Disposal of the Dead

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-3-2002 at 06:58 AM

Disposal of the Dead

Bring out yer dead...*clang*
(Sorry for the gratuitous Monty Python reference...)

Klythe wrote an interesting post in the targh thread about the disposal of the dead, stating that a corpse is just an empty shell to be disposed of, and then goes on to propose a taboo against eating the corpses of people (as defined by the language-usung "-pu" plural.)

Under ideal conditions, how are corpses disposed of? Are usable parts harvested for medical purposes? Planetside, is the body dumped outside in some sort of designated area, far enough to keep scavengers away from the settlement? Shipboard, are bodies ejected into space? (Imagine, many years later, running into a vacuum-dried relative you?ve never met...)

FWIW, I there?s a fic in which a ship was faced with huge casualties and overwhelming damages. The remaining medic asks the CO what to do with the stack of bodies piling up in Sickbay. She told him, if there was time, to take tissue samples to confirm the identity of the dead, remove and label their personal effects to be returned to their families if they made it back, and to "dismantle" the bodies and stuff them down the recycling chutes. The CO was thinking that they were desperate for raw materials for the replicators and that nothing should go to waste, but the greenhorn medic blanched at the thought of recycled crewmembers turning up in his rations.

Disturbing to some, but practical to the Klingon mindset.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 7-4-2002 at 04:58 AM

From what I've seen klingons (expecially ship crews) rarely avail themselves of extravagant luxuries as replicators. Sure the elite and the old might use hem, but most have little ned for them when we perfer to seek our food elsewhere. The simplest way to dispose of an unwanted body is to evaporate it with a disruptor, although spacing them is rather inexpensive as well if you are aboard a starship. Hmmm... Farmers and other terestial deaths are another topic... We haven't seen anything that resembles a 'gaea' concept or 'earth' worship... So it's more of a pragmatic decision as to how to dispose of the body, disintigration cremation and burial all sound like resonable solutions. Only my guess is that burial would involve treating the body with decomposers that would actually break down the bones as well, and omitting the unnecessary wooden box.

I'm sure by know we know more than enough about out own bodies, so only alien bodies would be sent to the Thought Masters of Medicine for disection and analysis. As far as other medical needs, redundant organs really keep the demand for transplants down, even then, the Federation can regenerate organs, our medical technology probably can as well...

This is all conjecture. Every last bit of it. Feel free to offer counter-conjecture.

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-4-2002 at 07:34 AM

Disposing of the Dead

Just because we haven't seen any examples of gaea-type spirituality doesn't mean that they're not out there -- it's a big Empire. But unless you're trying to dispose of the evidence of a murder or something disintegrator via disruptor seems like a waste of both re-usable materials and battery power that might be needed later. In the example I cited I liked the CO's solution. The ship was badly damaged and they didn't have enough spare parts to remain spaceworthy. Her ruthless pragmatism was a nice contrast to the medic's distress at having to cut up his dead friends to make them fit into the recycling chutes and risk having their remains turn up in his dinner.

In permanent settlements it would make sense to me to grind the bodies into fertilizer for the crops, as is done with the less edible parts of dead domesticated animals in corporate farming on Earth. (Mad cow disease, anyone?) But that's just a guess. Do you think they would go so far as to feed the dead bodies to the livestock, if after all a dead body is only a shell to be disposed of?

If you're going with burial, I like the idea of some sort of chemical decomposition accelerant. Gets rid of the garbage more quickly.

When I mentioned harvesting bodies for medical parts I wasn't thinking whole organs so much as specialized seed cells that can't be cloned, as well as things like joint complexes and neural material that don't come with back-up systems and can't repair themselves. Of course, by then, who knows what medical technology may exist. But these seem like ways to continue to serve the Empire after one's death, ensuring everyone a little bit of immortality.

