The Internationale

[Kaz Son of Maktan]

I am currently learning the rousing song, The Internationale, in English as well as Spanish in honor of the rights of workers and unions,
and I formally request, brothers and sisters, if you may help me translate these lyrics into tlhingan Hol.

Arise, you prisoners of starvation!
Arise, you wretched of the earth!
For justice thunders condemnation:
There's a better world in birth!

No more tradition's chains shall bind us,
Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!
The earth shall rise on new foundations:
We have been nought, we shall be all!
  '
Tis the final conflict,
  Let each stand in his place.
  The international working class
  Shall be the human race!

To be sure, instead of "human race", we need "Klingon race"

Please help at your earliest convenience!
 

[tesseraktik]

Ah, I love that song, although I usually sing it in French (one of the few songs I know in that language)...  ...but of course, it would be great to have it in Klingon, and I'll gladly help with the translation.

I don't have much time right now, but for the time being, I'll post the French and Swedish versions of the song, along with direct English translations.  That way, if somebody is having trouble expressing one of the English sentences, they can see how the corresponding sentence was expressed in another language, and draw upon it for inspiration.  You may want to do the same with the Spanish version.

French lyrics (from Wikipedia): Debout, les dam.nés de la terre Debout, les forçats de la faim La raison tonne en son cratère C'est l'éruption de la fin Du passé faisons table rase Foule esclave, debout, debout Le monde va changer de base Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout |: C'est la lutte finale Groupons-nous, et demain L'Internationale Sera le genre humain :|

. . .

English translation (from Wikipedia): Arise, wretched of the earth Arise, convicts of hunger Reason thunders in its crater This is the eruption of the end Of the past let us wipe the slate clean Enslaved masses, arise, arise The world is about to change its foundation We are nothing, let us be all |: This is the final struggle Let us group together, and tomorrow The Internationale Will be the human race :|

Swedish lyrics (from Wikipedia): Upp trälar uti alla stater, som hungern bojor lagt uppå. Det dånar uti rättens krater, snart skall utbrottets timma slå. Störtas skall det gamla snart i gruset. Slav stig upp för att slå dig fri. Från mörkret stiga vi mot ljuset, från intet allt vi vilja bli. |: Upp till kamp emot kvalen! Sista striden det är, ty Internationalen åt alla lycka bär. :|

English translation (mine): Up, thralls in all states upon whom hunger has placed shackles. It thunders throughout the crater of justice, soon the hour of eruption shall strike. The old shall soon be brought down into the gravel. Slave, rise up in order to fight yourself free. From the darkness we rise towards the light, från nothing we wish to become everything. |: To batlle against anguish! The final stuggle it is, for the Internationale bears happiness for all.

[qurgh_]

Well here's my first stab at it:

peQam, ghungtaHghach qama' tlhIH
peQam, yuQ tullaHbe'wI' tlhIH
qIchtaHghach SuvtaH ruv
tugh mup jorwI' poH.

nujon lurDech mIrmey 'e' wIchaw'be'
peQam, toy'wI''a'pu'. petoy'Qo'taH!
Daq Hurghvo' Daq wovDaq wIghoS.
pagh maHpu', DaH Hoch maHchoH.

may' Qav 'oH,
  DaqDajDaq Qamjaj Hoch nuv.
  tlhIngan Segh 'oH
  qIb vumtaHwI''e'

Stand, You are prisoners of hunger
Stand, You are the planet's hopeless
Justice fights condemnation
Soon the explosive time will strike

We will not permit traditions chains to capture us
Stand, slaves. Do not continue to serve!
We go from the dark area to the light area
We were nothing, now we will become all.

It is the final battle,
  May each person stand in his location.
  The galaxy workers
  Are the Klingon race.

I used bits of both the original English version and the English translation of the French/Swedish version.

[qoSagh]

Interesting project. I like the method of looking at various English translations.

I wonder about how Klingon a song this is however, in that Klingons are if nothing else very traditional. I do not see traditions as the proverbial chains that bind.

I am also interested to see that the English version uses the word Starvation while the English translations use the word Hunger. I wonder if these are not slightly different concepts, that might be translated differently?

[qurgh_]

The song is full of socialist ideas, some of which mesh with the Klingon mindset while others don't.

