Kos'karii

[Pyeknu]

Is the word kos'karii (the name of the devil serpents of the underworld) spelt and pronounced that way.  Or would it be spelt and pronounced differently?

[ter'eS]

I'm not familiar with this term.  Where does it come from?

If you mean, how would it be spelt in tlhIngan Hol, I can't tell you, except to note that k isn't used in tlhIngan, and there are almost no double consonants in its words, so the combination s'k would not be allowed.

If this were indeed a tlhIngan Hol word, it would probably be qoSqa'rIy, but that's just a guess.

[reySIr]

He would be referring to this...  http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kos%27karii

They only made one appearance, that being on an ep of ST: Voyager.  There is no thlIngan Hol spelling that i know of.

I'd say the version ter'es posted is as good as any, though i might put an extra ' after the S:   qoS'qa'rIy.


reySIr




[Edit -- added link. -=- Kesvirit]

[tesseraktik]

I'd say the version ter'es posted is as good as any, though i might put an extra ' after the S:   qoS'qa'rIy.

The sequence of consonants S'q is kind of outside the standard tlhIngan Hol phonotax, though. Of course, this has sometimes been done with alien names (such as qIrq and pIqarD), so it's not unthinkable that the same would be done for creatures from ancient legends.

[ter'eS]

You will notice that in both those names, the first consonant is an r. This is the only consonant cluster allowed in Klingon. The combination sibilant (S) + stop (') + stop (q) is not allowed. The glottal stop ' isn't an optional decoration, it's an actual consonant. What does it add to the sound of the word? I wouldn't just stick one anywhere in a word any more than I would add unnecessary t's or b's. In fact, I only added the stop in the original word to maintain the CVC structure of the syllables.

[reySIr]

I was trying to analyze it from the reverse direction.  The Federation Standard word is kos'karii.  Now, why would the FS version have an apostrophe?  Why would it not be koskarii, no apostrophe?  To me that would suggest a pause, or jump in the sound of the word.  So that's where the stop ' comes in.  I know it's not for decoration, i was actually hoping to use it for the right effect. 

But thinking about it, you are probably correct.  I reminded myself that every syllable in klingon is very deliberately pronounced already.  So perhaps an apostrophe is needed for the effect in FS, whereas ' is not needed when speaking tlhIngan Hol.

That said, do we for certain need the ' before the rIy?  If so, why is that?


reySIr (or is that rey'SIr ? )

[tesseraktik]

You will notice that in both those names, the first consonant is an r. This is the only consonant cluster allowed in Klingon.

Pretty; we know of rgh and y' at the end of syllables. r and gh are also probably the least "consonanty" consonants in the Klingon language; r is actually considered a vowel in some languages.

But thinking about it, you are probably correct.  I reminded myself that every syllable in klingon is very deliberately pronounced already.  So perhaps an apostrophe is needed for the effect in FS, whereas ' is not needed when speaking tlhIngan Hol.

Indeed; the choppy sounds of Klingon sometimes sound to humans like long strings of consonants, which of course is far from the case.

That said, do we for certain need the ' before the rIy?  If so, why is that?

I'd argue we need it because otherwise the syllable qa will largely be swallowed up, whereas as I recall that episode, it should in fact be emphasized.

[Pyeknu]

If you mean, how would it be spelt in tlhIngan Hol, I can't tell you, except to note that k isn't used in tlhIngan, and there are almost no double consonants in its words, so the combination s'k would not be allowed.

If this were indeed a tlhIngan Hol word, it would probably be qoSqa'rIy, but that's just a guess.

Many thanks for your assistance in this matter.

BTW, as this is going into a fan fiction story I'm writing now which is being posted @ Fanfiction.net, you've been added to the credit list for the translation.

FYI, the story can be found here:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7140720/1/Avalonians_and_Questors

[ter'eS]

I was trying to analyze it from the reverse direction.  The Federation Standard word is kos'karii.  Now, why would the FS version have an apostrophe?  Why would it not be koskarii, no apostrophe? 

Because the writers at Paramount evidently do think that the ' is just a decoration. They throw them in all the time for no apparent reason.

Edited to add: In English, we use the ' basically to show that a letter has been dropped from a word, especially in dialect: 'appy (for happy), goin' (for going).  To show chopped-up syllables, we usually use a hyphen: uh-oh, uh-huh, Yu-gi-o. The Paremount writers seem to use the apostrophe mostly to substitute for various letters, eg. p'tak for petaQ, or as a simple decoration, as in our word in question.  I think they're just looking for an "alien" look to the word, and you can't really read anything into it.

[qoSagh]

The mistake here is in thinking of this as a federation standard word, it no more meets the conventions of federation standard than it does tlhIngan Hol. If anything it is likely old enough (in theory) to be klingonasse, although there is not authority to add to that language. It does bear some resemblance to those words.

When transliterating words between klingonasse and tlhIngan Hol, one must sometimes be fairly creative. I am not sure that I would have any " ' " in the tlhIngan Hol version unless absolutely needed. Since they serve different purposes in the two languages, they do not necessarily transfer directly between the two.

[Pyeknu]

Again, my thanks to everyone who wrote on that here.

But sadly, here's another one I need to get put into proper romanisation 

Kellicam (the unit of measure)

How would that be written in transliterated tlhIngan Hol?

[ter'eS]

That's a real one (i.e. we have canon for it): qelI'qam

[Pyeknu]

And I assume -- after a quick check of the Klingon dictionary -- that the plural form is qelI'qammey?

[tesseraktik]

And I assume -- after a quick check of the Klingon dictionary -- that the plural form is qelI'qammey?

I can find no canonical examples where qelI'qammey are mentioned, but judging by the fact that Okrand has used 'ujmey, I think it's safe to pluralize qelI'qam this way. However, the -mey would be optional in many scenarios.

[ter'eS]

This is true. For example, I personally wouldn't put the plural on any use of qelI'qam with numbers: eg. wa'SaD qelI'qam 'one thousand kellicams'. It's obviously plural; adding the suffix seems too much like English, otherwise.