Klingon homosexuality

[TVala]

Greetings,

The Day of Silence is coming up on April 21, 2004 and I will be taking a day long vow of silence in order to bring about awareness of the harrassment the GLBT community has to endure everyday of their lives.  

Taking this vow got me to wondering if there were any GLBT people in Klindom, or mentioned in any books, TV shows or movies, or if there was anything about Klingon GLBT's mentioned.  Are there?  What is the Klingon attitude towards GLBT's?  
 

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Personally I think if there are any GLBT Klingons, they must be made of very stern stuff...

Klindom I think will not be as harsh towards people for their sexual preferences as the Klingons themselves

Don't ask me why, I hope it will be discussed here in depth, but I think the tolerance for GLBT Klingons in Klingon Society is very low, to a point of shunning/discommunicating or even dismembering...

[qoSagh]

The short answer in my opinion is no. The long answer is as follows:

In many areas of this forum the great Klingon concept of nal komerex khesterex has been mentioned. This is best translated as that which does not grow withers and dies. I have often written of the qaptaQ central belief in the manifest destiny of the Klingon race, which is embodied in the continuous outward expansion of the sphere of imperial influence and control. These concepts taken together is the literal act of growing or being komerex. The Klingon empire, while not solely made up of warriors is warrior dominated. This is probably due to the massive resources needed by the military for this ongoing growth. The downside to a warrior culture is of course the casualty rate. While Klingons do not fear dying, most embrace it as a matter of fact, death is still an undeniable cultural fact. The way most cultures and most likely the Klingong empire combat that casualty rate is by increasing the birth rate, or to put it bluntly breeding like gob flies.

The family is also a central aspect of Klingon life. The role of the household and it's leaders is much greater in daily Klingon life than it is in most human cultures. The two known forms of Klingon marriage exemplify this. Of course bonding for life and the eventual breeding that comes with that increases the size of the family and thus the family's sphere of influence. Consortship, while usually a matter of arranged marriage and often the result of a business transaction serves to build and strengthen alliances between families. To again help those families grow and increase spheres of influence. The central fact that is shared by these two methods is still the act of being komerex.

While the purpose of sex can be debated long into the future, the fact of sex as an intrament of breeding is undeniable. From everything we know, Klingons reproduce through sex the same as humans do. Thus sex would balso be a central part of the act of being komerex. The act of growing so as not to wither and die would in a very real sense be about procreating. Since children grow up to become adults and adults can go off to war, having children not only increases the family's sphere of influence but increases the empire's natural resources. Few would deny that contributing to the empire's natural resources is honorable. From this we can extrapolate that failing to contribute to the empires natural resources is dishonorable.

So while not all sex leads to procreation, procreation still remains the goal in an imperial sense. Having and raising children is a way of honoring the empire. So while there has been nothing written on Klingon attitute of sex that may not procreate, I think that sex that will not procreate amd thus homosexuality would be a violation of nal komerex khesterex.
 

[tapez_sonof_chang]

i ll have to second the post above - totally what i feal.    

[tilk]

my thoughts. Great warriors of the passed, greeks, prefered men to women, and mostly slept with women to reproduce. I think as any great race, there is diversity. It may be something to touch upon in one of my future episodes. but locked away for months on end in a small BOP can do things to a klingon :blink:  

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Ok... So Here is the Thing... We Have NEVER seen anything remotely Suggesting Anything but Hetero-sexuality amongst Klingons in the Various Shows and Films... Why? Because Paramount is Pretty Cautious about How "Family" their Productions are Viewed as... And So We Do Not And Most Likely Can Not Have an Answer to this Question... (In Terms of Sanctioned "Official" Kinds of Answers)...

That Having Been Said, In Terms of Klindom I have Seen Overwhelmingly Tolerant and Accepting Examples of Klingon Fans themselves... And A Suprising Number of Those People who are Fairly Tolerant are also Fairly Conservative (Another Strange Trend amongst Klingon Fans I Have Known over the years)...

I Find qoSaghs' Answer to be A Compelling Example of Logic, but Klingons Just Are Not terribly Rooted in Logical Arguments, so In Terms of Pure Guess Work I'd Have to Say that Either it is Not an Important Enough Issue within Klingon Culture to Warrant Critical Debate, Thus we Have Not seen examples of Homo-sexuality Or Examples of The General Klingon Opinion About it Because it Just is Not that Interesting...

OR

Perhaps It Does Not Exist Openly (If at All)... alternately Klingons may Have a Cultural Equivolent of a Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy?

