about acceptance.  If someone you know is gay and you accept that, then your acceptance of it influences your outlook and responses to that type of activity in your normal life.

     I take it you mean "Platonic"...  Heheh, it's for the Greek philosopher Plato not the Roman god Pluto.   Pluto I think was a bit of a devilish charater...

    It again it depends on the Cultrue.  Each culture has thier own priorities and perceptions.  Klingons value Family, but they are said to place Honor before family.   If homosexuality was viewed as a matter of Honor, then it would most likely overule the bonds of family, House and Line.  Kahless after all, did not merely excuse his brother's tyrrany because they were brothers.  So... Would it be considered a matter of Honor?  Is this a contant, or does it change with time or situation?    When would the population of the empire raise to the point that it is not an Honor issue?  When would it fall to the point that it is again?   

[SoplaHtaHwI']

     I take it you mean "Platonic"...  Heheh, it's for the Greek philosopher Plato not the Roman god Pluto.   Pluto I think was a bit of a devilish charater...

Could this then be considered a freudian slip? 

    It again it depends on the Cultrue.  Each culture has thier own priorities and perceptions.  Klingons value Family, but they are said to place Honor before family.   If homosexuality was viewed as a matter of Honor, then it would most likely overule the bonds of family, House and Line.  Kahless after all, did not merely excuse his brother's tyrrany because they were brothers.  So... Would it be considered a matter of Honor?  Is this a contant, or does it change with time or situation?    When would the population of the empire raise to the point that it is not an Honor issue?  When would it fall to the point that it is again?

I've been wondering about this in-family honour thing...

I don't know how well-known the issue of "honour revenge" is in non-Europe, but here we have a slight problem with this. A girl/woman chooses a "mate" who has not been approved by her family and this then gets addressed by said family. The appointed male family member is sent out to take care of "the situation".

It is perceived as ignorant and barbaric. Question is: what would Kahless (or any other Klingon, for that matter) do (to put it in a popular format)?

[qoSagh]

Wonderful to see that this debate has gotten a bit less mean, however there is still much to debate.

We do not all agree on the purported biological certainty of there being gay klingons. While I agree that we have little if any data to back up claims, it just doesn't seem all that plausible to use the theory, that if something exists among Humans, animal or even Amoebas, then it logically must exist among Klingons. This is another example of what I have come to term over the years as Shoeboxing.

As for Bestiality, it is interesting that it comes up in this context. Since Klingons have taken the step to linguistically define beings capable of using language. I think the ability to have sex with a human has little to do with the general ickiness of having sex with a Targh or a Grishnar Cat. If we use the definition/theory of beast being anything that is not human, then even two Klingons having sex would be considered bestiality, which I'm sure was not the intent of the statement. I find it interesting also, that when the recent debates on gay marriage started here in America, one of the opinions about redefining marriage was that if we change the law to allow gay marriages can we logically prevent people from marrying their pets? The reply was that comparing homosexuality to bestiality was like the proverbial apples and oranges, which I find especially appropriate to this debate. Assuming that since a male Klingon could/would have sex with a female human it logically would follow that he (or others like him) would obviously also have sex with Klingons males is a ridiculous argument at best.

The idea that Klingons are more accepting than humans because humans are arrogant, bigoted and intolerant of anything that is even slightly different, is also a bit of a falsehood. Klingons most times seem to have taken arrogance, bigotry and intolerance of ones differences to a high artform. If anything, I think Klingons would be quite a bit less accepting of such differences, including but not limited to homosexuality.

As for Shoeboxing, it is the habit of putting everything into one big metaphorical shoebox and shaking it until it is mixed. The original Shoebox Klingon was someone I knew who was a Klingon, and played video games on the old Sega Genesis system. He declared that all Klingons obviously played Sega. While it is more lighthearted than our present debate, such syllogisms are rarely accurate. I make noise, bugs make noise, therefore I am a bug is every bit as inaccurate as I am Klingon, I wish humans were more accepting of gays, therefore Klingons would obviously be more accepting of gays.

[Kehlan]

We do not all agree on the purported biological certainty of there being gay klingons. While I agree that we have little if any data to back up claims, it just doesn't seem all that plausible to use the theory, that if something exists among Humans, animal or even Amoebas, then it logically must exist among Klingons. This is another example of what I have come to term over the years as Shoeboxing.

