Gender, Hunting, Agriculture, "Ritual Gardening"..

[Kesvirit]

posted on 12-11-2002 at 11:38 AM

Gender, Hunting, Agriculture, "Ritual Gardening"... (Was: Klingon Table Manners)

This is a reply to a post in the Klingon Table Manners thread. However, neither the post nor the reply have anything to do with either table manners or the content of the Klingon Social Structure thread, so now that I finally have my g'daya machine back I'm posting it separately.

quoth weslipuqlod on 20-11-2002 at 20:08 Really Kesvirit, we are talking about Klingons here. You truly refuse to entertain the notion that Klingon Society is patriarchal.

Really, weslipuqlom, I do not. I just don't take it to the outrageous extremes that you do, and believe that there is a greater variation in Klingon culture than you chose to acknowlege.

You comment that "the Empire is a grim and harsh place to live", question whether a child from a neutral house would be safe as a stowaway, and speak of a society that comfortably uses interrogators yet chastise me for a belief that Klingon women are strong, capable individuals just not yet permitted complete equality except when justified special dispensation.

What I chastise you for is having such low regard for women that you disregard them altogether and view them only as tools to bear your sons ("I however need not concern myself with such as my mate has provided me with strong sons to carry my bloodline into the future.") A means to an end, something to be used. Otherwise they do not exist in your eyes. You refer only to male soldiers in your posts, ignoring all other aspects, residents, and occupations of the Empire, and have made cracks about being "PC" when I take a macrocultural approach to examining diversity within it. I seek out and try to analyze variation within the Empire while you seem determined to blind yourself to it, living in a solipsistic, cookie-cutter universe that consists exclusively of male (although apparently this need not be said) warriors in search of glorious victories, in which no one else need apply.

I also chastise you for claiming that women are not permitted complete equality except when justified special dispensation. Valkris was chosen over her older brother by her family to lead them; Azetbur was groomed by her father Gorkon to be his successor, and was a ruling member of the High Council in her own right before his death.

I suppose you could call Gowron's offering K'Ehleyr a seat on the Council for her assistance in getting Picard to speed up the Rite of Succession "special dispensation." I call it low-down, dishonorable dirty politics.

Societal values are the direct result of the conditions that govern life. The late Joseph Campbell, one of the Earth's foremost authorities on comparative mythology and religion stated, "Society is always patriarchal. Nature is always matrilineal." Strong distinctions are established between those societies subscribing to a hunter culture and those subscribing to a planter culture. Women are within dominate roles in those cultures focused around planting and harvesting activities. Within hunter cultures the male is dominate.

Joseph Campbell is full of it. He is to sociomythology what Desmond Morris is to anthropology -- a hack who puts forth his own opinions and values as fact without a shred of investigative research.

Khitomer was an agricultural community, and look at the economic and political disasters resulting from its destruction. Martok came from a farming family, yet was also one of the Empire's greatest leaders. Peneli was a fulcrum of Imperial politics -- and its possible fate -- as scientists worked there to improve grain strains to end a famine. Women, though influential in the Khitomer and Peneli crises, were hardly dominant over men.

Hunting may be a cultural ideal and fresh meat considered tastier than preserved plants, but you can't feed an Empire that way. Large-scale agricultural facilities are necessary to come up with the necessary protein and calories to run a fleet. Not to mention an Empire. I strongly suspect that the hunts you envision are restricted to ceremonial purposes and recreational events for the wealthy and leisure classes.

And you can't get by with hunting on those long haul assignments in space: it's not as if there are life-sustaining planets with edible animals willing to give good chase to be found whenever you get hungry or bored.

Look at what has been established for the Klingon culture...nature is not necessarily respected...

I never said that nature is necessarily respected. But it is necessary.

Klingons prefer ancient bladed weapons over modern disruptors. I have yet to see any evidence of ritual gardening.

So just because you don't see it means it doesn't exist? Do you believe in bacteria? How about radioactivity? Have you ever looked for any evidence of ritual gardening? Captain Amagh of the battlecruiser Ul'lud was known as a cultivator of and authority on fireblossoms, which kill off anything growing around them. I don't know how "ritualistic" his gardening practices were, but he took them very seriously.

And I can't help but think that those herbs that go into the brew use in the Tea Ceremony are tended to very, very carefully throughout the growth, storage, and preparation processes in order produce consistant potency. Too weak and all you get is a stomach ache; too strong and you're dead before you can enjoy it. The fugu fish of Klindom. If Klingon society is as ritualistic as you propose, I suspect that there are rituals involving the ingredients long before they make it to the ritual that is the Tea Ceremony.