[SoplaHtaHwI']

That Having Been Said, In Terms of Klindom I have Seen Overwhelmingly Tolerant and Accepting Examples of Klingon Fans themselves... And A Suprising Number of Those People who are Fairly Tolerant are also Fairly Conservative (Another Strange Trend amongst Klingon Fans I Have Known over the years)...

Do not mistake Klingon Fans for Klingons.
A fan first and foremost is a human being, and thus should be tolerant to that which is "different".

I Find qoSaghs' Answer to be A Compelling Example of Logic, but Klingons Just Are Not terribly Rooted in Logical Arguments, so In Terms of Pure Guess Work I'd Have to Say that Either it is Not an Important Enough Issue within Klingon Culture to Warrant Critical Debate, Thus we Have Not seen examples of Homo-sexuality Or Examples of The General Klingon Opinion About it Because it Just is Not that Interesting...

OR

Perhaps It Does Not Exist Openly (If at All)... alternately Klingons may Have a Cultural Equivolent of a Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy?

It could indeed very well be that as long as the issue does not upset the "nal komerex"-rule (the normal reproductive pattern does not deteriorate), Klingon homosexuality might not become an issue.
Still I think that Klingons are not as leniant towards homosexuality as Klingon fans may be.  

[qoSagh]

Wow a debate, finally. I had thought this topic long forgotten.

I agree that we must not confuse human fans with Klingon warriors. I think however, that fandom in general is not a conservative lot, even if such a trend is present in Klingon fans. Fandom also, since it is a sub culture of sorts, thends to be accepting of other sub cultures.

The Klingon race is not a sub culture of anything or anyone. Being the top of the proverbial food chain allows Klingons to set whatever norm works for them, without regard to what works for others. I still stand by my earlier post that homosexuality is not part of the Klingon norm and goes against many of the basic concepts held near and dear to the Klingon heart.

As for the Greek analogy, I disagree that there is any connection. As I have said in other forum areas, I think that the Klingon military is probably the only place where male/female equality exists. Thus there would also be no "submarine syndrome" I refer anyone who thinks that Klingon vesels are loney in that regard to the IKS Gorkon books, which feature many on board relationships.

I have seen some examples in real life that may be relevant to this discussion. First is the fact that most sci-fi (including Star Trek) takes place in the future, and we as fans tend to want to future to be a better place based on our own moral/political/religious standards. Since any group that feels it is not where it should be in society wants to be more previlent, we have a tendancy to project that into our fandom. The concept of Trek is futuristic and in the future everyone is going to love everyone else and we will all be happy so since Klingons are from Trek, then Klingons will be happy and lover everyone else is nothing more than pathetic drivel. BE that as it may, for many the idea of the Klingons not being more liberal than modern humans is unthinkable. I would couter that with the fact that Klingons are not a futuristic race at all, they have been fairly consistantly portrayed as an old race that is set in thier ways. We should not expect them to live up to our projected future.

The other example I have, is more personal. There is also a climate of Political Correctness prevalent in fandom. For better or worse this sometimes gets forced down peoples throats. I remember a story from my convention security days. A Klingon fan was working the front gate at the convention and was asked by an attendee where the "gay Klingons" were. The particular Klingon fan in question is rarely out of character especially when working such a detail and replied bluntly that there are none, they are all dead. This was nothing but an off the cuff remark made very quickly and in my opinion purely in role play. The person asking the question went away without any protest, so I have no idea if the answer satisfied them or not. I also have no idea what the context of the original question was. This exchange however was overheard by a non-klingon fan who was the head of security at the time. After the con closed we all got quite a lecture on tolerance, and how if Klingons had any real honor they would be more tolerant. I was unlucky to have to sit thorugh that lecture.

Sometimes in our efforts to not offend anyone we end up being quite offensive to someone else in our own right.  

[Brian_Starr]

I wonder how feudal Japan, which I think is the closest thing to Klingdom, handled this issue.  I would bet that what they did would mirror the Klingons.  

I can not see male Klingons being homosexual.  It just doesn’t make sense.  On the other hand, I have seen brotherly love for one’s comrades encompass everything but sex.  In past civilizations, like the Greeks and Romans, men on campaign got so close due to shared hardships, that homosexual behavior was common.  So it is possible.  Even in Klingon society, you have dominance and submission.  I do not mean to imply dominance and submission are necessary to a homosexual relationship, but in most relationships it plays in to some degree.

