Word for "Sweet?"

[Browncoatone]

My efforts to compose a love poem in Klingon I have hit a wall: There appears to be no word for "Sweet" in Klingon. Specifically I'm looking for a Klingonese translation for the term "Sweet Nothing"- as in 'He whispered sweet nothings into her ear'. Is there a way to modify the Klingon word for "sugar" to fit my intended meaning?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[tesseraktik]

There is wIbHa':  Be the opposite of bitter/sour/tart, which should work quite nicely.

You could also try coining the term yuch paghmey, "chocolate:y nothings", although the singular yuch pagh might be interpreted by some as "none of the chocolate".  You might be able to get around this by calling it yuch paghoy; "dear chocolate-nothing".  You could also try yuch Dap mu'mey; "chocolate:y nonsense-words".

Then there's the Q A; B rur, meaning "A Q:s; it resembles B", or "A Q:s like B".  For instance:  'ey paghoymey; yuch rur. ("the dear nothings are delicios in the same way that chocolate is delicious")

'ey Dap tlhupbogh; yuch rur. mumay'moH paghoymey wIbHa'. - The whispered nonsense is delicious like chocolate.  The sweet dear-nothings drive me wild.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Isn't Sweet a very un-Klingon concept?

We can't just try to translate anything we think of in the Klingon language without regard of what it means to be Klingon.

That being said I realize that sometimes alien (from the Klingon point of view) races might want to communicate with Klingons and therefore they would have to try to thwart/squash/tweak/convert their very non-Klingon concepts into the Klingon language. I suppose that that is what Browncoatone is trying to do.

[Browncoatone]

"Savor the Fruit of Life my young friends. It has a sweet taste when it is fresh from the vine, but don't live too long, the taste turns bitter after a time" -Kor, son of Rynar

I think Kor would disagree with you. Though it is unfortunate that his words were not recorded in tlhIngan Hol.

[qurgh_]

Here's what Klingon for the Galactic Traveler says about Klingon's and sensing flavors:

Klingon food also frequently tastes wIb (“sour, bitter”) or na’ (“salty, brackish”). The closest equivalent to “sweet” is probably na’ran rur (“resembles a naran,” a fruit whose juice is sometimes added to sauces as a contrast to the other flavors.) Interestingly, many human visitors seem to really enjoy the juice of the naran all by itself, particularly in the morning, though Klingons find this practice most peculiar. Despite the general absence of sweet foods from their diet, Klingons tend to be quite enthusiastic about yuch (“chocolate”), at least in its purest forms. The usual Federation Standard translations of the primary tastes (“pungent,” “sour,” “salty”) are a little deceptive. From the Klingon point of view, it is not accurate to say that a particular food is sour; rather, it tastes and smells sour. That is, sourness is not an intrinsic quality of the food; it is a perception, the effect the food has upon the senses of smell and taste, the Klingon sense of smell  being particularly highly developed.

[tesseraktik]

Interesting.  So, I guess our primary ways of saying "sweet nonsense" is na'ran rur Dap'e' - "nonsense which resembles na'ran"
Is there a construction that would allow us to say "it tastes like na'ran"?  I'm thinking Dap mumlu'; na'ran rur. ("The nonsense is tasted; it resembles na'ran."), but that deviates from the familiar Q A; B rur formula.
However, even if one doesn't quite work, one can use sentences that communicate similar meanings.  For instance:  paghoymeyDaj vImum. na'ran (lu)rur. - "I taste/scent his/her dear-nothings; they resemble na'ran."

One oculd try 'ey Dap; na'ran rur. {The nonsense is delicious in a way that resembles na'ran.}, but as qurgh points out, this may not be an all that positive notion to a Klingon; even if they'r enot entirely opposed to sweetness, na'ran on its own is quite distasteful.  Comparing the nothings/nonsense to yuch (chocolate) may be a better idea.

• 'ey Dap; yuch rur. - The nonsense is as delicious as chocolate.
• Dap 'ey law'; yuch 'ey law'. - The nonsense is as delicious as chocolate, which in turn is very delicious!
  Note: The "A Q law'; B Q law'."-construction is usually only used to compare things which are similar, such as when comparing the tastes of two dishes or the strengths of two weapons.  However, it doesn't appear to be a strict rule, and I'm sure one can make exceptions for poetry.
• Dap mu'meyDaj 'ey law'pu'; HIq Doq puSpu'.  muchechmoHpu'. - His/Her nonsense-words were
  Note:  Not quite sure if one can really conjugate this expression in this way.
  