These, too, are just flying guesses on my part. Different Houses, different worlds, and different towns would have different ways. I suppose any answer one could rationalize would do just fine.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 7-5-2002 at 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Kesvirit
Just because we haven't seen any examples of gaea-type spirituality doesn't mean that they're not out there -- it's a big Empire. But unless you're trying to dispose of the evidence of a murder or something disintegrator via disruptor seems like a waste of both re-usable materials and battery power that might be needed later. In the example I cited I liked the CO's solution. The ship was badly damaged and they didn't have enough spare parts to remain spaceworthy. Her ruthless pragmatism was a nice contrast to the medic's distress at having to cut up his dead friends to make them fit into the recycling chutes and risk having their remains turn up in his dinner.

"we killed our gods", kind of implies a lot less willing to accept mysticism, and the belief of the primacy of strength, boldness, and battle, also makes accepting a super natural deity an unlikely aspect to be found in Klingon Culture.

Disruptor energy is farly cheap, you can probably vaporize a hundred Feddies before having to recharge your weapon. It's cheaper than replicating matter, which is why we see so few replicators aboard Klingon ships. It's a luxury few care for, as it makes us soft, like the feddies.... If we need something, we find who has it, and take it from them!

In permanent settlements it would make sense to me to grind the bodies into fertilizer for the crops, as is done with the less edible parts of dead domesticated animals in corporate farming on Earth. (Mad cow disease, anyone?) But that's just a guess. Do you think they would go so far as to feed the dead bodies to the livestock, if after all a dead body is only a shell to be disposed of?

If you're going with burial, I like the idea of some sort of chemical decomposition accelerant. Gets rid of the garbage more quickly.

When I mentioned harvesting bodies for medical parts I wasn't thinking whole organs so much as specialized seed cells that can't be cloned, as well as things like joint complexes and neural material that don't come with back-up systems and can't repair themselves. Of course, by then, who knows what medical technology may exist. But these seem like ways to continue to serve the Empire after one's death, ensuring everyone a little bit of immortality.

These, too, are just flying guesses on my part. Different Houses, different worlds, and different towns would have different ways. I suppose any answer one could rationalize would do just fine.

- Kesvirit

I suppose... I am not a farmer, those food warriors would know better than I what is usable and waht isn't.

Uh, I thought even the nerves had back-ups, in "Broken Bow"
As far as immortality goes, I perfer to stick to the old beliefs, when an honorable warrior dies, he continues his service in "The Black Fleet", where he kills his foes a thousand times, laughing. I don't know if this is compatible with the new StoVoKor/gre''thor afterlife set or not, but it is how my clan lives. Again, we do not think that once you die you have any association to your former mortal coil, so I'm not sure if that motive is valid... But, anything could be valid while we speculate...

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-6-2002 at 05:34 AM

Back-up Nerves

Food warrior? Never heard that one before. It sounds like someone who fights food.

?Broken Bow?? B(eavis)&B(utthead)? Ach! Ptuii!
(Ah, I feel so cleansed...)

As for what I said about neural material not having back-up systems and being unable to repair itself, a cognative scienctist explained to me this way. There are a lot of redundant pathways within the brain; otherwise people wouldn?t be able to recover from head injuries. The tricky part comes in terms of re-routing and repair occurs where the nerves merge with the brain. Even if you?ve got extras, the dendrites (?) would have to be individually hooked up to the appropriate part of the brain. It?s not like a junction box where you can flick a switch and change circuits if one blows. At best it would be delicate surgical work and I think the technology is many years down the road.

My information is a few years old, though. Perhaps Chuzat could clarify things when s/he next comes through?

I, too, like the idea of the Black Fleet. An eternity of victorious battle with none of the real-life drawbacks...

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 7-9-2002 at 10:47 PM

Well, there are all sorts of canonical bit of information that defy modern science. I could argue against Warp Drive, Tractor Beams and the whole lot...

But Dr. Phlox did say, Klang had redundant neral functions, unless there is evidence to the contrary... Not that I like canon straight jackets...
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-10-2002 at 02:32 AM

Redundant Neural Functions

There's all sorts of "established canon" that's pure bunko, period, but others have picked it apart much better than I ever could so I'll save you the agony. (If you're feeling particularly macochistic, I recommend a session with a pain stick followed by a half an hour of network news.)

The phrase "neural functions" covers an awful lot of territory. The more inclusive the claim, the more likely you are to screw it up. For the nth time I find myself wishing that TIIC kept scientists as well as market analysts on the payroll.