I do believe that Klingons have a form of Polygamy, more than one wife/mistress.  Thus, I think lesbianism could exist in Klingon society.  Not the nasty kind most Americans think of, but a more sisterly relationship.  Polygamy is practiced in many strong societies on Earth today.  In the past, it was used to cement family ties and to cross cultural gaps.  So it is not hard to imagine a form of lesbianism in the Klingon culture.
 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

I Guess The Question Needs to Be Clarified to Some Degree, As to Why This Might Be Important One Way or the Other? I Can Not See this as Being a Big Deal Either way to Klingon Culture... (Again Keeping Klindom itself as a Separate Entity)...

[qoSagh]

As to the importance of the issue, I suppose it is no more or less important than anything we have tackled here. However the original post did ask the question, which was answered and debated. I am sorry that the original author has not returned to participate.

As controversial as this subject is, it has been one of the more interesting discussions and oddly enough one of the most civil, that I have participated in on these forums. Sometimes the subjects that we think will be of little importance turn out to be the springboard for the greatest of debates. I actually see a new subject bring up that comes from one of these replies.

[Kesvirit]

I am sorry that the original author has not returned to participate.

I, too, regret T'Vala's continued absence from our ranks and participation in out exchanges. Unfortunately she has had to leave us to battle the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

As controversial as this subject is, it has been one of the more interesting discussions and oddly enough one of the most civil, that I have participated in on these forums.

Indeed. I commend all who have participated in this thread on their calm words.

(Or perhaps their good judgement is in heeding T'Vala's implied warning. }}; )

So why do I continually find my hand reaching for my weapon, waiting for the mines to go off...?

[Klythe]

It is probable that if Homosexuality in Klingons exists, serves an entirely different role in society, and has in entirely different social significance or behaviour patterns.  

    It is true that Klingons would not tolerate 'sissyness' which is often associated with/attributed to terran male homosexuals in the post-industrial western culture.  Sissyness is an entirely seperate issue from homosexuality.  Sissyness is not a necessary result of homosexuality.

    The Spartans may have been among Terra's most dedicated warrior cultures, and from what little I understand, Homosexuality was the norm, not the exception.  Dubious sources have told me that homosexuality was involved so deeply in some Classical Era Greek societies that it permiated daily rituals. even down to the common greeting ritual.  I must admit I did not apply any effort to confirming or denying this.   Only to say I would think that the Spartans would not tend to be considered sissies by any standard I would find meaningful.

     

[qoSagh]

I think homosexuality and sissiness would have to be totally seperate to the Klingon mind set, even if both qualities existed in the same individual. My original theory was basically about breeding and racial survival, whic on a strictly biological level would not be effected by how much of a sissy someone was. The only effect that would have that I can see is in the natural selection of choosing a mate. However homosexuality would have a biological effect on survival.

That brings up an interesting idea though. If there was a Klingon sissy, and he did mannage to find a mate, would his sissiness be passed on to his children? We have no idea if such behavior is learned or environmental or genetic. If it is learned or environmental then it could be corrected and the sissiness would have even less effect on racial survival.

somehow I don't think that sissiness would even be a factor. Think about the other way we describe a sissy...effeminate, being like a female. While this can lead to being considered a sissy among humans, think about the Klingon women we have seen. Would not an effeminate Klingon be strong willed, violent, aggressive, overbearing, arrogant, ect. ?

 

[Abbot Nej vIt]

Curiously, I am Not Sure that the Term "Sissy" in our Culture (Contemporary Western Culture), IS equated as much to Feminine Behavior, (If the Women in my Life Acted that Way I Would Have Very Little Respect for them or Interest in Being Around them), as much as it refers to Weakness of Character, Inability to Be an Effective Leader or to Defend oneself... (Emotionally or Physically)...

American Culture in Particular is Very Homophobic, almost takes Pride in it's Generalized Homophobia... (To The Point Of Needing to Pass Laws about How People Look at and Define their Personal Relationships)... We also Characteristically (Again Generalization), Tend to Find That "Wimp" or "Sissy" Behavior, to be Abhorent... And Unfortunately I Think that it is simply "Easier" for most People to Combine these Types of Prejudice...