Of course, one can take some lease for artistic reasons.  Perhaps the sweet nothings are an unsavory pleasure; they're too sweet to be palatable, but that's part of the thrill!
jIHvaD paghoymey tlhupta'. Dan mu'meyDaj 'up; na'ran rurpu'. vItIvchu'pu'. - He/She whispered dear-nothings to me.  Unsavory nonsense-words; they were like na'ran.  I enjoyed it/them thoroughly.

As for whether or not Klingons like sweet things, Worf once mentioned that he liked his bloodwine "very young, and very sweet".  Of course, he was raised in the Federation...  ...and perhaps Klingons have different standards as to what counts as "sweet".

[Browncoatone]

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong direction. The term I want to translate is "Sweet Nothings":

Sweet Nothings
pl.n.
Endearments addressed to a lover.

So I guess it has nothing to do with 'tasting' at all. So...

If the word for love is 'bang'

and the word for endearment or pet name is 'bang pong'

would 'Sweet Nothings' in Klingon be 'bang pongmey'?

[QoghtlhIH'u']

na'ran is obviously derived from naranja (una fruto citrica), orange

bang pongmey would mean pet names

Have you seen this page on kli.org ?

http://www.kli.org/wiki/index.php?Love

As is said elsewhere on this forum, translating from one language to the other, even very closely related ones such as English, Dutch and German, can be very difficult for some words and phrases. For instance, there is a word in Dutch for Sweet nothings but it is hardly ever used, so if I would use the word in a conversation my audience would look at me strangely and ask me what I mean.



Maybe Fraek can tell us what the Swedish term for Sweet nothings is, if it exists at all.

[tesseraktik]

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong direction. The term I want to translate is "Sweet Nothings":
So I guess it has nothing to do with 'tasting' at all. So...

Well, I don't think it's "wrong", per se; we use the term metaphorically, and Klingons are certainly not entirely opposed to metaphors (their culture is full of burning hearts and singing blood, after all).  However, if I were to use a taste metaphor, I think I'd focus on the deliciousness of it all (the almost definitely positive part), rather than the sweetness (the very questionably positive part).

I might recommend bang mu'mey, or lover's words.  The meaning of that would probably be interpreted a less melodic form of bang bommey, or love songs.  You might also try bang Dap ("lover's nonsense"), but in that case you should make sure that it's marked by context as a positive thing, as Klingons don't tend to look kindly on nonsense.

By the way, does anybody know in what context Dap bommey ("nonsense songs") are used?  Is this a pejorative term, or are there good nonsense songs?

As is said elsewhere on this forum, translating from one language to the other, even very closely related ones such as English, Dutch and German, can be very difficult for some words and phrases. For instance, there is a word in Dutch for Sweet nothings but it is hardly ever used, so if I would use the word in a conversation my audience would look at me strangely and ask me what I mean.

Maybe Fraek can tell us what the Swedish term for Sweet nothings is, if it exists at all.

That, I can!  Edit:  Actually, no I can't; the closest thing I can think of is "ljuva ord" ("lovely words") or "ömma ord" ("tender words"), but they're not very good translations.  What follows is a bunch of words that might be translated as "sweet".
As you suggest, the concept doesn't translate perfectly:  The word for sweet, as in "it tastes sweet", is söt (there's also an adverb, sött).  It can be used in a positive, metaphoric sense, bt it only covers a subset of the connotations that I feel the word sweet has.  Specifically, it carries a friendly meaning, but not much of a romantic or passionate one (kisses aren't described as söta); it means something like cute or adorable, and is mostly used to describe friends, pets and objects.  It's mostly used to describe somebody's looks or general manner, and is seldom used to describe abstract things.
There's also the word gullig (adjective gulligt) which means much the same thing as söt (except for in taste; there's nothing that tastes gulligt).  It's perhaps more focused on manner than looks; I might tell a girl "Vad söt du är!" if she puts on a nice hat, but "Vad gullig du är!" if she offers to help me clean up.  I say "a girl", as I'm male and it's less common for males to use this to describe other males to their faces (although this practice is on the rise). However, it's very common for them to use them in describing other males to others; some strange macho-thing, I guess.
The word snäll (adv. snällt) means something like "kind, nice".  It's very often used adverbially.  When used as an adjective, it's mostly used to describe humans, but it can also be used for abstract things to some extent; en snäll sak att säga = a kind thing to say.  However, vänlig (adv. vänligt) - friendly - is more common in this sense; kind words is usually translated as vänliga ord, not snälla ord.
Another common translation of the word sweet is rar (adv. rart), which is some sort of combination between snäll and söt; somebody who's kind in a cute way may be called rar.  It carries a tone of innocence or good-spirited naïveté, and is often used to describe babies, or for socially awkward people who aren't really actively kind (because they are shy or don't know what is considered to be kind) but who are generally selfless (and naïvely expect everybody else to be, as well).