But enough of my grousing. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

- Kesvirit
 

[qurgh]

posted on 7-10-2002 at 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Klythe
As far as immortality goes, I perfer to stick to the old beliefs, when an honorable warrior dies, he continues his service in "The Black Fleet", where he kills his foes a thousand times, laughing. I don't know if this is compatible with the new StoVoKor/gre''thor afterlife set or not, but it is how my clan lives

I belive that the Black Fleet is in Sto-vo-kor, and is headed by Kahless. Only honored warriors go to Sto-vo-kor to serve in the black fleet. The dishonoured go to Gre'thor where they can fight (and beat) the Feklhr in order to get out.

As for dead bodies, the few refrences we have from the show (Koloth saying in reply to the Dr.'s question, "It is just an empty shell now, treat it as such.") seem to suggest that it is treated like any other waste matter. Most likely stripped of it clothes and dumped where ever waste is dumped.

So, my suggestion is that Klingons do with their dead bodies exactly the same thing they do with all their other waste materials. What that is, on the other hand, I don't know, but I would guess that it would depend on the place and situtation.
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-17-2002 at 08:39 AM

Scavenging Off of the Dead

Originally posted by qurgh The dishonoured go to Gre'thor where they can fight (and beat) the Feklhr in order to get out.

... Most likely [the body is] stripped of it clothes and dumped where ever waste is dumped.

A few questions:

1. If one defeats Feklhr, is one's honor and therefore that of one's family restored?
2. Do you really think they would go to the bother of stripping a body of its clothing before disposing of it, especially if the individual died in combat/by fighting, as all "good" Klingons should? Depending on the damage to the body I would think that the clothing would be relatively useless (damaged, bloody, etc), not to mention that it would probably have to be cut off. (I got to help undress a corpse once. It's harder than it looks.) Especially if the individual had been dead for any length of time, I wouldn't think they'd want the clothing back...

I can see stripping it of useful items, though -- belt, boots, weapons, jewelry, etc, either to keep them in the family (heirlooms have to get started somehow) or as a trophy/souvenier/prize of a vanquished foe.

- Kesvirit
 

[Chuzat]

posted on 7-19-2002 at 05:39 AM

Redundant neural pathways, hmmm...
I suppose I'll bring a little medical background to the discussion (when it comes to neurology however, it will be very little).
The human brain is capable of rerouting and relearning tasks that have been lost due to brain damage, as is evidenced by most people knowing someone who lost their ability to speak following a stroke, only to regain it after sufficient "retraining". Nerves are capable of regrowing to return sensation to body parts that have been reattached. I won't bore y'all with the physiology responsible for that, but it's an interesting bit of chemotaxis and self-repair.
I've even read several case studies that showed spinal nerves regenerating and restoring function to formerly paralyzed limbs. But how much is "redundant" and how much is simply regrowth?
The Klingon physiology is known for its redundant vital organs (I suppose it makes for a better warrior), so having some redundant neural pathways would not be that farfetched, and they could even be useful in battle, keeping the warrior conscious following a blow to the head that would have most of us on the floor.
But nothing is infallible, or indestructible obviously, as Klingons are not immortal.
But I wander from the topic. I'll just say that a redundant neural network is a viable theory for the Klingon brain, the physiology is irrelevent at this point.
And just for the record, I'm a he.

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-19-2002 at 08:50 AM

Redundant Neural Pathways

Originally posted by Chuzat
The human brain is capable of rerouting and relearning tasks that have been lost due to brain damage, as is evidenced by most people knowing someone who lost their ability to speak following a stroke, only to regain it after sufficient "retraining". Nerves are capable of regrowing to return sensation to body parts that have been reattached... But how much is "redundant" and how much is simply regrowth?

That's what I was trying to get at earlier. I think in trying to be brief I was too brief.

The Klingon physiology is known for its redundant vital organs (I suppose it makes for a better warrior), so having some redundant neural pathways would not be that farfetched,...

The brain is an organ, but the nerves that connect it to other organs are not. Does this reduce to a case of semantics?

