Klingon Imperial Forums
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
Did you miss your
activation email?
05 24, 2012, 02:32: AM
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
Search:
Advanced search
Thu 28Aug2008 22:30 PDT:
Guest access restored.
11538
Posts in
1551
Topics by
820
Members
Latest Member:
sarakkatz
Klingon Imperial Forums
Klingon Language & Culture
Klingon Language
Litany Against Fear
« previous
next »
Pages:
[
1
]
Author
Topic: Litany Against Fear (Read 1592 times)
jIHaD
Senior Courier
Offline
Posts: 51
Litany Against Fear
«
on:
09 03, 2010, 03:24: PM »
jIghIjnISlu'be'.
I must not fear.
yab HoHwI' 'oH ghIjlu'taHghach'e'.
Fear is the killer of the mind.
Sangchu'ghach qembogh HeghHom 'oH ghIjlu'taHghach'e'.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
ghIjlu'taHghachwIj vISuv.
I will fight my fear.
mujuS 'e' vIchaw'.
I will allow it to pass me.
ghoSta'DI' ghIjlu'taHghach, HeDaj leghmeH yab mIn vIlo'.
When the fear has gone, I will use the mind's eye to see its course.
ghIjlu'taHghach HeDaq, pagh tu'lu'.
On the fear's course, there will be nothing.
jIratlh jIH neH.
Only I will remain.
Get to the nit-picking, folks.
Logged
logh 'oH HeH Qav'e'.
naDev 'entepray' Duj lengmey ta gherlu'.
Qu'Daj taHbogh: Hujbogh chu'bogh je qo' chovmeH, yIn chu', tayqeqmey chu' je SammeH, 'ej pe'vIl Daqmey'e' Suchpu'bogh pagh ghoSmeH.
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #1 on:
09 03, 2010, 08:07: PM »
Quote from: jIHaD on 09 03, 2010, 03:24: PM
Get to the nit-picking, folks.
Don't mind if I do!
jIghIjnISlu'be'
- You need to change the
jI
- to a
vI
-
I'm uncertain if the -
be'
should go after
ghIj
or -
lu'
; I have a feeling that it is the former, but perhaps somebody else knows better.
Anyhow, I kind of read this as "It is essential for one to not scare me", which to me is a different concept than "It is essential for me to not be scared", but again, I don't know. It's unfortunate that -
vIp
and -
nIS
belong to the same class; I'd've liked to use something like
jIvangvIpbe'nIS
{I must not be afraid to act}.
Perhaps something like
vIghIjlu'chugh jIQapHa'pu'.
{If I am scared, I have failed}, or
vIghIjlu' 'e' vItuchnIS
{I must forbid that I am scared}.
Of course, because this is prose, it's hard to say what's "correct", anyway.
ghIjlu'taHghach'e'
- It's hard to comment on -
ghach
-constructions, but this does seem to mean "the act/quality/state of being scared", so it makes sense.
Sangchu'ghach qembogh HeghHom 'oH ghIjlu'taHghach'e'.
- This seems to be correct, but I'd probably go with
Sangchu'bogh HeghHom 'oH ghIjlu'taHghach'e'.
{Scared-ness is the little-death that obliterates totally}, but that's more a matter of taste.
mujuS 'e' vIchaw'.
- The problems here is that
juS
is translated not only as "pass", but also as "overtake", so it can be taken to mean "I will allow it to catch up to me", which isn't necessarily what you want. I might suggest
mutlhej 'e' vIchaw'Qo'.
{I refuse to allow it to accompany me}.
ghoSta'DI' ghIjlu'taHghach
- It's worth noting that
ghoS
means not only "to go", but also "to approach" or "to come", and the -
ta'
makes me think more of the latter ("When fear has purposefully come here").
Perhaps
mej
or
tlhaD
{leave/depart} would be more appropriate? Or
lengtaHvIS
{as it travels}?
Now, folks, get to nit-picking my nit-picking!
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #2 on:
09 07, 2010, 01:02: PM »
Here's my comments
Yes,
-be'
should go after the
-nIS
or the
ghIj
, depending on what you want to mean (
jIghIjnISbe'
-
I don't need to scare
,
jIghIjbe'nIS
-
I need to not scare
). Maybe something like:
mughIj 'e' vIchaw'be'nIS
-
I need to not allow it to scare me
ghIjlu'taHghach
doesn't make sense in my mind.
-lu'
makes the doer of the verb unknown, yet we are turning this into a noun.