- Kesvirit

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 12-15-2002 at 05:37 PM

I believe we are digressing from the purpose of these Forums, and I am just as responsible. Perhaps the reason more members prefer to remain spectators as opposed to becoming involved with some discussion threads is that you and I are so opinionated we intimidate them. Obviously not everyone involved with these Forums has continually explored the educational pursuits that you seem to have enjoyed. Based upon various statements some may perceive themselves unqualified to comment. Either that or we are just so entertaining to the rest of the membership that they do not want to disturb us.

As you have pointed out I subscribe to a "conservative canon concept of Klingon culture". You apparently subscribe to the culture outlined by John M. Ford and carried forth within the various incarnations of Star Trek novels. From your previous diatribes about Paramount and the series writers I get a distinct impression that you care nothing for the Klingon culture portrayed on screen. If not for the writers and their "sanitized, romanticised ideal of the bad-assed Viking marauder and an ersatz bushido", you and I would not be having this discussion and this forum would not exist.

As for my references to male warriors and my "crack" (one) about "pc writing" it was in reference to my attempt to equally reference both male and female pronouns in the same sentence. tlhIngan Hol does not have the gender distinctions of the English language. It should not be an expectation that posts be prefaced with a disclaimer of neutral language and the intention to include references to both feminine and masculine genders. Within the Klingon language, references to he or she do not exist , the two are equal. I do not blind myself to the inherent variation within Klingon culture. The reason for my presence within this Forum is to explore just that. Many of our discussions have us polarized based upon our primary references, for you the novels, for me the canon references and what actually hit the screen. I will concede that I am rigid in that I limit my extrapolations of Klingon culture from these sources.

Originally posted by Kesvirit I also chastise you for claiming that women are not permitted complete equality except when justified special dispensation. Valkris was chosen over her older brother by her family to lead them; Azetbur was groomed by her father Gorkon to be his successor, and was a ruling member of the High Council in her own right before his death.

I have no knowledge of any additional backstory for Valkris. As for Azetbur, I believe her ascension to rule the High Council was motivated strictly by the necessity of political climate at the time. No one else was as versed on Gorkon's initiatives and most likely no one else had the desire to take the lead or responsibility for such negotiations with the Federation. It was a very uncertain time for the Empire. As for Azetbur actually sitting on the High Council prior to the Khitomer Accords, I have difficulty believing Imperial politics would allow two persons from the same House overt controlling interests in government.

I suppose you could call Gowron's offering K'Ehleyr a seat on the Council for her assistance in getting Picard to speed up the Rite of Succession "special dispensation." I call it low-down, dishonorable dirty politics.

This was no consideration of special dispensation. It was exactly as you state. Gowron's offer of a seat on the Council to K'Ehleyr was nothing more than a political bribe and she appropriately recognized it as such. K'Ehleyr turned her back against the Empire, serving the Federation as a special emissary then a full ambassador. Gowron stupidly risked a gamble based upon a misassumption that K'Ehleyr was not as versed as she was regarding Klingons. He could not possibly have followed through with such a promise as it was later established that women cannot serve on the High Council.

Now, setting hatred of inconsistent writers aside, explore what has been presented thus far. Excepting Azetbur, we have not been given references to any other women either ruling or governing in Klingon politics. She was named Chancellor following the assassination of her father. I believe that she holds the distinction as the first female. A position has been established that women cannot sit on the High Council. There has to be an explanation for how that came to pass following Azetbur's reign.

Hunting may be a cultural ideal and fresh meat considered tastier than preserved plants, but you can't feed an Empire that way.

My references were to the evolution of Klingon society based upon the mythology of the hunter culture. Of course nature is necessary and one cannot live on meat alone. As technology progresses there must be adaptation to the environment. The Klingon culture evolved from the hunt. As populations began to grow and wild prey became limited, trade was enhanced and settlements more firmly established. Subsequently planting was explored more heavily. The hunts themselves then took on more importance, playing a pivotal role within the ritual and ceremony of Klingon society. Yet, agriculture born from a hunter culture does not destroy the psyche of the hunter. As you point out:

Women, though influential in the Khitomer and Peneli crises, were hardly dominant over men.

I suspect that there are rituals involving the ingredients long before they make it to the ritual that is the Tea Ceremony.

Compelling argument and I concede a very likely hypothesis. There would have to be a lot more ritual to the preparation of the tea ingredients. Especially when this ceremony is compared to just the candles that Dax was required to have for her welcoming ceremony. You have provided an example of ritual gardening yet this alone does not alter a culture evolved from hunter mythologies.
 