I'll just say that a redundant neural network is a viable theory for the Klingon brain, the physiology is irrelevent at this point.

Never! I'd love to hear as much detail as you want to go into.

And just for the record, I'm a he.

No offense intended; I just find it doesn't do to assume. I get assumed a lot, and have to wonder what I possibly could have written to get assumed on. Or something like that. Forgive my syntax, it's late...

Thanks for the biological perspective. You know, you may regret copping to your human persona's medical studies, especially when the issue of hybrid/fusion genetics comes up.

- Kesvirit

[Klythe]

posted on 7-22-2002 at 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Chuzat And just for the record, I'm a he.

Originally posted by Kesvirit No offense intended; I just find it doesn't do to assume.

I just use the old klingonaase "the one" when I do not know the gender of the one. Perhaps it sounds too Vulcany. But I will hold onto the old traditions while I still live.

Chuzat I'll just say that a redundant neural network is a viable theory for the Klingon brain, the physiology is irrelevent at this point.

Kesvirit Never! I'd love to hear as much detail as you want to go into.

It's not like there is anything else happening at the moment.. }}:-D

Speaking of the old fandom and visual canon, I think it is unfortunate that Paramont designed the Klingon bridge lighting and consoles to be Red on Black. One of the more interesting physological differences between Klingons and Humans in the novels was the Klingon visual range which went from Orange to Violet and into the UV spectrum with two colors named amarklor and kalish... This is a lot more interesting than the lavender blood seen in ST6:TUC (which hasn't been used consistantly, I might add)

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-22-2002 at 10:55 AM

Kickin' It, Old School

Originally posted by Klythe
I just use the old klingonaase "the one" when I do not know the gender of the one. Perhaps it sounds too Vulcany. But I will hold onto the old traditions while I still live.

Speaking of the old fandom and visual canon, I think it is unfortunate that Paramont designed the Klingon bridge lighting and consoles to be Red on Black. One of the more interesting physological differences between Klingons and Humans in the novels was the Klingon visual range which went from Orange to Violet and into the UV spectrum with two colors named amarklor and kalish... This is a lot more interesting than the lavender blood seen in ST6:TUC (which hasn't been used consistantly, I might add)

Finally, a fellow follower of the Old School. (Am I the only one who wants to send a hunting party after Berman?) I myself have been working on a plant called the "amarklor thornpod". It's always been one of my favorite colors.

I have a hard time getting my mind around the exact use of "the one". Is this phrase reserved primarily for more addressing someone in formal occasions, or is it a catchall or shortcut for when you don't know the individual's rank and or gender?

As for the blood colors, my hypothesis is this: You've got two catagories of Klingon, Imperials and fusions. If pure Imperials have lavender to magenta colored blood, the blood color of a fusion would be some degree of variation on the subtractive color mixing of the blood color of the Imperial and the fusion species. Thus an even Imperial/Romulan fusion would have olive to brown colored blood. As Human fusions were absorbed into Imperial lines somewhere between ST6 and TNG, it would follow that varying blood color would reflect the varying degrees of Imperial and Human ancestry, and not be as consistant as red-blooded Humans or green-blooded Vulcans.

It's a big empire gained by conquest. Who knows what sorts of defeated peoples were absorbed into a very diverse gene pool?

Remember in TFR, where it was said that Gelly had a smooth forehead and very dark blood? Krenn had speculated as to her other parent species, thinking Romulan at one point and Orion at another. Both species have greenish blood, which when mixed with Imperial or Human fusion material would yield something in the in the dark-and-brown range. Towards the end McCoy the Elder was able to give her the karyotype that her superiors kept from her, but we (the readers) never found out what it was.

FWIW (for what it's worth), I've got a fictive who is frequently described as a "failed fusion". Failed as in too different because the Thought Masters who were experimenting to get different suites of features out of their "projects" put bits of the genomes of too many disparate species into the mix. The resulting individual shouldn't have survived at all, but was both fortunate and cursed to get an extreme dose of hybrid vigor.

- Kesvirit
 

[Chuzat]

posted on 7-25-2002 at 03:34 AM

And just for the record, I'm a he.