Although I am Sure that Individual Klingons Would Have Personal Opinions about any Socially Relevant Discussion we Could Bring Up, I Think that it needs to be Reiterized, that Klingon Culture Holds Strength and Self-dependance in very High regard... So Any "Sissy" or "Wimpy" Klingons (Regardless of possible Feminine Traits in Males), Would be Highly Ridiculed and Encouraged to Get Straightened out at a Very Early Age... Those unable to Comply probably would not Survive Long, or would Learn to Mask Qualities seen as Socially Unacceptable... Now although this does not directly Comment on the Idea of Homosexuality amongst Klingons, I Think that it does in Fact point out that if taken as Separate Issues (Homosexuality and "Wimp" factor), We are Much more Likely to see Interest in Social Behavior which has a Direct Effect on Personal Performance in ones Job or Position in Society rather than in the Personal Relationships of the Individual...

As Far as Breeding and Racial Survival Goes, Alien Archeologists might well look at Human Cultures as Unlikely to Practice Homosexuality because of how ridiculously Primitive and Frankly Prolific our Evolutionary Drive to Reproduce is... Yet Inspite of the Fear Mongoring of those who Take Other Peoples Life Styles so personally might be, Globally The Population is Exploding at unprecedanted rates... So if anything might threaten Racial Survival at this point it could be over Breeding...<Chuckle>... The Point Being that I am Not Sure that Sexuality and Breeding/ Racial Survival are Necessarily the Same...

And Yes it has been an Interesting Debate... Thank You All for Keeping it Intelligent and Rational... (Not that I would Expect Less from Solid Klingon Citizens...<Grin>...)

[qoSagh]

When I wrote of sissy being effeminate, I suppose I was thinking less of a female acting like a female and more of a male acting like a female. The mental image is one of children playing and one little boy saying to another "don't be such a girl".  I suppose both to a human and a Klingon it is less about being perceived as female than about being perceived as weak.

I do agree that weakness is either bred or taught out of Klingons. I do not think one can mask uindesirable traits. How do you pretenbd to be brave, or worse pretend to be honorable? One can not act right as a mask to acting wrong. As for being encouraged to get straightened out, I am thinking of a quote from Gunnery Sergeant Hartman that I can not write here in it's original form but the basic concept is "You had best un**** yourselves or I will do it for you". I think that must be what a Klingon kindergarten is like.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

When I wrote of sissy being effeminate, I suppose I was thinking less of a female acting like a female and more of a male acting like a female. The mental image is one of children playing and one little boy saying to another "don't be such a girl".  I suppose both to a human and a Klingon it is less about being perceived as female than about being perceived as weak.

I do agree that weakness is either bred or taught out of Klingons. I do not think one can mask uindesirable traits. How do you pretenbd to be brave, or worse pretend to be honorable? One can not act right as a mask to acting wrong. As for being encouraged to get straightened out, I am thinking of a quote from Gunnery Sergeant Hartman that I can not write here in it's original form but the basic concept is "You had best un**** yourselves or I will do it for you". I think that must be what a Klingon kindergarten is like.

I think that Klingon life is very short for those that do not want or can follow the Khomerex path.
As a bespectacled Hyooman I keep reminding myself that I probably would not have survived childhood... As one born with a "defect", I could possibly bring that back to the first month...

[qoSagh]

I am not sure that eyesight would be all that much of a modern problem to the Klingons. First, I see that good eyesight is of course desirable in battle, thus poor eyesight is undesirable, but we know the federation has a drug called retinox that can fix some type of eye ailments. I think it is fair enough to assume that the Klingons have the same of similar drugs. Plus being a battle liability, they likely would have felt compelled to fix this before the humans did, either by drugs or possibly some type of surgery. My theory has always been that glasses either don't exist or are rare, because of these factors.

[Kehlan]

Just returning to the "sissy" issue for a moment, "Diplomatic Implausibility" by Keith Decandido has a character in it that fits that description pretty well.  I've forgotten the character's name (and can't find the book on my shelves to check it) but the other Klingons refer to him as a Grishnar Cat and wonder among themselves why they have allowed him to live so long.  I think they concluded that his survival was due only to the fact that he was actually useful, even if very annoying.

[M_Sogha_KDar]

I for my part think that, as long as a Warrior does his (her) Duty to the empire, What does it matter wheter one is GLB or T, and as long as the other party is willing... Otherwise I don't think it's an issue as long as it doesn't get in the way of serving the Empire Fan and ficticious.


Sogh' a ' K' Dar tai-Veska

[SoplaHtaHwI']

I for my part think that, as long as a Warrior does his (her) Duty to the empire, What does it matter wheter one is GLB or T, and as long as the other party is willing... Otherwise I don't think it's an issue as long as it doesn't get in the way of serving the Empire Fan and ficticious.