Obviously the whole debate is completely theoretical until we meet some "real" Klingons.  I have been making the assumption that they exist and for the sake of this argument will continue to make that assumption  - as if they do not exist then the question of acceptance becomes academic.  I do think though that it would be ALMOST a biological certainty if only due to genetic factors - and yes, I know that not all gays are gay because of genetic factors, there is a social element as well.  I wont argue that as I don't claim to be an expert on what "causes" people to be gay.  (reading that, I'm making it sound like an illness or something, thats not my intent)

If we use the definition/theory of beast being anything that is not human, then even two Klingons having sex would be considered bestiality, which I'm sure was not the intent of the statement.

no, bestiality would be a human having sex with a klingon under that definition, a dog having sex with a dog is not bestiality.

I have also operated under the assumption that definitions would change if intelligent alien life were discovered.  At the moment humans are the only intelligent life that we know about for definite (I am choosing to ignore the dolphin issue here) and that is reflected in dictionary definitions.

The idea that Klingons are more accepting than humans because humans are arrogant, bigoted and intolerant of anything that is even slightly different, is also a bit of a falsehood. Klingons most times seem to have taken arrogance, bigotry and intolerance of ones differences to a high artform. If anything, I think Klingons would be quite a bit less accepting of such differences, including but not limited to homosexuality.

Well, yes.  thats what I was saying.  If we humans are that argumentative, how much more so would Klingons be?  Is it possible you are misunderstanding my statement that it would be nice if they were more understanding?  It would be nice!  But nice is not a word often associated with Klingons.  I suspect that any discussion among real Klingons would be far more violent than this discussion.

[elninjo]

OMG..........I can see that this is gonna take some time......lol

I havent given up the fight just yet people

KLYTHE:::::::::when Klingons are said not to be able to cry

Klythe I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, but Mr. Spock ONCE said Klingons lack tear ducts, although Klingon myth states that Kahless once filled the ocean with his tears.
When you say klingons are unable to cry, are you inferring that they don’t have any feelings/emotions?

KLYTHE:::::: Can you back up this assertion a little better?   Given that we have seen Klingons successfully interbreed with Terrans, Romulans, and other species, I don't think the issue is entirely as clear on that point as you claim.

My apologies….Yes agreed they do breed but not for the good of the Klingon Empire. By interbreeding with other species they dilute the Klingon gene pool. Correct me if I’m wrong but Klingons have Classes of peoples and half breeds are considered a lesser class

KLYTHE::::     I take it you mean "Platonic"...  Heheh, it's for the Greek philosopher Plato not the Roman god Pluto.   Pluto I think was a bit of a devilish character
SoplaHtaHwI Could this then be considered a freudian slip? 

LMAO….Good to see that you also have a sense of humor

KLYTHE:::: Kahless after all, did not merely excuse his brother's tyranny because they were brothers.  So... Would it be considered a matter of Honor?

 

Well, I’m speaking from a human point of view but I personally would not excuse my brother for murder, armed robbery, rape etc but I most certainly would excuse him for something like homosexuality. There is a logical reason for not accepting such things as murder.

QOSAHG:::: it just doesn't seem all that plausible to use the theory, that if something exists among Humans, animal or even Amoebas, then it logically must exist among Klingons

Going back to the reference of the symbionts. These symbionts were indifferent to their human form in their interaction with each other.
Interactions between these two beings were purely emotional (for want of a better word) not on their physical appearances/attributes.

QOSAHG ::::If anything, I think Klingons would be quite a bit less accepting of such differences, including but not limited to homosexuality.

KAHLEN: Well, yes.  that’s what I was saying.  If we humans are that argumentative, how much more so would Klingons be?  Is it possible you are misunderstanding my statement that it would be nice if they were more understanding?  It would be nice!

The fact that Klingons, unlike us humans interact with many different sentient beings, with so many different cultures would suggest to me that they would be more tolerant of such differences. They must interact with many species and they are also involved in the peace process with these species. They also make exceptions.
Only once was a subject race given Flag Rank, and this was because the dying Klingon general on a planet being overrun by Kzinti forces had no more ethnic Klingon officers available. When Klingon forces relieved General Kobal's successful resistance, he retained his rank and was treated as a hero

KAHLEN:::: I know that not all gays are gay because of genetic factors, there is a social element as well.  I wont argue that as I don't claim to be an expert on what "causes" people to be gay.

There is no scientific research indicating a biological or genetic cause for homosexuality

Sorry about the quotes but it was just too time consuming to do it the long way.

[qoSagh]

As for Klingons needing to be more accepting because they deal with more races than humans, this is hogwash. If we are assuming Klingons to be real, we are probably also assuming first contact to have happened already. Since all of the examples we have cited on either side have been on Star Trek, the humans we are dealing with have been 22nd to 24th century, and therefore have dealt with at least as many races as the Klingons.