No offense intended; I just find it doesn't do to assume.

Looks like I'm going to have to learn this BB code stuff.
But anyway, no offense taken, just wanted to clarify the question for our studio audience.
And back to the neuro topic (I'm not going to try to quote anything right now, so bear with me) an idea occurred to me that this redundency could occur within the brain, by sending out duplicate neurons to the vital areas. So much of the brain, the human one anyway, isn't directly used that it could be duplicated in some areas, almost like partitioning a hard drive and using part of it for back-up.
And parts of the nervous system could develop into an organ or organs as extensions of the brain. After all, the skin is an organ and look how much area it covers.
Now as for the color of blood in hybrids: human blood is red because the metal in the hemoglobin in Iron, and Vulcans are green because the Iron is replaced with Copper. A true hybrid would have an Iron/Copper based hemoglobin because the blending is more at the genetic level. A Vulcan/Human would actually have both types of blood since half the genes are Human and half Vulcan, at least I think that's what would happen, unless one species had dominance regarding blood type. Does anybody know what metal is in Klingon hemoglobin?
So I guess that leaves us 4 possibilities for the color of mixed species blood, but I really don't care what color is covering the ground after my enemy has been reduced to a BUM (Bloody Unrecognizeable Mess).    

[Kesvirit]

posted on 7-25-2002 at 08:44 AM

Thread Re-Route

I wrote a three page response to Chuzat's post, but it had nothing to do with the disposal of the dead. So I edited it down, broke it up into pieces and moved them to what I hope will be a more appropriate home under Klingon Biology in the "Klingon Sciences" section. I hope you'll follow them there.

- Kesvirit
 

[Taj]

posted on 8-11-2002 at 07:30 AM

forgive my ignorance, but who are the Thought Masters of Medicine? I have seen them mentioned twice, i think, but have not heard of them before, or if I have, it was only in passing...
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-1-2002 at 01:22 AM

Thought Masters of Medicine

The term "Thought Masters of Medicine" first appeared in the novel The Final Reflection. As with much in the book it's one of those things you pick up in context. Since the military was responsible for all scientific research I got the impression that it was a loose association of the Empire's most brilliant and productive medical scientists. Note that we're talking Klingons here; at this point in history, anyway, the military controlled just about every aspect of life, and there was no ethics review board through which projects had to be cleared before proceeding. You either convinced the government that your project was worth funding and supporting in terms of possible payoff, or you did what you were ordered to do or face the consequences.

Having said that, I was able to find this ref from "FASA Publication 2002: The Klingons", p. 33, which states: "The highest technical rank is 'Thought Master'. There is no direct Federation equivalent, but a Klingon Thought Master should be treated as a tenured full professor with multiple doctorates, an authority in his or her field."

Unlike professors, though, I got the impression that they had no delusions of teaching, aside from the occasional lecture or seminar - that would be too menial - but were highly accomplished researchers or scholars. Take it all with a grain of salt. Your Mileage May Vary.

- Kesvirit
 

[kratnor]

posted on 9-1-2002 at 05:14 AM

Disposal of the Dead

I just found this subject and find the posts interesting , long and involved. The statement was made that it's a large empire. I agree, so there are likely many developements on this subject from planet to planet. But originally we all came from Qonos, a rather harsh planet by humanoid standards if I am not mistaken and located in a system short on resources. It would seem likely that waste would be seen as dishonorable. Would this apply to the corpses of the dead? Perhaps there are great mulching fields of the honored dead. There is nothing tastier than wine from fruit grown on the field of battle. True blood wine! Ahhh. The glory of dead warriors could be celebrated in many ways.
Also, I think ,in reference to the slaying of the Klingon Gods and Goddesses, this does not necessarily imply a negation of mysticism. It meerly shows how Klingons deal with incompetent or bad leadership. String 'em up and let Kahless sort 'em out!
The cult of the warrior places an almost holy burden on the individual. The body is meerly a vehicle, or the weapon with which the warrior carries out the klingon codes of honor and truth. Great houses honor the weapons of past great warriors, but what of their bodies? I seem to remember in the movie Star Trek IV 'The journey home' the 'Klingon Mumification Glyph' is mentioned during Spocks computer lessons. Interesting. This implies that some Klingons where mummified, possibly as revered symbols of the house's past great deeds. Nothing would inspire the young ones more than singing epic stories of an ancestors battles, blood caked on the walls etc., then to dramaticly haul out his massive remains still clutching his batleth. How the rotting flesh of the dead is treated has less importance than the memory of the qa' "spirit" of the warrior and it's great battles .
.
Kra'tnor.
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-4-2002 at 09:01 AM