[Klythe]

posted on 12-17-2002 at 11:18 PM

I believe we are digressing from the purpose of these Forums, and I am just as responsible. Perhaps the reason more members prefer to remain spectators as opposed to becoming involved with some discussion threads is that you and I are so opinionated we intimidate them.

If they are so easily intimidated then why would we care what they say, even if they dared say it? I do not shy away from a battle of ideas, and I am pleased that you do not as well.

- weslipuqlod attributed to James Cambell: Within hunter cultures the male is dominate.

This is for humans. It is well know that human females are rarely the sexual aggressors even in theses mythic agrarian cultures(A real sociologist will show they are generally more egalitarian, but they are almost never considered matriarchal once studied in depth.) Our Females being sexually aggressive are fully capable of being agressive in other roles.

The way I see it, Klingon culture is not sexist or particularly insistant on patriachal rule, only Klingon biology gives males an advantage over females when it comes to warcrafts. And that is why you see more male warriors than females. As with positions of leadership, where physical strength may not actually be required by the job, but the confidence and stature that being a renouned warrior is needed to establish credibility. It is harder for females to do this, and therefore they are not often seen in leadership possitions. Not because of status in society, not because they are kept down by the klingon man, but because when it comes down to it, few are strong enough to compete against the strongest men. There is no need to look down upon them, those that can lead are able to, those that aren't, aren't.

There is no canonical evidence that you can point to that supports your view of Klingon societal represion of females. There is evidence of female warriors who achieve high positions through the strength of thier will and circumstances. And there is no canonical evidence of males being offended at taking orders of a female. In fact the some of novels do show a bit of sexism that the TV and film doesn't, so claiming Kesverit is wrong because he takes fandom into consideration is a non-starter. One who would make such a claim is unfit to do my laundry. (Sample of novel sexism.)

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 12-18-2002 at 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Klythe If they are so easily intimidated then why would we care what they say, even if they dared say it? I do not shy away from a battle of ideas, and I am pleased that you do not as well.

Well said. I appreciate your perspective into this ongoing debate.

There is no canonical evidence that you can point to that supports your view of Klingon societal represion of females.

I am interested to learn more details of your views surrounding special dispensation and the absence of females on the High Council.

And there is no canonical evidence of males being offended at taking orders of a female.

I never said there was. My views and beliefs are my extrapolations or interpretations of what I have seen and read from previously mentioned sources.

...so claiming Kesverit is wrong because he takes fandom into consideration is a non-starter.

Never have I claimed Kesvirit is wrong in those views posted. I have made arguments for my position and Kesvirit has replied in like manner. While we normally agree to disagree, we keep alive the debate. Absent a sharp betleH it is what is available to enrich the spirit.

[Klythe]

posted on 12-18-2002 at 05:11 AM

*Wonders what he's missing.* Azetbur did not seem to need 'special dispenstation', but Kaylhr did... Could it be that it has nothing to do with being female, rather it has to do that Kaylhr was not a even a citizen of the Empire at the time? She was a Federation citizen just like Worf. She might not even have had a House that would claim her. Sounds like a more than enough to require 'special dispensation' for...

There are currently no females on the High Council, as I explained before they are very rare, but not frowned upon. There have been before and there will be again. Nothing special about that.

To clarify. There is no canonical evidence of Klingon women being second class to males. There is uncanonical references in books. So the fact that Kesvirit comes form taking culture more from the books than the TV, and still refutes that notion, should tell you there is nothing to support your view on the the subordination of women in Klingon Society.

[TVala]

posted on 12-18-2002 at 05:23 PM

my cent worth

I know my opinion wasn't really asked for, but...I shall state it anyways. I think Kes and Wesli' (I can't spell it right so have abbreviated it) both are right.

In the early Star Trek, TOS, Klingon Society was more patriarchal. A female in a command position was unthinkable.

However, in the more recent Star Trek, women are holding first officer's and maybe even captain's ranks. I think that in the household, they are treated as equals. As far as being on the high council, I do not think women are allowed on the council because the Duras sisters had to operate through a nephew.

Just my personal opinion.

[Klythe]

posted on 12-19-2002 at 03:54 AM

If we would have to had asked for your opinion, we wouldn't have wanted it. Only opinions that are bold enough to be defended are worth listening to. To be a Klingon is to be bold, and unappologetic.