A note about
-ghach
. If you attach
-ghach
to an stative verb (eg
tIn
-
be big
) then it becomes a -ness word:
tIntaHghach
-
*bigness/the quality of being big
. If you attach it to an activity verb (eg
ghIj
-
scare
) then it becomes a -tion word:
ghIjtaHghach
-
*scare-tion/the activity of scaring
(maybe fright might be a better translation as in "I gave him a fright"). This is how I read
Okrand comments on it
.
Quote from: Fraek
ghIjlu'taHghach'e'
- It's hard to comment on
-ghach
-constructions, but this does seem to mean "the act/quality/state of being scared", so it makes sense.
ghIj
is
to scare
, not
to be scared
. So it's not the "act/quality/state of being scared", it's the "act of scaring".
Instead of
Sangchu'ghach
, you can just use
QIHna'
(definite destruction), then you can avoid the -ghach clause:
QIHna' qembogh HeghHom'e' 'oH ghIjtaHghach
-
"fright" is the small death that brings definite destruction
.
Quote from: jIHHaD
ghoSta'DI' ghIjlu'taHghach, HeDaj leghmeH yab mIn vIlo'.
When the fear has gone, I will use the mind's eye to see its course.
I don't think
-ta'
is correct here. The fear didn't plan to go somewhere and then succeed at doing it. Remember it's aspect, not tense. I also wonder about
ghoS
, since it's so ambiguous (approach, go, etc). I would have gone with something like this:
mejDI' ghIjtaHghach, HeDaj vIleghmeH yab mIn vIlo'
-
When the fright has left, I will use the mind's eye in order that I see it's course.
Quote from: jIHHHaD
jIratlh jIH neH.
Only I will remain.
I wonder if the
jIH
is overkill. Right now it means: I, and only I, only remain. Some suggestions:
jIratlh neH
-
Only I remain
nIteb jIratlh
-
I remain alone
Here's some canon examples of how
ghIj
is used:
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'
. (O
nly fools can never be scared by someone - Someone can never scare only fools
)
Only fools have no fear.
vay' DaghIjlaHchugh bIHoSghaj.
(
If you can scare someone, you are powerful
)
Fear is power.
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #3 on:
09 07, 2010, 06:02: PM »
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 07, 2010, 01:02: PM
Quote from: Fraek
ghIjlu'taHghach'e'
- It's hard to comment on
-ghach
-constructions, but this does seem to mean "the act/quality/state of being scared", so it makes sense.
ghIj
is
to scare
, not
to be scared
. So it's not the "act/quality/state of being scared", it's the "act of scaring".
I figure that's what the
lu'
is there for; to convert it from "the act of scaring" to "the act of being scared". However, I don't think there are any canonical examples of -
lu'
being used in a -
ghach
-construction, so I don't know if this is actually possible.
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 07, 2010, 01:02: PM
Quote from: jIHHHaD
jIratlh jIH neH.
Only I will remain.
I wonder if the
jIH
is overkill. Right now it means: I, and only I, only remain. Some suggestions:
jIratlh neH
-
Only I remain
Wouldn't that just trivializ the remaining? "I merely remain."
http://klingonska.org/ref/adv.html
Anyhow,
jIratlh jIH neH.
works for me; there is a canonical example in which a pronoun is used to emphasize the subject:
lujpu' jIH'e'.
- It is I who have failed.
I figure
neH
can take the place of -
'e'
; it's definitely grammatically correct, and it makes sense.
«
Last Edit: 09 07, 2010, 06:28: PM by Fraek
»
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #4 on:
09 08, 2010, 09:03: AM »
Quote from: Fraek on 09 07, 2010, 06:02: PM
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 07, 2010, 01:02: PM
Quote from: jIHHHaD
jIratlh jIH neH.
Only I will remain.
I wonder if the
jIH
is overkill. Right now it means: I, and only I, only remain. Some suggestions:
jIratlh neH
-
Only I remain
Wouldn't that just trivializ the remaining? "I merely remain."
http://klingonska.org/ref/adv.html
That's a good point. Without a noun there it would appear to mean "I only remain". I guess the
jIH
would be needed to shift the focus of
neH
, but it feels to me like it adds extra meaning too. I think we need something else.
Quote from: Fraek on 09 07, 2010, 06:02: PM
Anyhow,
jIratlh jIH neH.
works for me; there is a canonical example in which a pronoun is used to emphasize the subject:
lujpu' jIH'e'.
- It is I who have failed.
I figure
neH
can take the place of -
'e'
; it's definitely grammatically correct, and it makes sense.