What of the Rest?

kratnor wrote

...The statement was made that it's a large empire. I agree, so there are likely many developements on this subject from planet to planet. But originally we all came from Qonos,

I for one doubt this. The debate over the Karsid Empire notwithstanding, the Klingon Empire was formed by conquest and fueled by need, opportunism, and testosterone. I'm sure that many other peoples and races were assimilated as well as destoyed as the Empire expanded. Physical and cultural characteristics flow both ways, especially when populations are taken by force.

a rather harsh planet by humanoid standards if I am not mistaken and located in a system short on resources. It would seem likely that waste would be seen as dishonorable. Would this apply to the corpses of the dead? Perhaps there are great mulching fields of the honored dead. There is nothing tastier than wine from fruit grown on the field of battle. True blood wine! Ahhh. The glory of dead warriors could be celebrated in many ways.

Hmm... interesting idea. A combination cemetary and vineyard whose product quality is judged by the glory of the battle, not the year of the, er, grape?

The cult of the warrior places an almost holy burden on the individual. The body is meerly a vehicle, or the weapon with which the warrior carries out the klingon codes of honor and truth.

Not all Klingons are warriors, and not all subscribe to the Cult of the Warrior. It is a cult, like any other religion. I don't think that every Klingon really wants to be Kahless anymore than every Christian wants to be Christ. Not everyone can meet the ideal of the kamikaze warrior out for a glorious death, or the species would soon be extinct.

Great houses honor the weapons of past great warriors, but what of their bodies? I seem to remember in the movie Star Trek IV 'The journey home' the 'Klingon Mumification Glyph' is mentioned during Spocks computer lessons. Interesting. This implies that some Klingons where mummified, possibly as revered symbols of the house's past great deeds. Nothing would inspire the young ones more than singing epic stories of an ancestors battles, blood caked on the walls etc., then to dramaticly haul out his massive remains still clutching his batleth. How the rotting flesh of the dead is treated has less importance than the memory of the qa' "spirit" of the warrior and it's great battles.

I think it was Napolean who first noted that "an army marches on its stomach". Someone has to grow the food, manufacture the battleships, uniforms, and materiel, raise and teach future generations of sacrificial lambs... In such a militaristic society I would think that the civilian sector who performed such mundane roles would be categorized as "the rear". It's a real shame that these folks never get any credit for their part in victories or simply in keeping the great war machine going. Are these people considered among the "honored" dead? I rather doubt it. How would their bodies be disposed of? Are their spirits remembered, or acknowleged at all? These are not rhetorical questions. We're talking about the majority of the population here.

- Kesvirit
 

[Klythe]

posted on 9-5-2002 at 08:44 PM

Looks like I lost a post to the mirgation...

Obviously this has never been addressed in the show, where we are just there as bad guys. (we need out own show really, really badly!)

To my knowledge only once in the books... It was the TOS book in the "Day of Honor" series, I can't remember the title off hand...

Anyway, the book made it clear that warriors should respect the others who support them and who they fight for. I have made it a point to treat Klingons of other occupations as if they were doing battle in thier own way. One can farm with honor. Anyone who achieves success in service to the empire should be lauded. As a warrior society, I imagine those with less militant occupations have thier accomplishments described using warrior analogies, such as "He battled the plague and devised the cure which defeat it.", or "The victorious farmer captured the largest crop this year from his fields."

I feel bolstered in this view with Mark Okrand's "Curse Warfare" where one can gain honor by wit and creative insults regardless of prowess in battle.

