"Wild West" of Kronos

[El Payaso Malo]

I was curious as to what kind of 'Wild West' or industrial revolution Kronos might have had. Klingon even has a word for gunpowder (ngat), and the thought of a time that Klingons may have used firearms such as revolvers and such excites me. Perhaps they used coal and steam at one point?

Does anyone want to take a crack at this?

[Klythe]

    Hmm...  This is an interesting question... We know that there is depending on what years you accept for various klingon events, a span of two or three centuries from the Time of Kahless to the invasion of the Hur'Iq...   The Time of Kahless is generally presented as a medieval time, though there is nothing to say that gunpowder didn't exist at the time of Kahless, whether it was used in firearms or as merely for fireworks and explosives, we can only guess...   My guess is that the Klingons did not have firearms at the time of Kahless, as it would have changed the dynamics of the important battles...  Primitive gunpowder explosives are not out of the question...   Also, after Kahless united the clans... There would have been a resumed Golden age where the clans co-operated... Gunpowder and firearms could have been discovered in between those two events, though, it need not be...  When the Hur'Iq invaded there would be many changes, by the time the Hur'Iq were overthrown, it's almost certain that the Klingons had learned to command the Hur'Iq's technology and use it against them, or else how could they be pursued and hunted?

    On the other paw it is entirely possible that the Klingons themselves skipped from medieval technology to Warp Technology, and only found out about gunpowered when they began to subjugete other worlds...  I'd argue that the only reason there is a word for gunpowder is the TOS Episode "A Private Little War", where a Klingon is shown to be teaching the Village People about firearm technology.

Wait... Why are you laughing?  No not those Village People, the ones on Neral..  the planet in the epsiode... Please try to say with me...  Okay... Fine... You can do the dance if you want to...  Ter'eS already translated the song for you...  No, I won't join you... I'll just wait untill you are finished...

[El Payaso Malo]

I had honestly forgotten that. I noticed that a lot of the initial vocabulary were things said in conversation in the original series by Klingons (or their enemies), like the Mugato. The only reason there is a Klingon word for Mugato is that the Mugato was in an episode with Klingons in it. I don't think that there is a Klingon word for bullet (but there is one for the broad term ammunition), probably because it wasn't mentioned in this (or other) original series episode concerned with Klingons.

The time of Kahless was around the Earth years 850 to 900, and all of the evidence suggests that Earth and Kronos had similar technology at that time. If Klingons did use firearms at one point, it is obvious that their medieval weapons stuck with them as an emulation of a time that most Klingons agree that things became good, a more extreme version of Old West enthusiasts or war reenactors (at least that's my take on it). While humans relegate their obsolete weapons to the sidelines, it seems Klingons use disruptors as a primary weapon in space age combat, but it would not be strange for one to use a bat'leth in battle (but a smaller, more concealable weapon would be more likely in a boarding situation). Conversely, it would be odd for a U.S. Marine to charge into battle armed with a claymore.

While it is possible (and probable!) that the Klingons took their space age technology from invaders, I hope that they managed that on their own (i.e. invented warp drive and THEN got invaded). Altough if they didn't have the technology when they were invaded, that says a lot for Klingon courage and skill if they took out their superiorly armed subjugators with primitive weapons (much like the Ewoks taking down the Galactic Empire, only more believable).

I wish Klingon social evolution had been explored in a canon source. It would have been very interesting. Plus, I find myself wondering what a Klingon locomotive would look like, and how they would design their handguns/revolvers (assuming they would make a barrel like that). Something tells me that they would have a blade at the end in case ammunition is depleted. Also, the thought of sark drawn carriages and battles on sarkback are pretty cool, too.

[Qunchuy]

Klingon even has a word for gunpowder (ngat),...

Actually, Klingon has a word for herbed granulated cartilage that has come to be used to mean gunpowder as well.

[El Payaso Malo]

Actually, Klingon has a word for herbed granulated cartilage that has come to be used to mean gunpowder as well.

I'm not familiar with it. Are you willing to share?

[Qunchuy]

Klingon for the Galactic Traveler explains that ngat means herbed granulated cartilage, and now also refers to gunpowder.

[El Payaso Malo]

Klingon for the Galactic Traveler explains that ngat means herbed granulated cartilage, and now also refers to gunpowder.

I see. Thanks. I hope to be getting that book soon!

[Klythe]

    No problem.  Klingons often live for the moment.  We do not focus on the past the same way humans do.  We have many stories but the times and details are often as if seen through the corner of the eye.

   Okay, are you sure you got enough dancing?  Here's a little more if you didn't...