Starvation is just continued hunger (to the point where it may cause death). I think the idea in the song is that someone else (the man) can cause the hunger/starvation, so the people aren't really starving. They just know that if they stand up, the powers at be can cut off their food and lead to their starvation, hence they are prisoners of hunger/starvation.

[Kaz Son of Maktan]

Wow! Thank you all for the discussion and thank you so much, qurgh, for the lightspeed translation!
Qatlho'! (The Internationale is quite suited to Klingons considering they represented the Eastern powers of the Cold War,
but also I would imagine this would be most fitting as a rallying cry for the Klingon race when they rose up against the Hurq!)
Also, as per Fraek's request: here is one of many Spanish versions for any Spanish speaking Klingon's out there:

SPANISH-

    LA INTERNACIONAL

Arriba, parias de la Tierra.
En pie, famélica legión.
Los proletarios gritan: Guerra!
Hasta el fin de la opresión.

Borrad rastros del pasado!
Arriba, esclavos, todos en pié!
el mundo va a cambiar de base,
los nada de hoy todo han de ser.

Agrupémonos todos,
en la lucha final.
El género humano
es la internacional.

[qurgh_]

Wow! Thank you all for the discussion and thank you so much, qurgh, for the lightspeed translation!
Qatlho'!

qay'be'. Hamlet muchlIj vItIvqu'. latlh tlhIngan muchmey DachenmoH 'e' vItul.

I'm glad I could help. I loved your Hamlet piece! I hope you get a chance to produce more Klingon works in the future.

[tesseraktik]

Dang, you're fast, qurgh

I've also stabbed at it, although I've focused more on rhyme and syllables than on the original meaning (I personally prefer alliteration to rhyme when it comes to Klingon, but I figured I'd try to preserve the ABAB structure).  Initially I also tried to get something that mirrored the original French lyrics phonetically...  ...but quickly had to give up on that idea, as the translation was difficult enough to complete, anyway
Also, I treated l'Internationale as a loan word (as I've seen this be done in some translations, and as I feel it refers to a very specific concept that one can't really translate), and so have transcribed it rather than translated it.

Klingon lyrics: peHu', Hoch yuQmey toy'wI''a'pu'. peHu', ghungtaHghach qama'pu'. matlhab luDI' jajvam pIn'a'pu'. QapmeH wa'leS, lu wa'Hu'. nItebHa' Dol nIvDaq maghobchugh, jegh jagh negh 'ej Haw' chuQun. Qatlhqu'bej tIghmaj, vaj maQuchqu': bommey Dun qotlh ta'mey Dun. may'vaD Qav yIrach'egh Hoch. batlh Qamchugh tlhIH maH je vaj tugh Hoch qIb Segh moj lenterna'cho'na'le'.

English translation: Stand up, all planets' thralls. Stand up, prisoners of enduring hunger. We are free as soon as today's masters fall. So that tomorrow succeeds, yesterday falls. If we wage war together in a greater whole, our enemy's soldiers will surrender and the royalty will flee. Our way is definitely dfficult, so we are very happy: Great deeds warrant great songs! All, stregthen yourselves for the final battle. If you all and we stand with honor then soon l'Internationale becomes every race in the galaxy.

As for qoSagh's question:  The Klingons that would sing this are likely ones who are not fond of the status quo, so they would certainly have something of an "out with the old, in with the new" attitude.  That being said, they might certainly argue that "the new" is in fact based on the traditions that "the old" has strayed from.
Anyhow, this wouldn't be a song for all Klingons to sign; it is quite specifically only for the ones that sympathize with the ideas presented in this song (however they choose to interpret them), or who wish to show solidarity with one or several of the movements that have made this song their anthem.  Therefore, it's not necessarily a problem that the song wouldn't appeal to all Klingons (it certainly doesn't appeal to all Humans, after all).