When the humans (or the Federation as a whole) deal with a new race, it is as equals. They embrace their differences, and work toward that new race joining the federation. When the Klingons meet a new race, it is always as adversaries. Klingons either kill that race and take what they need through conquest, or subjugate that race as servants and take what they need through conquest. There is most likely no celebrations of each others differences.

Oh and as for any relation being Plutonic, perhaps it is not the philosopher but Mickey Mouse's dog that is referenced. That not only brings up the Bestiality issue, but also the toon issue.

[elninjo]

Wonderful to see that this debate has gotten a bit less mean, however there is still much to debate.

Not worth my effort really!!

[Kesvirit]

quoth elninjo 07 16, 2006, 07:11: PM
There is no scientific research indicating a biological or genetic cause for homosexuality

This is a flat-out untruth, though I am inclined to believe it was said in the heat of battle, not borne of an intent to misinform and deceive. A Google Books Search of biological causes homosexuality brain structure yields an conservative estimate of 91 books addressing the biological basis of sexuality. Though the jury is still out on these and related matters, a lot of scientific research has been done on the biology and genetics of sexuality. You must back up your arguments with research as well as reason if you are to embark in such dangerous waters of debate.

Only once was a subject race given Flag Rank, and this was because the dying Klingon general on a planet being overrun by Kzinti forces had no more ethnic Klingon officers available. When Klingon forces relieved General Kobal's successful resistance, he retained his rank and was treated as a hero

A bit off-topic, but an interesting tale. Where can we read more on it?

Wonderful to see that this debate has gotten a bit less mean, however there is still much to debate.

Not worth my effort really!!

An unexpected sentiment, as you have invested much in it so far. What happened to

07 16, 2006, 07:11: PM    OMG..........I can see that this is gonna take some time......lol

I havent given up the fight just yet people

?  As qoSagh said, there is still much to debate.

[elninjo]

Ill tell you what happened.......I am cautioned for "assuming" something of other members when they assume first.
There is a distinct double standard here that I cannot hope to defend. Its OK for you people to be rude and obnoxious but its it not OK for me to do same.

I do want to debate this issue and I really dont give a hoot how you people speak to me. I have a very think skin and I am a very agressive person. I am most confortable being "aggressive" in these types of debates. So if we can agree that we (me included) dont "pull our punches"  then I am more than happy to continue. In fact would love it.

I cannot deal with double standards

Cheers

[Kehlan]

elninjo, I am not sure whcih of us that remark is aimed at but I have to say that I am not aware of any double standards here.  I can only hope that I have not caused any offence to you as that was not my intent.

I do not agree with your opinion on this subject but I do respect your right to hold that opinion.  This forum would be a very boring place if all of us agreed about everything.  I have stated my opinions on the subject under discussion and defended and explained my reasons for those opinions, nothing more.

by the way, my assertations with regard to biological causes was based on the following:  If women are genetically XX and men, XY, there are some people who end up being XXY.  (There is actually a child in my village who had the wrong sex recorded on her birth certificate due to this)  As I said in my previous post, I dont claim to be an expert on this area.

As I have said several times, my own opinion - and it is only an opinion, not based on any scientific certainty - is that Klingons are not nice and not tolerant - in fact we are an argumentative, bad tempered bunch and as we are divided on the subject, so do I think they would be also, only with a bit more violence involved.


You say that you are agressive and in truth, it shows in your posts.  You yourself have been very aggressive in the way you have voiced your opinions and I have come away with the feeling that you don't like people disagreeing with you on this subject. (that's not an accusation, just a feeling) I suspect that like me, you chose a Klingon persona for good reason (LOL)

I think it is an area in which we all have to agree to disagree and enjoy the debate rather than letting it get personal or getting offended or offensive.  As I said, I hope I have not been guilty of that myself.

Kehlan

[elninjo]

I was not refering to you in any way Kahlen and I dont have a problem with people disagreeing with me. To be honest I personally hate the idea of a gay Klingon but I can not see any logical or biological argument for it not to be. You people havent given me any cultural reason for non acceptance. I dont know a great deal about Klingon culture I admit. I was hoping that you would enlighten me but all some of you have done is analys every word I post to the point of spelling errors and the possible reasons for those spelling errors.  I dont take these thing personally and anything said in this thread will stay in this thread. These things only serve to cloud the real issues. Could it be that you are on "the back foot " on this. It appears so. But I know my words will prove me wrong. LOL

Cheers