I would say that the Sisters of DuraS had to act through a nephew, because of the dishonor of DuraS and his father as well as thier own involvement has given them the reputation they deserved. Therefore no one would take them seriously. Certainly not after they started a civil war and lost... Why would you allow vanquised traitors a seat at your table, especially if it is the High Council table. A nephew is a distant enough relative that he deserved the opportunity that he recieved to show if he was honorable or not.

Although, overall, your idea does have merit. A relaxing of possible social taboos over the 200-300 years of contact with the Federation... There is nothing to contradict that, and a few things that go along with that... Very few... But it's good speculation none the less.

[Ambassador Lady K'Zin]

posted on 12-19-2002 at 01:04 PM

Play nice now!!

Originally posted by Klythe
If we would have to had asked for your opinion, we wouldn't have wanted it. Only opinions that are bold enough to be defended are worth listening to. To be a Klingon is to be bold, and unappologetic.

However, to be a member of this forum, one is to be polite and respectful of other's opinions.

Remember Klythe, we are all just "playing" at being Klingons, so I expect all our forum members (including you) to "play nice" while they are here... After all, that is not the best way to encourage our newer members to participate and post.
<descends from soapbox>
 

[Ambassador Lady K'Zin]

posted on 12-19-2002 at 01:19 PM

A few clarifications, while I'm at it...

Originally posted by Klythe
...so claiming Kesverit is wrong because he takes fandom into consideration is a non-starter.

Haruumph, has it ever occured to all of you that Kesvirit is not a male, but rather a female, such as myself?

Why is it that most of you seem to assume that all other members of this forum, are by default, male? Is it the fault of overwhelming testosterone levels, or just the macho tendencies of self-declared Klingon men...

Please don't continue to make assumptions such as this about other members... As founder of this forum and head of a matriarchal line, I have made it my mission to welcome Klingon females into all aspects of Klingon fannish society -- including this forum.

I expect tolerance, politeness and respect for fellow members on this forum, regardless of age, gender and/or affiliation. If you fall under the "macho male" category and have a problem with this, then perhaps this is not the place for you.
 

[TVala]

posted on 12-19-2002 at 05:44 PM

okay....

First, I worded my opinion as I did because I really do not want to offend anyone very badly as on of the last things I need is someone else on my back. I have stuck my neb into to many conversations and had it bitten off to not be wary of that.

Second, I would be the first to tell you that I have not watched very much of the original series, but I have watched a good deal of the Klingon episodes of TNG. That is where I get my info, that and the books of trek I have read.

THe one with females in command is TOS In Honor's Name, about when Gorkon first comes to power, and Klingon society under goes the metamorphasis into the TNG klingons, and The Brave and the Bold, Book two, where the first mate of the Gorkon is female.

[Klythe]

posted on 12-19-2002 at 10:07 PM

Down with English pronouns! Up with Klingon chuvmey and lojban gadri!

However, to be a member of this forum, one is to be polite and respectful of other's opinions.

You will see that I *did* respect her *opinion*, I only objected to the way she presented it. T'Vala should not feel as if she(?) must ask to present an opinion or apologise for sharing one. And that is precisely what my post said.

Weslip... to Kesvirit
Perhaps the reason more members prefer to remain spectators as opposed to becoming involved with some discussion threads is that you and I are so opinionated we intimidate them.

Klythe
If they are so easily intimidated then why would we care what they say, even if they dared say it? I do not shy away from a battle of ideas, and I am pleased that you do not as well.

I was merely extending this sentiment from earlier in the thread. There was nothing personal about her particular opinion intended. As I said, I thought it was a particularly good bit of speculation, if there was any societal limits on Klingon females then it would be much less by the later movies and TNG.

we are all just "playing" at being Klingons

You may be playing... For me, it is too late my mind has become too Klingon over the years. However, I do apologise to T'Vala and to you Ambasador, for any misunderstanding that have come from what I said.

G'Day't ambiguous English. I did not mean 'you' to be personally directed at T'Vala, but in a more general sense, as reflected by the first part of my first post in this thread. I suppose I couldn't convince you to let me post in Lojban or Tlhingan Hol? Lojban grammar is designed to eliminate these sorts of misnderstandings. Fortunately Thlingan Hol has different pronouns for plural 'you', and the pronouns aren't gender specific so that would have solved both of these specific problems, athough there are other ambiguities that Tlhingan Hol would not address. Amazing both problems boil down to pronouns and the context they are used it...

I will try to post more like a human playing a Klingon would, but I reget you see this as necessary.

Haruumph, has it ever occured to all of you that Kesvirit is not a male, but rather a female, such as myself?

And now I am being criticized for being a human. I thought it was previously established that the one was male, by the ones own admition, if this is not true I apologise for this mistake.