In
lujpu' jIH'e'
there is no verb prefix and
jIH'e'
is taking it's place. So if we go with:
ratlh jIH'e' neH
It is only I who remains
then it would mimic the "failed" sentence, it uses jIH, -'e' and neH so you get tons of emphasis on the speaker being the only person there.
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
Kehlan
Word Warrior
Online
Posts: 499
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #5 on:
09 08, 2010, 03:57: PM »
I thought this thread was familiar... the subject of the Litany against fear has been raised before... I just found the old thread....
http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php/topic,1065.0.html
Logged
Captain Kehlan
USS Endeavour NCC-71805
Federation/Klingon Rapid Response Fleet
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #6 on:
09 08, 2010, 05:48: PM »
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 08, 2010, 09:03: AM
In
lujpu' jIH'e'
there is no verb prefix and
jIH'e'
is taking it's place.
Good point; I missed that!
That's actually a very interesting deviation from the rule stated on page on p.60 of TKD: When the subject/object is first or second person, you must use the correct prefix [as in
yaS vIlegh jIH
{I see the officer.}].
I guess that means that in some sense,
jIH'e'
is grammatically a third-person argument in
lujpu' jIH'e'
{it is the me-person that has failed}.
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 08, 2010, 09:03: AM
So if we go with:
ratlh jIH'e' neH
It is only I who remains
then it would mimic the "failed" sentence, it uses jIH, -'e' and neH so you get tons of emphasis on the speaker being the only person there.
Aye, that could work, although I think using both -
'e'
and
neH
feels like a bit of an overkill; it feels as though the
neH
does the trick of topicalizing the
jIH
, anyway. However, that's just a gut feeling, and the proverb you provided (
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'.
- "Only fools are never scared.") suggests that one can use both in the same sentence. I wonder if perhaps the -
'e'
is what keeps that sentence from meaning "One never scares only fools."
Interestngly, if
neH
were a verb/adjective, like most of the words you use to modify nouns, I'd argue that
jIH neH'e'
was the correct phrase. However,
neH
is explicitly stated (TKD p. 57) as an adverbial that can follow nouns, so were it not for the proverb you stated I wouldn't be sure how it was to be used.
Quote from: Kehlan on 09 08, 2010, 03:57: PM
I thought this thread was familiar... the subject of the Litany against fear has been raised before... I just found the old thread....
http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php/topic,1065.0.html
Daj.
{Interesting!}
I see that they've used
Haj
{to dread} rather than
ghIj
{to scare}, which makes sense. Then, "I must not fear" could be translated as
jIHajbe'nIS
{I-(dread-not)-necessarily}, and one could perhaps then refer to "fear" as
HajtaHghach
{ongoing dreading}... ...or, if one wants to be very particular:
Hajghach
{dreading}. Normally, the nominalizer suffix -
ghach
isn't found following lone stems,
according to Marc Okrand
:
Quote
HQ: So, if we use {-ghach} on a bare stem...
MO: It's a highly marked form. It's a word you are forming for a specific
occasion and a specific effect. If you were a poet or philosopher or
hard scientist and had to describe something very specifically these
kinds of words might be appropriate but it carries the feeling of very
technical arcane vocabulary, not normal everyday stuff. So can you
say it? Yes, but you are saying more, rather than less or neutral.
So, saying
Hajghach
may be quite a powerful expression, as is perhaps appropriate here, but you use it at your own risk; you may get into a violent debate with other poets and philosphers on what the true meaning of
Hajghach
is!
Also, that article also brings up the subject of attaching -
ghach
to verbs with prefixes (and, supposedly, the -
lu'
-suffix): It's freaking weird, but not unheard of.
jIHajghach
would mean something like "the action of me dreading", and
vIghIjlu'ghach
would mean something like "the action of me being scared".
ghIjlu'ghach
would mean something like "the action of being scared"; I'm not sure if the fact that -
lu'
is a prefix makes this construction seem more "normal" to Klingons than ones that use prefixes.
Also, another suggesiton would be
vangvIpghach
; "being afraid to act". This is perhaps a bit more specific than the phrase "be afraid", but possibly appropriate, depending on what you mean to express. Is fear always bad, or is it only bad when it keeps you from doing what needs to be done? Can fear perhaps be a good thing, because it keeps you alert, or keeps you from taking dumb risks? The proverb qurgh mentioned suggest that at least some Klingons think being completely without fear is foolilsh.
Perhaps
vangvIpchu'ghach
, "being completely afraid of acting", could mean something like "debilitating fear", or fear which not only makes you afraid of doing something (perhaps in a good way),
prevents you
from doing it. That, is, however, up for debate.