Now, to the translation of sweet which I feel is best suited to this situation:  ljuv (adv. ljuvt)
This means something like pleasant, pleasurable, wonderful, lovely, and something which is ljuv can really inspire emotion.  It carries a poetic tone, and is very often used to describe classical music (the phrase ljuv musik carries much the same metaphorical meaning as the English "sweet music to my ears") or scents, as well as in a romantic context:  Few foods would be described as ljuva, but your lover's lips certainly might, as may love itself.  I don't actually know how I'd translate "sweet nothings", but if I were to describe a lover's words that were whispered in my ear, ljuva would be the word I use to describe them.

Some examples:

• Den söta karamellen smakar sött. - "The sweet piece of candy tastes sweetly."
• Vad söt du är i den där klänningen! - "You look so cute in that dress!"
• Vad gullig du är som hjälper mig! - "You're so sweet to help me out!"
• Det var snällt sagt av dig! - "How sweet of you to say!
• Det var en väldigt snäll sak att säga! - "That was a very sweet thing to say!"
• En sådan rar liten gosse! - "What a sweet young boy!"
• Du är väldigt rar, men... - "You're very sweet, but..."
• Ljuvaste Dröm, av Doris Lessing. - "The Sweetest Dream, by Doris Lessing"

Of course, there are many more words with similar meanings in both Swedish and English; translation is a many-to-many relation.  To add to that, language varies from speaker to speaker; many would probably use gullig where I might use söt, or rar where I might use snäll.
Unfortunately, it's hard to get a good grip of what words most Klingons use in different situations, as the canonical corpus is quite small, and we can't consult any real Klingons on the subject (not without bogging down Marc Okrand's e-mail inbox, anyway).  We really just have to go by what feels right to us and other Klingonists.

I've actually just started work on a language the main purpose of which is to discuss emotions...  ...but which does not have equivalents to many of the words that we are used to, such as "love" or "sorry".  The idea is that in order to tell somebody you love them, or that you're sorry for something, you have to explain what that means, making insincerity more difficult and forcing you to analyze your own emotions (much as tlhIngan Hol forces us to ask ourselves what it is we mean when we say "Hello!").  Similar attempts have been made in the past, and I see no reason why I should be successful where others have failed, but I'm certain that just giving it a shot will prove educational. ;)

[qurgh_]

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong direction. The term I want to translate is "Sweet Nothings":

Sweet Nothings
pl.n.
Endearments addressed to a lover.

Based on that I would translate it the same way Browncoatone did:

bang mu'mey - lover's words

"Sweet nothings" is an English idiom, it's not going to be possible to translate it directly. All you can do is translate the meaning.

By the way, does anybody know in what context Dap bommey ("nonsense songs") are used?  Is this a pejorative term, or are there good nonsense songs?

I don't know where Dap bommey would be used, but I did write one long ago:

wejmaH yIH SuD
teppa'Daq ba'taH
jawtaH 'ej SeptaH
'ej tIr lam luSop

(Thirty green/blue/yellow tribbles, sitting in the cargo room, chatting and breeding, and eating dirty grain.)

I would suggest that "good nonsense songs" would be subjective. Some people may think they are good, while others think they are a pile are targh droppings. Each to their own.

[qoSagh]

As others have said, direct translations are impossible. This is because Sweet is being used metaphorically but that metaphor is entirely dependent on the human perception of sweet as a pleasant experience.

First we would need to know if Klingons can taste sweet, and then if so do they find it pleasant. Based on the quote about Na'ran I wold say that Klingons can tastes this but do not find it entirely pleasant. So sweet nothings might well be an unpleasant term and not something said between lovers. Even if we assume a certain pleasantness, we are still asking Klingons to understand the concept of words that are kind of orange flavored. The metaphor when translated as a concept still does not convey the right meaning.

Now the more important word to me is nothings, as this implies that the words are of minor importance possibly even meaningless. This would pose a problem for Klingons as they do not engage in small talk, and do not say things that have no use. Going back to Klinonasse (which BTW would have been Kor's language not tlhIngan Hol) language is a tool, and a Klingon would not use a tool foolishly. Klingons speak to get a point across, therefore if speaking would be pointless, a Klingon simply would not do it.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Very well said qoSagh!

And besides, Kor's quote did not include the phrase "sweet nothings". 
Still I think that anything that has been "officially" said by a Klingon should be translateable into thlIngan Hol. I'll give it a try and get back with it.