My TNG-era persona is named 'Aspera' and when I post using that name I am assumed to be female. I deal with it. I use the correct pronoun to refer to myself in the third party so others can know my correct gender.

It is engrained in Western Culture to assume unfamiliar names that end in a consonant are males and those that end in a vowel(except for 'o' and silent 'e') are female. When this custom is violated, for good reason as it is not present in the Empire, then there are no other indicators of gender. I will not appologise for this. If Kesverit is female, and she does not indicate it, I will not be ashamed of guessing, despite the political correctness.

If I'm incorrect, I am open to correction. If I'm wrong and not corrected, then the gender identity is obviously not a big issue to the one. And there is no reason why it must be so important what gender you happen to be compared to what we make it out to be.

Why is it that most of you seem to assume that all other members of this forum, are by default, male? Is it the fault of overwhelming testosterone levels, or just the macho tendencies of self-declared Klingon men...

I do not assume all board members are male. I assumed T'Vala is female, I still do not know for absolute certain as I don't remeber T'Vala mentioning it. Am I to ignore the subtle cues and create awkward constructions to avoid pronouns until the the person-in-question states what the person-in-question's gender is? I do hope not, it is very inconvient for all involved. I have explained the method I and most of the other board members (including females) use and most probably do not realise that they do it.

I am not challenging your authority, but here is a challenge for you:
Why did you assume I am male? I admit it is true, but I doubt before now, you have taken special interest in me enough to be concerned with being 100% certain what my gender is. You are a busy person after all, and there are a lot of users here(Due soley to your hard work).

I believe you assumed I am male for the exact reasons I specified by name ends with a consonant sound and not a vowel sound(You did assume a silent 'e' right?). Think about it, and tell me if this is the case or not. The alternative that you assumed I am male because I assumed Kesverit is male says things about yourself you may not care to admit. There are other alternatives though, you could assume I am male using statistics, there are more males in all of Klingdom than females...

I believe I have been tolerant and respectful by Klingon, American and Internet standards, and polite by Klingon standards(ie. direct and honest). And where I have not I am very much open to correction. Now, I know I must appear to be polite to human standards... I do not like it, but I will comply.

I do not consider myself to be macho. I do not boast or attempt to claim I am any more than I am. But I do promote Klingon culture and use of language as Paramount and Okrand describe. If this is not a board for Klingons, then I do not deserve to benefit from the all the hard work you have done here. I respect what you have accomplished. If you still think I am macho, then I will leave on good terms to not destroy the results of your struggles.

Because I will not stop being Klingon.

P.S. To get back on topic... The fact that so far we haven't discovered a pattern in Klingon names to predict if one is male or female also indicates that there is no social strata limiting Klingon Women the way Terrans did and many places still do.

Ends in a vowel:
Lursa
Mara
Grilka

Ends in a consonant:
valQIS
Be'etor
Azetbur

Hmmm... Maybe the European bias is reflected... I can't remember any Klingon males who's names end in a vowel...

PPS. I was wrong... It was Kesvirit asking Chuvat(who claimed to be male, an assertion I do not refute)... Mea Culpa.

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 12-21-2002 at 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Klythe
I would say that the Sisters of DuraS had to act through a nephew, because of the dishonor of DuraS and his father as well as thier own involvement has given them the reputation they deserved. Therefore no one would take them seriously. Certainly not after they started a civil war and lost... Why would you allow vanquised traitors a seat at your table, especially if it is the High Council table. A nephew is a distant enough relative that he deserved the opportunity that he recieved to show if he was honorable or not.

Toral, while the nephew of the Duras sisters, was the illegitimate son of Duras. If, as you say, the sisters could not compete for the High Council because of the dishonor inflicted upon them by their father and brother's traitorous acts, why would Duras' own son be any different?
 

[Klythe]

posted on 12-21-2002 at 05:02 AM

I forgot about that detail... Never the less the child did not instigate the civil war, and he was likely too young to participate. There was no blood on his hands... But you are right, the child should also have been barred...

[Kesvirit]

posted on 1-10-2003 at 08:06 AM

A Belated Response

weslipuqlod posted on 15-12-2002 at 09:37:

I believe we are digressing from the purpose of these Forums, and I am just as responsible.

I don't think we are digressing at all. The login page reads: "They (the forums) provide a centralized alternative online community covering discussions of ALL (caps not mine) topics related to Klingons - including general Klingon culture and society..." I took that to be a statement of purpose in establishing the forums. Isn't that what we are doing?