Y'know, I wonder if somebody will one day start lexicalizing -
ghach
-construction, and cause a great controversy in the Klingonist community similar to the way the lexicalizing of
lujvo
is controversial among Lojbanists
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #7 on:
09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM »
I was going to try and wade through the mass of code and quote out bits, but it was giving me a headache so I started fresh
I'm going to admit to a misunderstanding I had about neH, that was pointed out to me by Captain Krankor (the KLI's head grammarian):
neH
trivialises the verb or noun it's following, it doesn't mean "alone", which I how I understand the final phrase in the litany. After that conversation, I'd switch it to:
nIteb jIratlh
-
I will remain alone
nIteb jIratlh jIH
-
I, and only I, will remain alone
I think the last one really sums up the concept.
Now onto -ghach:
Recently I asked Marc for words for apathy and corruption. He gave me these options:
SaHHa'ghach - disinterest (unconcerned about-ness)
quvHa'ghach - dishonor (unhonor-ness)
Which made me think about using different suffixes:
Hajchu'ghach
-
perfect dread
(perfect dread-ness)
Hajbejghach
-
certain dread
(certain dread-ness)
Hajlaw'ghach
-
apparent dread
(apprent dread-ness)
Hajba'ghach
-
obvious dread
(obvious dread-ness)
or
ghIjchu'ghach
-
perfect fear
ghIjbejghach
-
certain fear
etc etc
I think one of these may work better than using something with
-lu'
and
-taH
.
I would avoid using marked clauses like
Hajghach
unless nothing else works. In this case we have other words that would work.
I've been working on a translation with some help from Captain Krankor and he actually suggested using a
-ghach
clause with a prefix, but he commented that he's only doing it because there was no other way and it's very controversial to do it (some people say it's ok, others say it's very not ok). In that light I'm going to try and avoid them unless I have to, since they are very hard to translate into other languages, due to our lack of knowledge on how they really work.
Quote
Y'know, I wonder if somebody will one day start lexicalizing -ghach-construction, and cause a great controversy in the Klingonist community similar to the way the lexicalizing of lujvo is controversial among Lojbanists
It was done by Glen Prochel from the Interstellar Language School in his "Complete Klingon dictionary". He put in a lot of
-ghach
words, and ended up causing quite a fuss due to the fact that they could be understood in other ways that the definitions he gave.
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #8 on:
09 14, 2010, 04:28: PM »
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM
I'm going to admit to a misunderstanding I had about neH, that was pointed out to me by Captain Krankor (the KLI's head grammarian):
neH
trivialises the verb or noun it's following, it doesn't mean "alone", which I how I understand the final phrase in the litany.
In that case, this is a misunderstanding we share. I took it from what little is said of the word in TKD that it can also mean "alone", as that is the translation that is given, and
yaS neH
is translated both as "only the officer" and as "the officer alone".
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM
I've been working on a translation with some help from Captain Krankor and he actually suggested using a
-ghach
clause with a prefix, but he commented that he's only doing it because there was no other way and it's very controversial to do it (some people say it's ok, others say it's very not ok). In that light I'm going to try and avoid them unless I have to, since they are very hard to translate into other languages, due to our lack of knowledge on how they really work.
Aye, Okrand mentions that it's a highly marked form, and so it's a bit risky to use.
I rather like
Hajchu'ghach
(perfect dread); I feel that it suggests a dread which really has an impact on you, perhaps preventing you from doing something (as opposed to non-perfect dread, which might make you uncomfortable while doing something but without really slowing you down or stopping you).
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM
Quote
Y'know, I wonder if somebody will one day start lexicalizing -ghach-construction, and cause a great controversy in the Klingonist community similar to the way the lexicalizing of lujvo is controversial among Lojbanists
It was done by Glen Prochel from the Interstellar Language School in his "Complete Klingon dictionary". He put in a lot of
-ghach
words, and ended up causing quite a fuss due to the fact that they could be understood in other ways that the definitions he gave.
Ah, interesting to hear that this parallel exists
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #9 on:
09 15, 2010, 09:51: PM »
Quote from: Fraek on 09 14, 2010, 04:28: PM
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM
I'm going to admit to a misunderstanding I had about neH, that was pointed out to me by Captain Krankor (the KLI's head grammarian):
neH
trivialises the verb or noun it's following, it doesn't mean "alone", which I how I understand the final phrase in the litany.
In that case, this is a misunderstanding we share. I took it from what little is said of the word in TKD that it can also mean "alone", as that is the translation that is given, and
yaS neH
is translated both as "only the officer" and as "the officer alone".