Okay, know it's my turn... I'm pretty old school, ackowleding enmies as diverse as the Kzin and the Kinshaya, but what was the Karsid Empire? Did someone apply than name to the "Old Kings". I thought TNG settled that and named them the HerQ?
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-6-2002 at 07:19 AM

Post-mortem Status of Non-Warriors?; The Karsid Empire

quoth Klythe Obviously this has never been addressed in the show, where we are just there as bad guys. (we need out own show really, really badly!)

Don't be so hasty -- guess who would be producing it? Do we really want B&B screwing things up more than they already have?

...It was the TOS book in the "Day of Honor" series, I can't remember the title off hand... Anyway, the book made it clear that warriors should respect the others who support them and who they fight for. I have made it a point to treat Klingons of other occupations as if they were doing battle in thier own way. One can farm with honor. Anyone who achieves success in service to the empire should be lauded. I'll have to find that book and read it.

Aside from this sentiment, is it any good?

It's nice to see that someone else shares those values. Both in the franchise and in fandom everyone is or aspires to be some sort of supersoldier. I'd still like an answer to my question, though, if ever you come across one.

I feel bolstered in this view with Mark Okrand's "Curse Warfare" where one can gain honor by wit and creative insults regardless of prowess in battle.

Hey, it's not like Okrand came up with the concept. We 'Zarkies have been practicing "insult wars" for generations, with a very Klingon-like twist: the point is to get as abrasive as possible without stepping over the proverbial line and having someone take enough offense to relieve you of your teeth. Alliances and threads have been known to last for years. Unlike Klingons, Human teeth don't grow back.

Okay, know it's my turn... I'm pretty old school, ackowleding enmies as diverse as the Kzin and the Kinshaya, but what was the Karsid Empire? Did someone apply than name to the "Old Kings". I thought TNG settled that and named them the HerQ?

IIRC (If I Remember Correctly) the Karsids were first mentioned in the book Ishmael by Barbara Hambly, in which Spock... well, I don't want to give away the plot, but he gets really, really misplaced and the Enterprise crew has to track him down and bring him home. I found out a few years later that the book was a crossover with another series that is otherwise terminally putrid. (I'm not telling you which one because the book is great and I don't want to turn you off of it.)

But I digress. Something (I can't remember what) caused the downfall of the Karsid Empire and left a power vacuum. The Klingons were the #2 group in the area and stepped in to fill it, basically inheriting it intact. It would go a long way towards explaining how a military culture in which people weren't exactly encouraged to work cooperatively achieved relatively advanced spaceflight technology.

- Kesvirit

P.S. Have you ever known TNG to settle anything?

[Klythe]

posted on 9-6-2002 at 11:57 PM

Don't be so hasty -- guess who would be producing it? Do we really want B&B screwing things up more than they already have?

So, we will take the show by force! They will do the show as instructed or the will die like the kuve they are.

I'll have to find that book and read it. Aside from this sentiment, is it any good?

The story is adequate, but not much to inspire a warrior. Another bunch of throw away aliens... If I recall...

I'd still like an answer to my question, though, if ever you come across one.

Which question? Whether or not warriors of other occupations are honored? That depends on who you expect to do the honoring. Many warriors have not learned the lesson, or do not think about those who fight battles more figuratively than litterally. These are the much over represented minnority. If we start to see Klingons who are not in the military... Like Worf's nanny, Kahlest, or was it Wiston? Worf seemed to respect her, if nothing else as an elder...

Hey, it's not like Okrand came up with the concept. We 'Zarkies...

HSarqIyHS? What is a Zarky? Not sure how Klingon like that is... Isn't the point in Klingon insult wars that you *should* insult them until your opponent gets thoroughly upset and admits defeat my attacking you?

the Karsids were first mentioned in the book Ishmael by Barbara Hambly,

DoH! I've had that book since not long after it came out, I guess I missed reading it... Doh! Something to remedy this weekend...
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-9-2002 at 06:31 AM

Respect For Non-Warriors; Insult Wars

quoth Klythe So, we will take the show by force! They will do the show as instructed or the will die like the kuve they are.

If only. :-/ We've got them outnumbered, but they've got us outgunned in the form of outmoneyed and outlawyered.