Obviously not everyone involved with these Forums has continually explored the educational pursuits that you seem to have enjoyed. Based upon various statements some may perceive themselves unqualified to comment.

I do enjoy educational pursuits, and have taken classes when circumstances have allowed. For me, learning is not a hobby, but a "way of life" and something for which I refuse to apologize. It is one of the reasons why I am here.

Most of what I bring to the forums comes via Google and a library card. As far as I am concerned the only qualifications required to comment are an interest in Klindom. As is evidenced by your reference to Campbell, nothing is keeping anyone from bringing in outside sources. I highly encourage those who haven't participated to jump on in. If you have questions, ask them! And if you don't see a thread that interests you, start one that does!

Either that or we are just so entertaining to the rest of the membership that they do not want to disturb us.

Entertaining, as in attending a game of klin zha kinta? Or going to the cockfights? Or perhaps "dueling banjos" would be a better metaphor. I can't pick to save my life, but I enjoy listening to those who can.

As you have pointed out I subscribe to a "conservative canon concept of Klingon culture". You apparently subscribe to the culture outlined by John M. Ford and carried forth within the various incarnations of Star Trek novels.

Not exactly. The Final Reflection, Ford's "definitive" work, is conceptually "thick" and written in a minimalist style in such a way as to leave many points open to interpretation by the reader. Taking this into consideration, I use compatable material from the TOS novels (and yes, even from canon) to fill in the blanks. From there I extrapolate to try to build a coherent and consistant model of Klingon culture.

And yes, many of the Trek novels do contradict each other. Almost as often as the "canon" material does -- whatever that consists of this week. Perhaps it would be easier to think of the novels as an anthology instead of a linear chronology of events.

From your previous diatribes about Paramount and the series writers I get a distinct impression that you care nothing for the Klingon culture portrayed on screen.

You should be qualifying that remark by stating which version of Klingon culture you think I care nothing for.

No, not nothing. Just very little. And it doesn't just hold for Klingons. I don't care for the arbitrary about-face taken with Romulan culture as part of The Great Revision, either. Those who produce the franchise seem bound and determined to advertise their ignorance in the way they create alien societies. Slapping on some nose putty and mouthing a few catch phrases over and over does not a viable or believable culture make.

If not for the writers and their "sanitized, romanticised ideal of the bad-assed Viking marauder and an ersatz bushido", you and I would not be having this discussion and this forum would not exist.

Oh, please. It is due to the boom in internet technology and the efforts of Lady K'Zin that this discussion and forum exist. Believe it or not, there was an active fan-run (as opposed to Paraborg-dictated) Klindom long before TNG and The Great Revision in the form of sci-fi clubs (both general and Trek-specific), cons, con circuits, zines, mailing lists, phone trees...

Not to mention the Klingon Diplomatic Corps, a member of which (legend has it) once subdued a crowd of rioting Humans at a con solely by taking off a boot to display his toe-socks. The shock of seeing a Klingon in toe-socks combined with the stench contained therein paralyzed the angry mob so that the vastly outnumbered Klingon contingent could contain the situation. If any survivors are reading this, would they please speak up and give a detailed, first-person account?

As for my references to male warriors and my "crack" (one) about "pc writing" it was in reference to my attempt to equally reference both male and female pronouns in the same sentence.

Hence the beauty of the phrase "the one". Not only is it non-gender specific, but when used properly has both a poetic elegance and grants a certain respect without the speaker having to yield ground. I wish that klingonaase had been more thoroughly developed. From what little I've seen of it in action, it seems to be both nuanced and economical.

tlhIngan Hol does not have the gender distinctions of the English language. It should not be an expectation that posts be prefaced with a disclaimer of neutral language and the intention to include references to both feminine and masculine genders. Within the Klingon language, references to he or she do not exist - the two are equal.

You pride yourself on your adherence to canon and knowlege of the Hol, yet conveniently ignore the fact that the word for "female" and the suffix of negation (be') are one and the same. Both editions of TKD list words for "sir", "lord", and "my lord" (qaH; jaw, joH; joHwI'), yet contain no female equivalents to these positions/forms of address. Apparently neither you nor Okrand have any use for females in anything but the lowest echelons of the military or civilian life.

I also find it disconcerting that the word "chaj", used only between close female friends, is the suffix indicating the plural posessive, while the morphemes "ma-", the prefix for "we", and "qoch", meaning "partner" that form the male-to-male equivalent ("maqoch") mean "inclusive partner". Females plural are linguistically collectively owned by -- guess who? -- males, while linguistically "all men are created equal".