I think it's more of the "That guy did it by himself (although there were others there)" kind of "alone" and not the "There is no one else here" kind of "alone". Maybe some examples will help my explanation:
qIp yaS neH
-
Only the officer hit him (out of a group of people), the office alone hit him
nIteb qIp'egh yaS
-
Alone, the office hit himself
qIp neH yaS
-
The officer only hit him, the officer merely hit him, the officer just hit him
Dayaj'a'?
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #10 on:
09 16, 2010, 12:02: PM »
jIyaj, 'ach choponbe'pu'.
- I understand, but I am not convinced.
Saying that somebody does something by themselves doesn't necessarily seem like a way of trivializing them.
molar ghob 'e' ngIlpu' qeylIS neH.
- "Only Kahless dared to fight Molor."
This hardly trivializes Kahless; if anything, it sets him apart from other Klingons. On the same note,
ratlh jIH
(
'e'
)
neH.
makes some sense to me (although using
nIteb
certainly works, too).
Logged
El Payaso Malo
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 205
jaS jIvang-ghopwIj luQIHlu'chugh qIvonlIj vIpuplaH
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #11 on:
09 16, 2010, 01:43: PM »
What exactly is being debated here? The usage of
neH
to trivialize as opposed to meaing "be alone?"
From
the Klingon Way
.
Suvlu'taHvIS yapbe' HoS neH.
(Brute strength is not the most important asset in a fight. - 21)
'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH.
(Only an enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle. - 61)
wa' DoS neH yIbuS.
(Focus on but one target. - 81)
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'.
(Only fools have no fear. - 105)
meQtaHbogh qachDaq Suv qoH neH.
(Only a fool fights in a burning house. - 111)
HIvbe' qoHpu' neH.
(Only fools don't attack. - 113)
Hegh neH chav qoH.
(A fool's only achievement is death. - 115)
yIQeqQo' neH. DoS yIqIp!
(Don't just aim; hit the target! - 191)
Logged
-'IwwIjDaq 'oH veS.
-ngoQ ghajnISbe' vIq. vIq ngoQ 'oH vIq. qatlh ngej rop'a' bIghelbe' 'ej qatlh meQ yotlh bIghelbe'. jISuvDI' meqwIj vIQIj 'e' DaghelQo'.
-qul ngaDHa' 'oH QeHwIj 'ej vaHbo' pubbogh 'Iw 'oH QeHwIj. choHIvmo' qaSuvbe'. bIyIntaHmo' qaSuv.
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #12 on:
09 16, 2010, 08:30: PM »
I believe what is being debated is if
neH
can be used to refer to an object that is by itself or if it's used to select something out of a group.
And then by extension, if the final phrase of the literary is "I remain all by myself" or if it's "I remain out of a group of people", or maybe both.
The trivialization seems to effect verbs more than nouns, I should have been clearer in my orginal statement. Here's the quote from the dictionary (emphasis added):
Quote
neH only, merely, just
Unlike the other adverbials, it follows the verb which it
modifies. The semantic effect is one of
trivializing
the action.
qama' vIqIppu' neH I merely hit the prisoner.
(qama' prisoner, vIqIppu' I hit him/
her)
Duj yIQotlh neH Just disable the ship!
(Duj ship, vessel, yIQotlh disable it!)
The use of neH in the preceding sentence implies that the ship
is to be disabled, but not damaged further.
Also unlike the other adverbials, neH can follow a noun. In
such cases, it means only, alone.
yaS neH only the officer, the officer alone
jonta' neH only the engine
Now back to the original question. I that
neH
can only be used to refer to a person or object out of a larger group:
jonta' neH
-
only the engines
(not the rest of the ship)
wa' DoS neH yIbuS
-
Concentrate on one target only
(out of a group of targets)
HIvbe' qoHpu' neH
-
Only fools don't attack
(out of a group of fools and non-fools)
Hegh neH chav qoH
-
Fools achieve only death
(out of a bunch of things they could achieve... they are fools because they only achieve death)
molar ghob 'e' ngIlpu' qeylIS neH
-
Only Kahless dared to battle Molar
(only Kahless out of all the other Klingons on the planet)
If I wanted to say "Kahless fought molar and there was no one else there" I'd say:
nIteb ghob qeylIS molar je
-
Alone, Kahless and Molar fought
So for the last line of the literny our choices are:
jIratlh jIH neH
-
Only I remain
(from the group of people who where here)
nIteb jIratlh
-
Alone, I remain
(there's no one else here)
nIteb jIratlh jIH neH
-
Alone, only I remain
(the rest of the group are gone and now I'll all alone)
Did I miss anything?