Regarding starvation/hunger, I agree with qurgh.  However, it might be pointed out that the original French lyrics use faim, which is the word they usually use to express everyday hunger of the non-lethal variety (as in J'ai faim - I-have hunger - "I am hungry.").
It can also be pointed out that in English, the word starvation is often associated with the verb starve, which is sometimes transitive ("The wicked king starves the people.") and sometimes not ("The wicked king starves").  The same goes for the Swedish word svält, which is associated with the sometimes transitive, sometimes intransitive verb svälta ("Den elake kungen svälter folket." vs. "Den elake kungen svälter.").  For that reason, I think that when you use starvation/svält as opposed to hunger/hunger, you suggest that the enduring hunger may be consciously inflicted by somebody, as opposed to just being an unfortunate circumstance; it implies not just poor fortune, but also malice, which can help when you want to rally people.
To my knowledge, this is harder to do in French; they do have the word la famine, which suggests something more dire than la faim, and then there's always mourir de faim ("die of hunger", as in "Le méchant roi meurt de faim."), but none of those is really closer than the others to the transitive verb affamer (as in "Le méchant roi affamer la population.").
In Klingon, an intransitive verb is made transitive by use of the -choH-suffix.  I suppose perhaps one could distinguish between ghung (hunger) and ghungmoHghach (the act of causing hunger).

Also, like qurgh, I loved your presentation of Hamlet's soliloquy and hope you'll keep enriching Klindom

[qurgh_]

Nice translation. 

The only comment I can make is I wonder if Hu' is the correct verb to use in this case. It's the opposite of leS (to relax), so to me peHu' would be something a Klingon mother yells at her children to get them out of bed in the morning.  Not saying it's wrong, just wondering which would more accurate: Hu' or Qam.

I also usually translate songs so that they scan correctly, but I don't know this song so I had no frame of reference.

[tesseraktik]

Nice translation. 

Thanks

The only comment I can make is I wonder if Hu' is the correct verb to use in this case. It's the opposite of leS (to relax), so to me peHu' would be something a Klingon mother yells at her children to get them out of bed in the morning.  Not saying it's wrong, just wondering which would more accurate: Hu' or Qam.

Hmm, yes, I was wondering abou thtat, too, actually; chose Hu' for the sake of phonetics (Debout - peHu'), but I suspect Qam really is the better choice; better safe than sorry!

I also usually translate songs so that they scan correctly, but I don't know this song so I had no frame of reference.

Ah, well then, it's high time to get acquainted with it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB5x6cDMjao
One can say what one will about the ta'mey (deeds) involed, but dang, this is a bom Dun (great song)

[Qunchuy]

majQa' Fraek!

I'll echo the preference for Qam stand instead of Hu' get up, which doesn't seem to imply the strength or resolve warranted here. I also have some grammatical comments on the chorus.

may'vaD Qav yIrach'egh Hoch. batlh Qamchugh tlhIH maH je vaj tugh Hoch qIb Segh moj lenterna'cho'na'le'.

All, stregthen yourselves for the final battle. If you all and we stand with honor then soon l'Internationale becomes every race in the galaxy.

When you use a verb in the manner of an adjective, as you've done with Qav be final in the first line, any Type 5 noun suffixes go on the verb instead of on the noun it modifies. This would have to be may' QavvaD for the final battle.

Verbs bearing the reflexive suffix -'egh oneself always have a prefix indicating no object. Since rach'egh is referring to multiple people, the prefix needs to be pe- instead of yI-.

I'm tempted to leave Qamchugh tlhIH maH je alone for reasons best left mysterious, but proper grammar requires the verb prefix ma- we.

The glottal stops in the transliteration of l'Internationale are distracting, unnecessary, and in my opinion just plain wrong. If going for a French-like pronunciation, I'd render it lInternaSyonalle'.

[tesseraktik]

choquvmoHmo' choghojmoHmo' je SoHvaD jItlho'!
{ Because you honor me and also because you teach me, I am grateful towards you. }

When you use a verb in the manner of an adjective, as you've done with Qav be final in the first line, any Type 5 noun suffixes go on the verb instead of on the noun it modifies. This would have to be may' QavvaD for the final battle.

Daj. {Interesting.}
I noticed that when looking up the phrase wa' Dol nIvDaq maQap. {We succeed together in a greater whole.}, and know that they sing yo' qIjDaq {fleet black-in = in the Black Fleet} in the Warrior's Anthem, but wasn't sure if this was generally the rule; I'll make sure to keep this in mind in the future!

That being said, I'm thinking maybe -vaD shouldn't be used here at all, as the final battle isn't really the dative object here (or at least I know of no canon sources suggesting that it is), so perhaps the whole line should be replaced with something different.  To maintain a decent rhyme with the phrase Segh moj, I'm thinking maybe  may' yIQavmoH bogh jegh yoH {Make the battle the last, brave soldiers of virtue.}

Verbs bearing the reflexive suffix -'egh oneself always have a prefix indicating no object. Since rach'egh is referring to multiple people, the prefix needs to be pe- instead of yI-.