Sogh' a ' K' Dar tai-Veska

I actually don't care, from a fan point of view...
I object to people telling me, in fact. I'll observe and deal with it. I don't tell anyone I'm hetero either (well, I do now 8-)
Big friggin deal. Sorry for those poor toes...

[Kehlan]

What does it matter wheter one is GLB or T, and as long as the other party is willing... Otherwise I don't think it's an issue as long as it doesn't get in the way of serving the Empire Fan and ficticious.

Well in real life of course it does not matter - in most cultures anyway.  However, the issue is how "real" klingons would react.
In our own modern society it is not actually that long since it was illegal to be gay and in the UK gay marriages - or civil partnerships as they are being called (another sign of limited acceptance), only became legal this year.  Hence, this is an issue that is very much in the headlines at the moment and as such is a fair subject for discussion.
For all that Klingons society is supposedly in the 24th century it is a very traditional society - and if a Klingon disapproves of something then that disapproval could get quite violent...
Certainly, if Klingon genetics work anything like ours, then there are bound to be at least some gay klingons (and I am not saying here that it is a competely genetic thing, its more complicated than that) just as there are gay humans and also animals.  That being the case, the question asked is not what do we as humans think of it, but how do Klingons view this?  And that is what is under discussion.
Like SoplaHtaHwI' I would have to say that as a human, I really don't care what sexuality somebody is,  but if I were really a klingon... hmm, I need to think about that one a bit more before committing Kehlan to a viewpoint.

[SoplaHtaHwI']

What does it matter wheter one is GLB or T, and as long as the other party is willing... Otherwise I don't think it's an issue as long as it doesn't get in the way of serving the Empire Fan and ficticious.

Like SoplaHtaHwI' I would have to say that as a human, I really don't care what sexuality somebody is,  but if I were really a klingon... hmm, I need to think about that one a bit more before committing Kehlan to a viewpoint.

I'm not sure how qa'pIn would see it... Interesting story-angle... I need to work the boy out a bit further anyway...

[elninjo]

Well I would personally say that gay Klingons most definitely would exist and be accepted by as a part of that culture.
Klingons are seen as "primitive, savage, and sexually animalistic with no moral boundaries. Homosexuality has existed in the animal kingdom from the beginning of time and will always be a facet of cultural existence. Its called diversity.
Its just plain logic that there would be gay Klingons. We didn’t see any gay characters (human or otherwise) in any of the Star Trek films with the exception of that 1 lesbian kiss between the symbionts. But they were hardly  “gay” characters. All that proves is that the scriptwriters were (oh dare I say it) homophobic. No!! No!! thats not right! They were being......ummm "conservative".

http://www.webpan.com/dsinclair/ds9.html

Cheers

[Klythe]

    I strongly disagree.  Klingons are far from being without moral boundaries.   In fact, if you say thier culture is based on honor, then you are saying that it is based on moral boundaries.  Klingons are sexually vigorous, but I don't see anything 'animalistic' about reciting poetry and throwing things.  And I should know animalistic, being a Furry.

    I'll agree that it's fairly clear that they would exist, but it is not clear how they would be treated.  Would they be open about it?   Would they need to be?   I'm still not sure.

    Elninjo, don't forget the individual from the androgenous culture that fell in love with Riker.   Eh.  I don't want to secondguess the scriptwriters, editors, or the network censors.

   

Just returning to the "sissy" issue for a moment, "Diplomatic Implausibility" by Keith Decandido has a character in it that fits that description pretty well.  I've forgotten the character's name (and can't find the book on my shelves to check it) but the other Klingons refer to him as a Grishnar Cat and wonder among themselves why they have allowed him to live so long.  I think they concluded that his survival was due only to the fact that he was actually useful, even if very annoying.

    I'd say "wimpy" or "wussy"...  I'm using sissy to mean a particularly kind of behaviour commonly associated with homosexuals.  He was a nerdy little runt, but wasn't exactly the type of sissy I am refering to.  Voll lacked the stereotypical lisping, limp wrists, and other outrageous behaviours and such that seem to form the stereotypical identity for homosexuals. But it is a valid datapoint.   Wimpy Voll was barely tolerated, even though he was in effect an engineering legend.  He was merely an amusement.  Not worth the trouble of killing.  Perhaps they expected that he would just die, clearly he had no chance of speading his genes to the next generation...  Somehow he managed not to provoke anyone enough to harm him and still managed to get enough food to sustain himself...