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
El Payaso Malo
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 205
jaS jIvang-ghopwIj luQIHlu'chugh qIvonlIj vIpuplaH
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #13 on:
09 16, 2010, 11:26: PM »
I provided examples just to be used in the argument, for or against. There is also the verb
mob
("be alone") that can be added to the list of similar terms, if it hasn't been all ready.
Logged
-'IwwIjDaq 'oH veS.
-ngoQ ghajnISbe' vIq. vIq ngoQ 'oH vIq. qatlh ngej rop'a' bIghelbe' 'ej qatlh meQ yotlh bIghelbe'. jISuvDI' meqwIj vIQIj 'e' DaghelQo'.
-qul ngaDHa' 'oH QeHwIj 'ej vaHbo' pubbogh 'Iw 'oH QeHwIj. choHIvmo' qaSuvbe'. bIyIntaHmo' qaSuv.
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #14 on:
09 17, 2010, 07:29: AM »
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 16, 2010, 08:30: PM
I believe what is being debated is if
neH
can be used to refer to an object that is by itself or if it's used to select something out of a group.
And then by extension, if the final phrase of the literary is "I remain all by myself" or if it's "I remain out of a group of people", or maybe both.
Ah, alright, I think I see what you mean, now, and I think that might be the case.
Still, I figure
ratlh jIH neH
might still work, because it's pretty much saying "out of the group consisting of me and my fear, only I will remain".
Logged
Qunchuy
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 279
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #15 on:
09 18, 2010, 01:58: PM »
Quote from: qurgh_ on 09 10, 2010, 01:02: PM
I'm going to admit to a misunderstanding I had about neH, that was pointed out to me by Captain Krankor (the KLI's head grammarian):
neH
trivialises the verb or noun it's following, it doesn't mean "alone", which I how I understand the final phrase in the litany.
This interpretation was once emphasized to me by Marc Okrand himself. At lunch one day, when the server was taking drink orders, I said
bIQ neH
. He "corrected" me with
bIQ mob
. I thus found myself defending my use of
neH
to mean
only water
as in "simple water" rather than "water with nothing else."
Logged
El Payaso Malo
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 205
jaS jIvang-ghopwIj luQIHlu'chugh qIvonlIj vIpuplaH
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #16 on:
09 18, 2010, 03:22: PM »
Quote from: Qunchuy on 09 18, 2010, 01:58: PM
This interpretation was once emphasized to me by Marc Okrand himself. At lunch one day, when the server was taking drink orders, I said
bIQ neH
. He "corrected" me with
bIQ mob
. I thus found myself defending my use of
neH
to mean
only water
as in "simple water" rather than "water with nothing else."
Was your defense successful?
Logged
-'IwwIjDaq 'oH veS.
-ngoQ ghajnISbe' vIq. vIq ngoQ 'oH vIq. qatlh ngej rop'a' bIghelbe' 'ej qatlh meQ yotlh bIghelbe'. jISuvDI' meqwIj vIQIj 'e' DaghelQo'.
-qul ngaDHa' 'oH QeHwIj 'ej vaHbo' pubbogh 'Iw 'oH QeHwIj. choHIvmo' qaSuvbe'. bIyIntaHmo' qaSuv.
Qunchuy
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 279
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #17 on:
09 18, 2010, 09:45: PM »
Once I followed through and ordered more food,
bIQ mob
"water alone" was obviously a misinterpretation of my true intent, and
bIQ neH
"only water" was clearly an appropriate way to contrast my drink request with others'
qoqqoq
("Diet Coke") and
Dargh chuch je
("iced tea").
Logged
El Payaso Malo
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 205
jaS jIvang-ghopwIj luQIHlu'chugh qIvonlIj vIpuplaH
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #18 on:
09 19, 2010, 03:07: AM »
Quote from: Qunchuy on 09 18, 2010, 09:45: PM
Once I followed through and ordered more food,
bIQ mob
"water alone" was obviously a misinterpretation of my true intent, and
bIQ neH
"only water" was clearly an appropriate way to contrast my drink request with others'
qoqqoq
("Diet Coke") and
Dargh chuch je
("iced tea").
I have to know where you go to order in Klingon. Do they serve
ghargh
?
Logged
-'IwwIjDaq 'oH veS.
-ngoQ ghajnISbe' vIq. vIq ngoQ 'oH vIq. qatlh ngej rop'a' bIghelbe' 'ej qatlh meQ yotlh bIghelbe'. jISuvDI' meqwIj vIQIj 'e' DaghelQo'.