    I've been working on (as well as way too many other projects) my own Star Trek timeline in a format that I hope will be easier for people to use without over loading them with too many events that they might not care for.  At least at first, I'm focusing on Klingon events, since well, Our history is superior to the Federation and the rest of the Galaxy, but also a small, yet complete subset of timeline data I wish to capture.

    My research so far indicates the Hur'Iq were defeated sometime during the Terrans' 13th or 14th Century.   We must assume they occupied qo'noS for some time before they were defeated, but probably not long enough that no one remembered what it was like to be free.  Given the lifespan of Klingons that could be up to 200 years.

    I actually kind of like the idea that Klingons did not discover warp from themselves.  It's clear that Klingons don't place the value on high technology that Terrans do(and most of the Federation for that matter).  I think it is this that explains it, that despite the vastly superior Hur'Iq technology, they still could defeat the Klingon heart.  In my mind's eye, I still see the Klingons as closer to medieval than industrial when the Hur'iQ came, but there is no reason the Klingons couldn't have advanced to early spaceflight, perhaps even warp...   But I don't see what would have driven to it.  Most technological advances are driven by curiosity and need.   Once the clans were united under Kahless, would there be wars to fight?   Sure there would be some disputes and feuds to settle, so there would be some battles, but there is no large enemy to war against.  Though that could be the motivation to get out into space...   But I 'd say it's highly unlikely they did, though FASA's timeline (which came out before TNG) has Kahless as the one who built the first orbital station, uniting the homeworld by threat of raining down death from the heavens.

[El Payaso Malo]

I find likely that at the time of Kahless, a Klingon's maximum life span was probably much more modest. Using humans as an example (I know that they are very different, but the physiology is similar enough to warrant a comparison), a human's life span in the middle ages was often less than 50 due to famine, pestilence, war, poor medicine and hygiene; ex cetera. As conditions improved, so did life spans. Now, average life spans (in the United States) are between 65 and 70. Present medicine considers it an impossibility to exceed the age of 130. In the world of Star Trek, there have been instances of a human living upwards of 137 (Bones) to even 145 (alternate reality Archer) due to improved conditions. I don't find it unimaginable that Klingons could have progressed similarly (at one point in a non-canon source, it is stated that Klingons live less than sixty years before dying of old age, although I do not remember the source (at any rate, I don't care much for non-canon, anyway)). Klingon medicine surely would have been focused on eradicating Klingons of infection and disease and anything else that would rob them of their honorable deaths, and would have ignored injuries (as that is from where their honorable deaths would come). That is probably why Klingon ships tend to lack sickbays. Klingon life spans of the twenty-fourth century seem to be between 25 and 50 do to their fierce lifestyles, but it seems reasonable that that is likely a trend that has followed Klingon history for millennia. This is just my speculation and I understand if you find it utterly ridiculous. I see your point. Why expand into space? There are no enemies there as far as we know and we have already killed our gods. Klingon aren't driven by a need to discover, but to fight and feed passion. The invaders would have been inspiration for a new outlet for the Klingons' inherent bloodlust. There are potential opponents beyond the stars? Arm yourselves and fire up the thrusters! I see most of Klingon technology going toward weaponry. I feel that they could have developed  projectile weapons, but I believe that they would be close range because Klingons tend to prefer that their identities are known and that the potential to receive blood splatter is desirable (with sayings like May the bile of the vanquished fill your hands, this doesn't seem like much of a stretch). So I could see an early Klingon shotgun or pistol, but a sniper rifle seems unlikely. But a jump from medieval to warp? That is also very interesting. I can only hope that these concepts might be explored in a later production. That's my take on it, anyway. 

[K'Voth]

Interesting for sure, i know that according to the TNG era book Kahless, the technological era could be compared to a pre industrial/feudal society, there is also mention of fights on the back of beasts (Utilised like horses, but i forget their names) so its entirely possible that there were firearms. Although (Again my memory is somewhat shaky on this and am happy to check) there was no mention of them, more along the lines of Long bows. As for maximum lifespan in modern Klingon's, the maximum does seem to be longer then their Terran counterparts, for warriors it seems that Klingon's make bad doctors, as the warrior should (I think this is either sourced from TNG or The IKS Gorkon books) either fight of the injury/illness on their own or perish in the endeavor. So i guess that would explain the similar level of life expectancy in the defence force, as for normal Klingon society i am not sure, I must admit though i do like the idea of a massive army vs army situation between rival houses

[qoSagh]

It is too our space ship, we didn't just find it!