[qoSagh]

No Kor was not speaking romantically, however it is reasonably clear that he meant to use Sweet to mean a pleasing condition. So perhaps the best way to translate both uses of sweet, would be to say pleasing. In the case of Sweet Nothings, perhaps what we are looking for are words that are pleasing but inconsequential.

As for anything said officially being translatable into tlhIngan Hol, we have to remember that the language in question was not official itself until many years after the quote was spoken. So there would be no such requirement. TKD itself says there are different languages and dialects within language among Klingons. Although to translate that quote would run into the same barrier we have been discussing in this thread. So until this is settled, that might just be a fools errand.

[qurgh_]

It should be translatable.

In order to build up his vocabulary, Okrand went back to every TOS episode and translated anything spoken by a Klingon.

[tesseraktik]

It should be translatable.

In order to build up his vocabulary, Okrand went back to every TOS episode and translated anything spoken by a Klingon.

Aye, but the line above is from a DS9-episode ("Once More Unto the Breach...").
However, I interpreted QoghtlhIH'u''s statement as meaning "I would like to believe - for strictly ideological reasons - that everything canonically said by Klingons can be translated with some ease into tlhIngan Hol.", rather than "Logic dictates that everything ever canonically said by Klingons can be translated with some ease into tlhIngan Hol using the resources that are available to us."  I tend to agree with the former; any concept that a typical Klingon would like to express should be expressable with some ease in tlhIngan Hol (although not necessarily using only the resources we have access to).

Anyhow, perhaps he actually said 'ey {delicious} and 'up {unsavory}, and the universal translator* in our television sets simply translated this to "sweet" and "bitter" because these words would better convey the power of his words.  After all, if it fails to convert Klingon themes into anglophonic Human themes, we might be unable to appreciate his eloquence.  I often notice when watching world leaders or the like talk that my perception of the speakers is heavily affected by their translators; if the translator sounds unsure of his-/herself, then I'll perceive the speaker as unsure of his-/herself, and if the translator has a limited vocabulary or makes a lot of grammatical mistakes I'll ask myself if the speaker is a bit dense, even though he/she is probably very eloquent in his/her own language.
I'm sure that's not what the writers had in mind, but we've gotta do our best to correct their mistakes ;)

...or perhaps Kor was just a really weird Klingon who happened to like na'ran!


*...or rather, the "alien-language-to-English translator" ;)

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Yes, Fraek, I meant it in the "strictly ideological reasons .." sort of way 
Whoever wrote the script of whatever movie or tv-episode, Klingons are meant to be Klingons by any writer. Everything any Klingon says is said from a Klingon mindset. tlhIngan Hol is supposed to be a vehicle for that mindset.

Great concept: the universal translator in our tv sets!
One of the Great Futuristic Inventions: Warp Drive, Holodeck, Time Machine, Beaming (how is that technology called?)....

[Qunchuy]

Great concept: the universal translator in our tv sets!

On occasion, certain Klingon words and phrases are heard in Klingon instead of being turned into English (or whatever) by the Universal Translator. I have long believed that the reason for this is that the actors' pronunciation is so bad that not even the UT can figure out what they're supposed to be saying.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

. I have long believed that the reason for this is that the actors' pronunciation is so bad that not even the UT can figure out what they're supposed to be saying.

I was in an offical setting once in the European Youth Centre, Strasbourg, France, with young people from all over Europe. We had professional translation from English to French vice versa.
All participants except the French were supposed to know English and the one Italian girl also knew French.

We could see the lady translators sitting behind glass windows doing their translating. Then this guy from Ireland started saying something and all of us could see that the translator who obviously had to translate from English to French looked very bewildered and took of her headphones.
... No, Mick (his actual name) was not speaking Irish, but just some very local accent...

The chairperson had to ask Mick to speak more slowly and clearly.

[El Payaso Malo]

I have long believed that the reason for this is that the actors' pronunciation is so bad that not even the UT can figure out what they're supposed to be saying.

My theory is that most of the Klingons shown are from some backwards, hick toilet part of the Empire, which would explain their bizarre pronunciation and syntax; and that the reason some of it is left untranslated is because the universal translator only works when someone wants to be understood, since its technology all ready reads brain waves to sense intent of meaning, it simply also senses a willingness to be translated.

We could see the lady translators sitting behind glass windows doing their translating. Then this guy from Ireland started saying something and all of us could see that the translator who obviously had to translate from English to French looked very bewildered and took of her headphones.
... No, Mick (his actual name) was not speaking Irish, but just some very local accent...

Man, I almost thought you were making an ethnic slur there!