-qul ngaDHa' 'oH QeHwIj 'ej vaHbo' pubbogh 'Iw 'oH QeHwIj. choHIvmo' qaSuvbe'. bIyIntaHmo' qaSuv.
QoghtlhIH'u'
Old Guard
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 229
qaStaH nuq? toqDuj vImojchoH?
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #19 on:
10 26, 2010, 10:03: AM »
I am a bit late in this discussion on the Litany Against Fear, but I would like to point out that in
The Klingon Way
there are four or five sayings with 'fear' in the Federation Standard translation, but in the Klingon version the words are different each time.
I think that the point Okrand was trying to make is that Klingons do not know, or deny, the concept of fear. Instead, they only know how to scare others:
ghIj
A Klingon can express his/her ability to scare others but not to experience fear, it is as such not a concept.
Logged
QoghtlhIH'u'
Old Guard
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 229
qaStaH nuq? toqDuj vImojchoH?
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #20 on:
10 26, 2010, 10:08: AM »
By the way, tesseraktik, what did you do to fraek? Is he assimilated or something?
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #21 on:
10 27, 2010, 11:38: AM »
Quote from: QoghtlhIH'u' on 10 26, 2010, 10:03: AM
I am a bit late in this discussion on the Litany Against Fear, but I would like to point out that in
The Klingon Way
there are four or five sayings with 'fear' in the Federation Standard translation, but in the Klingon version the words are different each time.
I think that the point Okrand was trying to make is that Klingons do not know, or deny, the concept of fear. Instead, they only know how to scare others:
ghIj
A Klingon can express his/her ability to scare others but not to experience fear, it is as such not a concept.
A Klingon can express her/her ability to be scared (to experience fear):
choghIj
-
You scared me
(I was scared of you)
mughIj romuluSngan tIn
-
The big Romulan scared m
e (I was scared by the big Romulan)
They can also express fear of an action:
vIHoHvIp
-
I am afraid to kill him
Duj qan vI'elvIp
-
I am afraid to enter the old ship
Most Klingon's consider it taboo to use
-vIp
with a first person subject (and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar taboo with
ghIj
and first person object).
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
QoghtlhIH'u'
Old Guard
Lettered Veteran
Offline
Posts: 229
qaStaH nuq? toqDuj vImojchoH?
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #22 on:
10 28, 2010, 04:02: AM »
Well qurgh, I considered the construction
vI-...-vIp
to be ungrammatical.
Sure, fear can be expressed using
ghIj
meaning to scare, but as a concept as such fear is simply not defined in the Klingon language. That was my point.
Now, if you have to translate a non Klingon text into Klingon it will be necessary to use constructions with
ghIj
, as much as you have to work your way around translating the Dutch word 'gezellig' into some English word depending on the context, because there is no one to one translation.
The Klingon language is the language of people who deny the possibilty of experiencing fear themselves, among other things. That is peculiar to their way of communicating.
Although if we look at the canonical examples from The Klingon Way:
vay' DaghIjlaHchugh bIHoSghaj.
Fear is power.
not qoHpu''e' neH ghIjlu'.
Only fools have no fear.
ghIj qet jaghmeyjaj.
May you enemies run with fear.
jaghmeylI' DaghIjjaj qetjaj jaghmeylI'.
May you scare your enemies, may your enemies run.
it is in
Only fools have no fear
Klingons admit that it is possible to be scared, presumably by an enemy that is more fierce.
Logged
qurgh_
Klingon Conversationalist
Offline
Posts: 166
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #23 on:
10 28, 2010, 11:26: AM »
Quote from: QoghtlhIH'u' on 10 28, 2010, 04:02: AM
Well qurgh, I considered the construction
vI-...-vIp
to be ungrammatical.
Sure, fear can be expressed using
ghIj
meaning to scare, but as a concept as such fear is simply not defined in the Klingon language. That was my point.
Now, if you have to translate a non Klingon text into Klingon it will be necessary to use constructions with
ghIj
, as much as you have to work your way around translating the Dutch word 'gezellig' into some English word depending on the context, because there is no one to one translation.
vI-/-vIp
is completely grammatical, in fact Okrand specifically says that in TKD:
Quote
This suffix is rarely used with a prefix meaning I or we. Though it is grammatically correct, it is culturally taboo.