That this has not set off alarms throughout both the Alpha and Beta Quadrants by now never ceases to both amaze and disturb me. I would think that those who argue that a culture's values are reflected in its language would be passingly familiar with the Sapir-Wharf Hypothesis or the works of Lakoff and Johnson.

Even if your assertion that male and female are treated as equals by the Klingon language were valid, why do you take this position with the language and not with any other aspect of Klingon culture?

I do not blind myself to the inherent variation within Klingon culture. The reason for my presence within this Forum is to explore just that. Many of our discussions have us polarized based upon our primary references, for you the novels, for me the canon references and what actually hit the screen. I will concede that I am rigid in that I limit my extrapolations of Klingon culture from these sources.

Originally posted by Kesvirit: ...Valkris was chosen over her older brother by her family to lead them...

Originally posted by weslipuqlod: I have no knowledge of any additional backstory for Valkris.

As per my remark on ritual gardening, have you looked for any? A Klingon does not meekly wait to be handed something, but goes out to seek it.

You have claimed before that you adhere to "the canon references and what actually hit the screen." This and "conced(ing) that I am rigid in that I limit my extrapolations of Klingon culture from these sources" are not the actions of one who seeks to explore the variation inherent in Klingon culture.

As for Azetbur actually sitting on the High Council prior to the Khitomer Accords, I have difficulty believing Imperial politics would allow two persons from the same House overt controlling interests in government.

She did and it did. I refer you to the novelizations of ST3 and ST6, respectively. This is one reason I enjoy the novels. They incorporate and build upon the characters' backgrounds in such as way as to give much more depth to the story shown on screen. The one exception that comes to mind, and it's a big one, are the Blish novelizations of the TOS episodes. Even the most die-hard TOS fans I've discussed it with think that they are truly putrid and wonder how Blish got the job.

Gowron's offer of a seat on the Council to K'Ehleyr was nothing more than a political bribe and she appropriately recognized it as such... He could not possibly have followed through with such a promise as it was later established that women cannot serve on the High Council.

Established how? By whom? One of the reasons I hold TIIC in general comtempt is that their total lack of continuity and consistancy is a real insult to the fans who made them. I keep finding myself thinking, "But that's not how it worked last week..."

... explore what has been presented thus far. Excepting Azetbur, we have not been given references to any other women either ruling or governing in Klingon politics. She was named Chancellor following the assassination of her father. I believe that she holds the distinction as the first female. A position has been established that women cannot sit on the High Council. There has to be an explanation for how that came to pass following Azetbur's reign.

Given the screentime and pomp-and-circumstance granted onscreen to rather trivial events in Imperial history and politics, doesn't it seem odd that such a major change in governmental structure and policy has been ignored altogether? You are willing to take as gospel some phantom explanation that has never "hit the screen".

I invite you to explore what has been presented thus far. In Enterprise: The First Adventure the ruler of the Empire is an ailing Empress, kept alive and manipulated by a behind-the-throne cabal. The Starless World features Princess Kyanna as niece to the Emporer and heir to the throne.

Originally posted by Kesvirit Hunting may be a cultural ideal and fresh meat considered tastier than preserved plants, but you can't feed an Empire that way.

Originally posted by welipuqlod My references were to the evolution of Klingon society based upon the mythology of the hunter culture... agriculture born from a hunter culture does not destroy the psyche of the hunter.

There is no one single "mythology of the hunter culture" any more than there is a culture that is hunting-exclusive. There will always be some form of agriculture practiced, even if it is opportunistic, migratory, or involves scavenging.

Originally posted by welipuqlod You have provided an example of ritual gardening yet this alone does not alter a culture evolved from hunter mythologies.

No less than your one example of ritual hunting, which I am not sure qualifies as canon because JDax didn't complete the ritual. She cheated, forgoing the hunting-and-slaughter and getting pre-made candles. That is what I call "dishonorable" (a phrase I hear misapplied so often that I am coming to despise it).

- Kesvirit
 

[weslipuqlod]

posted on 1-12-2003 at 06:59 PM

My comments regarding digression are in reference to drawing discussions into personal debates rather than debate for sake of viewpoint and perspective. I spoke with Kesvirit in a U2U and Lady K'Zin also adequately addressed this issue in open forum so I feel no need to rehash it here.

I am attacked because I have taken a position that the Klingon Empire, as it has been presented, is a patriarchal, male dominated society where females, although equal in many aspects, require special dispensation in others.

(Moderator's note: The rest of this post and this thread were eaten by hungry spiderbots.)

[qoSagh]

Wow, what a discussion.