Quite true; Hoch can be either singular {everybody} or plural {all together}, but it's true that the plural sense of the word better communicates the sense of unity that the song encourages.

I'm tempted to leave Qamchugh tlhIH maH je alone for reasons best left mysterious, but proper grammar requires the verb prefix ma- we.

Aye, I wasn't quite sure what to do with this subject, as it's sort of "mixed" between the first and second person; a hypothetical union between you and us.  I like having the batlh there, but perhaps the ma- would do a better job communicating unity (the distiction between tlhIH and maH is rather unfortunate to begin with, but it's a sacrifice I made for the sake of rhyme).

The glottal stops in the transliteration of l'Internationale are distracting, unnecessary, and in my opinion just plain wrong. If going for a French-like pronunciation, I'd render it lInternaSyonalle'.

I can see why you'd think that.  The transliteration comes from singing this over and over again, and going with what I felt was the best compromise between pronunciation and melody, but it really depends greatly on how one arranges the piece (in my mind, the melody is altered in such a way that the song becomes more choppy, but there is of course a many-dimensional continuum of ways to arrange it), much the same way as French lyrics often contain unorthodox pronunciation for the sake of melody (for instance: voicing the silent e at the end of l'Internationale, or pronouncing gentille allouette "shawn-tiy ah-loo-eh-teh" rather than "shawn-tiy ah-loo-et", but then going back to "ah-loo-et" when in need of a three-syllable word that rhymes with "la tête").
I'd probably suggest lanter rather than lenter or lInter, but on the whole I think it's best to leave the transliteration up to whoever is arranging/performing the piece...  ...so perhaps we should simply change this to vaj tugh Hoch qIb Segh moj l'Internationale?

[qoSagh]

I still think something is needed to imply that the hunger in question is more or a dire circumstance and not merely an I need to get some lunch sort of thing. I actually think the solution is fairly simple, by using the -'a' suffix to augment the simple hunger of ghung. basically making ghung'a' a great hunger.

[Kaz Son of Maktan]

Also, like qurgh, I loved your presentation of Hamlet's soliloquy and hope you'll keep enriching Klindom

Dang! This a great language discussion going on! (One that I hope to research more when Ii find my copy of our dictionary!)
Many thanks to you, Fraek, for your translation as well! In regards to more Hamlet work, I do want to produce at least one more of the soliloquys...
Speaking of, in another thread I mentioned trying my hand at Klingon Macbeth. I have not the skill and time right now to translate one of his soliloquys,
namely the "Dagger of the Mind" one (Act 2 Scene 1). I know the KLI is working on a full translation, but of one of you great wordsmiths can round up
a succinct translation, I then there should be nothing stopping me going to work on a filmed version (with credits to you, of course). To that end,
there are some great sources on the meaning of Mackers, the best of which I believe in is Harold Bloom. If anyone wishes to take up the cause, I shall provide links and more info
on the Sottish Play.

[Qunchuy]

I actually think the solution is fairly simple, by using the -'a' suffix to augment the simple hunger of ghung. basically making ghung'a' a great hunger.

The augmentive suffix -'a' is a noun suffix. ghung be hungry is a verb. ghung'a' is a question: Is he hungry?

If you want to intensify the idea of being hungry, use the intensifying verb suffix -qu'. Does ghungqu'ghach being really hungry work for you?

[QoghtlhIH'u']

ghungqu'ghach   would mean "being really hungry-ness", or famine.

It is stretching the meaning of -ghach a little. I can imagine a few Klingonists frowning upon this suggestion.

[qoSagh]

I was thinking of Hunger as a noun and not as a verb, so that explains my suffix confusion. However, I think that hungry-ness is a state of being and the idea of that state being augmented maybe exactly the concept at hand. Although the words may not yet exist to convey it in tlhIngan Hol, there is little difference in being really hungry or being in a state of really hungry-ness.

I agree that this is a great discussion. While I am no tlhIngan linguist, I do enjoy looking at the overall concepts being translated and how they mesh (or fail to mesh) with the overall Klingon culture. Tat to me is at least as important as getting the actual words right.

[QoghtlhIH'u']

Well, perhaps ghungqu'ghach is the right choice in this context