"Zarky" is short for Ozarkian, or Ozarker. An obscure regional reference. Sorry about that, Chief. :-P When I get excited my references tend to get a bit obscure. (I wish there were an "embarrassed" smilie to go here, but I can see why there isn't -- I suspect that no self-respecting Klingon would use it, even if one were avaliable. :rolleyes: )

Whether or not warriors of other occupations are honored? That depends on who you expect to do the honoring. Many warriors have not learned the lesson, or do not think about those who fight battles more figuratively than litterally. These are the much over represented minnority. If we start to see Klingons who are not in the military... Like Worf's nanny, Kahlest, or was it Wiston? Worf seemed to respect her, if nothing else as an elder...

I don't think these warriors are in the minority at all. Despite the sanitized, rose-colored-glasses weltanschauung (galaxyanschauung?) of TNG, caste bigotry seems to be a universal concept that is alive and well. If memory serves, Picard had to track down Khalest in a shantytown in the old quarter of the capital city, where she was living in shame and anonymity for having had the bad taste to be one of the few survivors of the Khitomer attack. If Worf respected her I think it was with the kind of affection a child shows toward a parent (she was his primary care-giver, early on), not as one adult toward another of a non-military occupation of lower status. He didn't even know she was still alive, and she was content to suffer in silence, to "remain dead".

I doubt she even looked for other survivors. I wonder what would happened had she done so. If she and others had come out of hiding to reclaim their lives, would thay have been killed out of enbarassment?

Who was Wiston?

As for my arguement that all productive roles should be worthy of recognition and honor by the ranking warriors, I found a couple of quotes that could just as easily apply to the Empire:
"If we were all determined to play the first violin we should never have a full ensemble. Therefore respect every musician in his proper place." (Schumann)
"A symphony must be like the world. It must contain everything." (Mahler)
 To follow this analogy, try convincing anyone else of that, let alone the first violins. The poor schlubs stuck playing second viola or third flute never get their due, yet without them there would be no harmony. The only one to value their contribution is the composer who wrote their parts in the first place, but the Klingons (and here I'm assuming it was the warriors) killed off their gods ages ago to take over the role. Am I making any sense here?

Isn't the point in Klingon insult wars that you *should* insult them until your opponent gets thoroughly upset and admits defeat my attacking you?

Good point. I didn't realize that attacking one's opponent was to admit defeat. Is the point to win by making them lose self-control, or is having them attack you some sort of reward for winning? I can easily visualize the latter, especially in such a masochistic culture.

Not to pick nits or anything (insert another of those hypothetical "embarassed" smilies here), but in reference to the first bit I quoted... As I understood it, in "The Final Reflection" there was a slight but signifigant difference between kuve and straav'. Kuve translates into "servitor", while straav' means "slave". The kuve is treated with some degree of dignity because they are honorably carrying out their destined role of serving others. A straav', on the other hand, is forced to serve due to some sort of dishonor. I suspect that the former are along the line of serfs or inherited lines of family servants, while the latter are prizes or those paying for misdeeds done by their ancestors or something. I was a bit unclear on this point. (In TFR, context is everything...)

- Kesvirit
 

[Kesvirit]

posted on 9-11-2002 at 04:59 AM

"nol"

A few posts ago kratnor mentioned the "Klingon mummification glyph" from ST4. While looking for something completely unrelated I stumbled across a word for "funeral" in my 1985 edition of The Klingon Dictionary:"nol".

These factors when taken together indicate to me that at some point, at least some prominent individuals were mourned/recognized/honored with something a bit more substantial than bellowing at the ceiling.

- Kesvirit

[kratnor]

posted on 9-29-2002 at 04:02 AM

Disposal of the Dead

The Warriors do get most of the press in the empire, and that is biased. They are, apparently, at the top of the social pyramid, with the rulers, and it's they who write the history. They would not exist without the support of the rest of the population. Great artisan's and merchant's deaths would be just as significant, the dead would be warned when a wise, and cunning merchant was coming too, probubly.
My next klingon clothing construct will be a 'civilian' style tunic, since it is obvious that not all the population would be in the armed forces.
Kra'tnor