Klingon does have a way to express the concept of fear. They may not have a noun for the emotion, but that's the same as many emotions in Klingon. They don't have nouns for love, caring, hatred, disgust, happiness, sadness, depression, etc. Most of these are expressed with verbs instead, just like
ghIj
and fear. It's not that it's missing, it's just different from how humans express emotions. If you can get the concept from one mind to another then the language contains the necessary concepts.
Klingon doesn't have the concept of cars or lawnmowers in it, but it defiantly has the concept of fear (
ghIj/-vIp
). All your phrases from the Klingon Way actually show that Klingons completely understand the concept of fear, know how to talk about it
and
how to use it as an effective tool in battles.
Logged
qurgh HoD, lungqIj tuq
Custom Klingon T-Shirts
|
Follow me on Twitter
|
tlhIngan Hol 'ampaS
|
Install pIqaD on Windows
tesseraktik
Klingon formerly Known as Fraek
Discoursing Diplomat
Online
Posts: 288
In order to succeed, you must enjoy eating poison!
Re: Litany Against Fear
«
Reply #24 on:
11 10, 2010, 01:00: PM »
Quote from: QoghtlhIH'u' on 10 26, 2010, 10:08: AM
By the way, tesseraktik, what did you do to fraek? Is he assimilated or something?
Assimilated? No; just adapted
Quote from: qurgh_ on 10 28, 2010, 11:26: AM
Quote from: QoghtlhIH'u' on 10 28, 2010, 04:02: AM
Well qurgh, I considered the construction
vI-...-vIp
to be ungrammatical.
vI-/-vIp
is completely grammatical, in fact Okrand specifically says that in TKD:
Quote
This suffix is rarely used with a prefix meaning I or we. Though it is grammatically correct, it is culturally taboo.
One wonders if the taboo also applies to -
vIpbe'
(not afraid). It would appear that it doesn't, as there are three instances of it (or, rather, two instances of -
vIpbe'
and one of -
vIpqu'be'
) on page 49 of TKD, along with explanations of how they might be used.
Logged
Pages:
[
1
]
« previous
next »
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Forum Etiquette, News & Announcements
-----------------------------
=> Rules and Regulations: The Forum Etiquette & Posting Guidelines (MUST READ BEFORE POSTING)
=> Forum News & Announcements
===> Returning Members Must Read in Order to Sign In
=> Forum Feedback
-----------------------------
General Discussions
-----------------------------
=> The Reception Hall
=> General Discussions
=> Klingon News
===> Klingon Events & Activities
=====> Convention Reports and Reviews
=====> Invitations to Events (Open to All)
=====> Blood Drives
=====> Other
===> Klingon Community News
===> Klingons in the News
===> The Comics Section
-----------------------------
Klingon Language & Culture
-----------------------------
=> Klingon Ceremonies, Rituals & Traditions
===> Ceremonies & Traditions: General Questions & Discussion
===> Matters of Family, Line, and House
===> Klingon Religion and Spirituality
===> Warriors’ Rites & Traditions
=> Klingon Language
===> Requests for Translations
===> General Language Discussion in English
===> Conversation in thlIngan Hol only
=> Klingon Religion & Beliefs
=> Klingon Social Studies
-----------------------------
Klingon Arts and Media
-----------------------------
=> Klingon Arts and Music
===> Klingon Art and Artwork
===> Klingon Music and Lyrics
=> Klingon Poetry and Short Stories
===> Klingon Poetry
===> Klingon Short Stories
=> The Inspirational Media Room: Klingon-related Books, TV & Movies
===> Classics of Klingon Literature
===> Klingons on Television
===> Klingons on the Big Screen
-----------------------------
Other Klingon-related Topics
-----------------------------
=> The Klingon Kitchen
=> The Klingon Game Room
===> Klin Zha
===> RPGs and Sims
=====> Empire of Warriors RPG(Retired)
=====> Fall of the Hurq
=====> The Recruiting Center
===> Klingon and Star Trek computer games
=> The Klingon Science Lab
===> Klingon Biology & Physiology
===> Klingon Technology and Engineering
===> Stellar Sciences
=> The Klingon Marketplace
-----------------------------
Klingon Guilds
-----------------------------
=> Klingon Imperial Costumers Guild
===> Uniforms & Tunics
===> Pins, Jewelry & Badges
===> Props, Accessories & Footwear
===> Make-up & Headpieces
=> Klingon Webmasters Guild
===> Introduce Your Website
===> Web Design Questions
===> Software Reviews & Recommendations
===> Designing for Accessibility
=> Klingon Programmers Guild
=> Klingon Line Registry
===> Post your family line history
===> House and family alliances and adoptions
===> Places to promote your house, family, and line
===> General house & family line discussions