In a previous post it was stated that Klingon females had equality in the household but not in the military. I propose that it is exactly the oposite. First I have to say that like it or not, Klingon culture is derived from several sources, Paramount and whatever this weeks "cannon" is, FASA and RPG supliments, Fandom in general (specifically clubs like KDC, KAG, KLAW ect.), the novels (Final Reflection, Pawns & Symbols, IKV Gorkon Series), and probably a few others that I am not listing.

As for fandom being an acceptible source, remember that fans were working towards discovering Klingon culture long before Paramount decided to sieze the cash cow and throw us a few Klingon bones. I think that at a minimum allows fandom to be the co-arbiter of Klingon culture.

Now back to the women. In fandom we have certainly met strong Klingon Females. The first club I joined was at one time presided over by an Emperess, at other times an Emperor. One of the most prominant Klingon leaders I met in those days was a female Admiral who was chief of logistics for her club. Now from the days of TOS we have seen Klingon women in military roles (Mara was a Science Officer as wellas the Captain's Wife) who knows if Kang made his Wife his Science Officer or if he married his Science Officer. In TNG & DS9 we have continued to see female warriors on various ships. I am sure that military rank is done by ability in general and not by gender. Now from what we have seen Klingon males are larger and stronger so they very likely dominate the military but by no means is it exclusive. We have seen females at least as high as First Officer, so the idea of a female Klingon Captain is not impossible, by any means.

But outside of the military, we see Grilka, who risks loosing her house if she desn't marry. Martok's wife is almost comical in her attempts to be "the power behind the power". When Picard is serving as Arbiter, we see that even though the Duras sisters are extremely powerful, a male child is a more appropriate candidate for a council seat than either of them. The question of dishonor is irrelevant because all three of them are equally dishonored. When Picard rules against Toral, it is because he has no battle record, and is not an adult. However that effectively stops the legal challenge, not transfering it to either sister. That starts the civil war. It is logical to assume that if they had won, Toral would have been placed as chancellor with his Aunts pulling the strings. I am sure that would have lead to a personal challenge and he likely would not have finished his first year as chancellor. Klingon culture is old enough that there have been changes, and I am sure that there are Matriarchical houses, but Duras is evidently not one of them.

tlhIngan Hol does have gender specifics, but not in forms of address. Look at the verb to Marry, there are two of them one for the male and one for the female. This sugests that the act of marriage is different for the male and female, although what those differences entail is unknown.

As for Gowron offering a seat on the council to a female as a political move I think it certainly was. One she could not have taken unless she was a fool. Imagine this scenario, The Chancellor wants to rid himself of a troublesomly dominant female enemy, He offers her a seat on the council. He knows that this will likely not be accepted by the majority of the council, and that one of them is likely to kill her. This allows him to have his enemy killed and still appear to be honoring her. Depending on who does the Killing it may allow him to act against another rival faction in the council under the mask of avenging the death of one he appointed to high office. Therefore it is far better to stay as am Ambasador then to take a volitile council seat which may be fatal and is surely not motivated by admiration of your skills.

In the Military we have seen little evidence of inequality, but in the non military we have seen numerous examples of a patriarchy. This makes sense to me because, we can assume that Klingons developed a patriarchy early on in thier culture, but as they became a modern empire, had to adapt to a skill based military. The society as a whole has not changed the way the military has. However a prominant female military officer would probably be able to break off and form her own house if not become ruller of and existing house. We have seen this in fandom. Why could Grilka not do this, porbably because Grilk lacked the military record which would be the only modification possible.

I also thinkg that these ideas might be slightly different in various sub cultures within the Empire. Remember in Pawns & Symbold where a leader is replaced with his sister's son. Women had a very important part of that culture but still not direct leadership. I am not sure why some positions seem to be hereditary and others appointed/elected but that is for another topic.

qoSagh qlIStIy
meycha of the qaptaQ
Prothonotary of the Desert Rite

 

[SoplaHtaHwI']

Klythe: To be a Klingon is to be bold, and unappologetic.

I've tried to make that point earlier to Kapact in my introduction (recently moved to the entrance hall)!

For the rest, I am sorry I did not notice this thread earlier... Now I am impressed and aw-struck by the shear size of the thread.

Ambassador Lady K'Zin: Haruumph, has it ever occured to all of you that Kesvirit is not a male, but rather a female, such as myself?

Honesty binds me to say it had not sofar as it has not entered my mind to think about gender other than Your Eminence being clearly female.
I for one do not put gender on a person's text until I see clear evidence, or indeed a mere hint of this gender.