OK, I too have heard the date of 840-900 (Terran) for the reign of Emperor Kahless, but I fail to see any evidence that Klingons were at the same technological level as humans at the same time. Both FASA and ENT have put Klingon technology moving at a faster pace than it's human counterparts. In Broken Bow they were sending coded messages inside of their own blood. This is in addition to having space travel and presumably warp technology before humans did.

General Kahless (who I stubbornly remain to believe was only named after the Emperor) may very well have built the first orbital station, and used it to contain the warring tribes. If he had, I would guess that it was at least the second time such a thing was done. I think that especially with no outsiders to fight, the houses would have gone back to fighting eventually. Think about it, there are still house disputes and blood feud to this very day, seen all the way up to the TNG/DS9 era. Remember that the closest that Klingons have to a concept of peace is a period of rest between fighting.

As for life spans, until the plot device was needed for Blood Oath, all we had to work with was FASA and that put the maximum for an Imperial at 65 years old.

[El Payaso Malo]

I try to stick to canon as much as possible, while still doing my speculating.

But who is "General" Kahless?

...but I fail to see any evidence that Klingons were at the same technological level as humans at the same time.

Every single legend ever uttered on Star Trek EVER has suggested a medieval setting for the time Kahless lived. No mention of spacecraft, no mention of aliens (except the Hur'q, but it is suggested they arrived after the time of Kahless), no mention of disruptors or projectile weapons of any kind. Not even transporters, cars or pain sticks. Swords, buildings and boats. That's the technology that is mentioned during and before the time of Kahless. Seems medieval to me.

[qurgh_]

Every single legend ever uttered on Star Trek EVER has suggested a medieval setting for the time Kahless lived. No mention of spacecraft, no mention of aliens (except the Hur'q, but it is suggested they arrived after the time of Kahless), no mention of disruptors or projectile weapons of any kind. Not even transporters, cars or pain sticks. Swords, buildings and boats. That's the technology that is mentioned during and before the time of Kahless. Seems medieval to me.

It's not suggested, it's plainly stated. The Hur'q took the Sword of Kahless to the Gamma quadrant, where is was later found by Kang/Worf/Dax.

The time of Kahless was clearly a time before any kind of ranged weapon. Kahless, as the legend goes, created the betleH. This weapon gave him the edge he needed to overcome Molor. If Molor had a gun or explosives, there is no way a sword could help change the tide of the battle.

The Star Trek: Klingon Academy video game states that the Klingons got Warp technology from the Hur'q. I've always gone along with that concept, since it seemed to be a logical explanation of how the Klingons wen't from sword to spaceships in less time than Earth did. By the time of Enterprise the Klingons already had a large Empire and technology far more advanced than Starfleet and even the Vulcans.

[El Payaso Malo]

The Star Trek: Klingon Academy video game states that the Klingons got Warp technology from the Hur'q. I've always gone along with that concept, since it seemed to be a logical explanation of how the Klingons wen't from sword to spaceships in less time than Earth did. By the time of Enterprise the Klingons already had a large Empire and technology far more advanced than Starfleet and even the Vulcans.

I still feel it could go either way as far as how the Klingons achieved warp drive. But them having taken it from invaders seems the likeliest choice, I'll admit.

What do mean "far more advanced?" The cloaking device reference was WAY anachronistic in that show, because earlier episodes established that the Klingons acquired it through their brief alliance with Romulus like a century later. But barring that, I can't think of what you may be referring to (unless it's the coded message in DNA, but did it outright say the Vulcans couldn't do that?).

[qurgh_]

What do mean "far more advanced?" The cloaking device reference was WAY anachronistic in that show, because earlier episodes established that the Klingons acquired it through their brief alliance with Romulus like a century later. But barring that, I can't think of what you may be referring to (unless it's the coded message in DNA, but did it outright say the Vulcans couldn't do that?).

The Klingons had access to at least photo torpedoes and disruptors (ship and handheld) when Starfleet was only just building it's first warp 5 ship. They also had fully working transporters, which Starfleet was only just starting to put into service. At the point Enterprise started the Klingon Empire had already conquered numerous worlds. To me, at least, this says that they were more technologically advance than United Earth was. Although that gap is quickly closed once the Federation is created due to the rapid sharing of technology that occurred.

[El Payaso Malo]

I have only seen maybe eleven episodes of Enterprise, but at that time, Starfleet only represented Earth and the Vulcans were withholding technology from them. Couldn't Vulcan have had those things while Earth didn't? I even remember T'Pol remarking about Starfleet's top of the line monitor "Vulcan children play with toys more advanced" or something to that effect.

And if the Klingons were more advanced than the Vulcans, then I would assume it's because they acquired technology from annexed worlds or through exchanges with the rare ally.